Forum Replies Created
March 7, 2010 at 11:02 am #9751
We probably need to take a look at WAM-V again. More data is in. It’s exceedingly effective with good sea keeping, excellent fuel range and modularity. If this can be mass produced it gives us a basic very stable mobile home sized sea stead. It may become the jeep or flat bed truck of the open ocean. As essential to sea steading, Oceanography and pacific islands development as the tractor is to farming. It gives me the feeling that we may be seeing a key technology. See: http://www.wam-v.com/
Yes its powered and fueled but the fuel efficiency is such that as a sea stead it could loiter for years on a tank of fuel. (Actually that would be a problem given the possibility that the fuel may go bad.) Hydrogen fuel could be an option.
In sea stead configuration it would be larger. Perhaps 50% longer and wider with a larger ‘pod’ under the arch and some Porous decking on top and either side of the pod. The ladder up the back arch could be fully enclosed or caged for safety. This would give us about 5 by 10 square meters. ~50 m2 (539 sq ft) enclosed plus about the same on the top deck. Some stowage in the pontoons near the motors may be expected.
It would ride the biggest rogue waves like a polynesian catamaran. I.e. people in side may come away with a few bruises but that’s all. A warning ladar/ radar, padded furnishings and seat belts would help.
One nice feature is that in calm water it can straddle other smaller vessels such as fish farms, buoys, robot boats full of cargo, party decks and my floating farm units. This makes cargo handling a cinch.
There’s no price data but my guess is that with some mass production of subsystems and standardisation it could be under a million. Still a little pricey for a normal family but cheaper than some ideas we’re looking at. If the company finds a mass market in the pacific islands and other places the cost could drop to the price of a house. The high tech materials are getting cheaper very fast. Carbon Fibre sea steads is not out of the question.
I’m doing a three dimentional full scale model in Second Life to figger out how much decking might be possible. See wesley farspire in SL.
For everyone’s information I was involved with the original Oceania Project in a small way. I’m also in several space organisations. And I have a Degree in sustainable Development, sustainable agriculture and renewable energy, water and sewerage.March 7, 2010 at 9:44 am #9749
A Swath hull, small waterplane area twin hull, would have both the dynamics of a spar with the sub surface volume needed for variable loads and stable buoyancy. A deep Swath hull with the legs reaching 5 meters under water would handle many waves. If we make the hull above water almost air tight with few decks and protrusions that can catch a wave then the biggest waves can wash over with out destroying the vessel. Yes you would need seat belts and warning systems but both are available. The warning can come from distributed USV fleet with wave logging. ladar and data relay. Only Americans and star trek captains seem to be unfamiliar with seat belts. Big rogue waves are rare. We can build day too day stability for a mean of 5 meter and storm survival for a mean of 20 m. While the houses in a tornado, hurricane or earthquake zone must be designed to not collapse. We rarely succeed or even try to make them so they take no damage and we almost never design them so you can continue the tea party while the worst or the danger rages.
I think we will also need to conscider active suspensions. Cheep truck or car like suspentions on the habitats or part of it dambing roll and heave for the quraters while we leave the sun deck and boat deck to fend for themselves.
I also have a new post on my web site discussing the question of whether one design fits all and looking at a sea stead as a fleet of systems. http://appliedimpossibilies.blogspot.com/2010/03/sea-steading-as-fleet-of-vessel-classes.html
For everyone’s information I was involved with the original Oceania Project in a small way. I’m also in several space organisations. And I have a Degree in sustainable Development, sustainable agriculture and renewable energy, water and sewerage.March 4, 2010 at 5:54 am #9710
Your ambitious with a 2 km Squared unit but it should be doable. Even Oceania was smaller.
We would need more than one sea anchor set at different depths to avoid tangling. About one per unit or one per 50 to 150 metres. That’s a forest of sea anchors. A set of weighted lines would hang below each component. One or more large sea anchors would be placed on that line at different depths.
Any sail making company or tent maker could craft the anchor. We could do it our selves but the stitching requires special equipment and skills. Professionals are better but you must shop around and find the best price. A deal to make a set of prototypes at a discount may be possible.
Each structure can also be moored together by lines with alternating buoys and sinkers and plate like sea anchors these resist vertical forces and the buoy sinkers system converts that into horizontal drag. Thus the whole system (city) acts as one with a huge sea anchor area. If your going for a very big structure I don’t know of that’s not a problem.
See my latest blog post on how I think we will end up doing sea stead systems.
Ten months it a good sign, your not in a rash rush.
Note: We also have wave powered boats that could be added to counter any remaining drift.
For everyone’s information I was involved with the original Oceania Project in a small way. I’m also in several space organisations. And I have a Degree in sustainable Development, sustainable agriculture and renewable energy,water and sewerage.March 2, 2010 at 11:00 am #9690hembergb wrote:
I was only today studying the major currents and the dynamics of them. Is there someway we could also use them as a power generation tool, maybe attach small generators to the sails.
Yes if we have currenct running at the right speed but it would not be very economical. We will have an abundance of energy options including solar, some wind in the mid after noon. Assuming we are on the western pacific equator. We will have biofuels options, Have you seen my musings on farming the seas surface with floating ponds and bouyant algae bladders? http://vacoyecology.com/Bubble_ponds_fluke_boats.html
I would favour the available high density energy technologies first over such a low energy density technology. Wave power is also available. Even in the Gulf Stream the energy density is very low and the current mills that are proposed have sail areas or blade areas measured in acres per kilowatt. The best we could expect form these currents is a few watts. If were running with the wind on a sailing seastead/ship then a sea anchor could charge batteries. There is one available commercially but I can’t find the site. But thats not station holding.
Sea anchors are good for staying put not much else. Lets solve one problem at a time, mate.
For everyone’s information I was involved with the original Oceania Project in a small way. I’m also in several space organisations. And I have a Degree in sustainable Development, sustainable agriculture and renewable energy, water and sewerage.January 27, 2010 at 1:31 pm #9373
I think a small scale flip ship with most of the living space in two hinged pods would work.
Like flip ship this is ballasted into a stable spar but because the pods are hinged there is little disruption.
For mobility it traverses the ocean like flip ship.
Each pod is an independant life boat in an emergency. Like the rescue boats in my last post above.
Each has three to six rooms with the two pods combining to the usable volume of a house. Bridge, kitchen, dining and lounge in the port pod and Two bedroms, study & backup bridge in the starboard pod. WC and water in both for emergency.
The bearing for the flip would be a large truck axel set. The pods are changed like wheels on a very big truck.
The top of the spar and the upper surface when its floating flat could be furnished with a folding deck.
Also posted on it here: http://appliedimpossibilies.blogspot.com/2010/01/sea-steading-design-based-on-flip-ship.html
January 27, 2010 at 10:07 am #9379
For the submarine fans I already created a section on the wiki. Ages ago. Its still not quite working to specification.
The key idea is to go down a wave amplitude or two where the energy is minimal but leave a tethered buoy on the surface running as a air breathing power plant and snorkle. To surface air is pumped down by the buoy.
I’m workig on graphics but have computer problems.Will fix that tomorrow (or perhaps go insane and screem at the PC for a day or two. 😀 )
For everyone’s information I was involved with the original Oceania Project in a small way. I’m also in several space organisations. And I have a Degree in sustainable Development, sustainable agriculture and renewable energy, water and sewerage. I also have a water related phobia so our sea steads must be safe! lol.January 27, 2010 at 8:57 am #9377
But this may be going to far. Nice try though. Its a stone boat made from granite.
If granite can be made to float concrete is easy. Particularly with a combination of stainless steel rebar [which is getting cheaper], fibreglass and plastic fibers and an outer layer of rubberised plastic tape. Tie it together inside and out with high strength materials.
We also need to think about structural polystyrene foam. High compression strength yet buoyant. Carbon fiber and fullerine nano tubes are also getting cheaper. At some point they will be cheaper than steel. http://www.fiberforge.com/
The Americans in the group need to pay a visit to fiberforge people and ask about boating. A sea stead with a fiberforge unit on the factory deck could build almost anything.
One option is titanium, I’ve already posted somewhere on the new research making that cheaper. The FFC Cambridge process. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FFC_Cambridge_process
The first generation Sea Steads may be relatively expensive but as the idea catches on and new materials come along then our options expand. I think any sea steading community will have a mix of vessels.
For everyone’s information I was involved with the original Oceania Project in a small way. I’m also in several space organisations. And I have a Degree in sustainable Development, sustainable agriculture and renewable energy, water and sewerage. Oh and I cant swim. lol.January 25, 2010 at 1:42 pm #9340
Something like this with a retractable out rigger and deployable fairweather pontoon would work.
The wave goes over it. Or it goes through the wave. I’d add a high bow and stern to cut the waves. This has no deck or open hatch to catch the water. A simple pellum with blige pump seperates air and water like a jet skii.
Seat belts and padding would help. Remote USV units, smaller robot boats 2 km away, to tell it the wave state nearby would help. That way you know the big ones coming and have time to prepare. On calm seas the retracting or detachable pontoon out rigger makes this a wide long trimaran.
Why build a giant when several small hulls and some robotics can give you the same volume and deck. It breaks and and scatters only to reform when the rouge wave/ storm waves pass. In the doldrums and the pacific equitorial waters the dangrous waves would only be 1 to 3 days in the year with warning. The sea would be flat or low swell for 8-10 months of the year. I remember we had maps somewhere of mean wave hights. It showed areas where the nunbers were under two metres with low frequency. We need life boats on our sea stead, someone will make that law anyway, so the sea stead may as well be a cluster of life boats.
Maybe not orange. I like green.
January 22, 2010 at 8:39 am #9308
Small is beautiful if we can mass produce kelp farms.
Good points above JL Frusha.
I favour smaller scale, stiffer pipes and “ropes” with break away links. Allow them to break in a controlled location for easy repair. Plastic mimicking a bamboo structure.
The pumps don’t bring up silt; it is just rich water from below the thermocline. About 100-300 m deep. The sea bed in sea stead country is 3000-5000 m deep. A loose plastic curtain would stop currents carrying off the rich water. Microalgae bloom with the kelp.
The mollusks feed on microalgae in the water. There are a dozen species. Oysters are not included so no pearls. They’re not an open ocean species. All mollusk farmers I know of now use plastic mesh bags and these are easier to handle . The labour costs are falling. The bags are just hung beside the kelp.
I would also add fish houses. [my term] These are buoyant hollow structures that have holes in them. These shelter small fish and fry allowing more species diversity and more juveniles growing to maturity.
For everyone’s information I was involved with the original Oceania Project in a small way. I’m also in several space organisations. And I have a Degree in sustainable Development, sustainable agriculture and renewable energy,water and sewerage.January 21, 2010 at 10:37 am #9123
Kelp to fuel is a technology we should try. Particularly if we grow the kelp on bouyant structures with upwelling pumps to fertilize the kelp. You also get fish, mollusks and kelp fiber which is one of the most resiliant matterials known to man.
A few hectares would make us self sufuficent in energy. We can make methane, methanol, polyethalyne, hydrocarbons and even glucose from this feed stock.
Note these date from the 1980’s and the kelp farm has a sea stead at its heart in most cases.
For everyone’s information I was involved with the original Oceania Project in a small way. I’m also in several space organisations. And I have a Degree in sustainable Development, sustainable agriculture and renewable energy,water and sewerage.January 11, 2010 at 3:58 am #9168
Actually the plastic you mentioned is mentioned in my post, but I used the proper name and have bookmarked the manufacturer. I’m checking with them soon to ask if its salt tolerant and marine safe [non toxic in contact with sea water].
I want to go full size with the ark based arcology because I think we will need such things. It wont be a first generation sea stead and it will have more constraints than a small group sea stead. The more people you have the more rules you need.
A one fifth scale unit would be 90 ft x 15 ft x 9 ft. That’s ~27 m x 4 m x 2.74 m. About the size of a long bus. It only gives you one deck not counting the bow and stern castles. It would be good for seas up to 3 meters or so.
Pre-stressed concrete is a good idea but I’m hoping we can do it with a non corrosive material. Glass fibre ‘rope’, titanium, aluminium or carbon fibre. All are getting much cheaper. See the wiki on materials for discussion on reinforcing concrete with various non corrosion susceptible materials.January 8, 2010 at 11:28 am #9126
Would seastar work better if it were deeper? Assuming 2 meter normal waves and a bouyant structure with a swath like hull at the surface. A keel with a seastar grid 3 meters down would be more stable but would damp the waves less but bouys floating up from the stars arm would damp the waves.
January 8, 2010 at 11:21 am #9125
Ellmer your quite right. A flexable structure with a little built in play and give, will work as a good breakwall. Its my favoured option.
Move with the sea and damp it down enough in the process to give you areas of flat water for those that get sea sick. Also a floating wave barrier does not need to be continous. Some geometries like the one below will work. Where the waves pass under and through the gaps in the floating pond fields their velocities become miss matched. Destructive interference flattens the waves in a standing zone.
Note: Not everyone is susceptible to sea sickness. Put the old sea dogs out on the edge and those with jelly tummies in the sheltered areas.
January 8, 2010 at 10:15 am #9124
Nice idea but would it be stable.
I’m looking at subsurface rafts and floating bubbles. It may be possible attach bouys and netting to mangrove like plants add plastic below to contain fertilizer and create afloating island that way. It would not have a solid surface but it would support some croping systems while damping waves. A sea stead with walk ways sheltered in the middle of this green reef would be protected from the waves. The green reef would be many meters across. A very wide floating, living breakwall.
I believe there was once a floating forest with several species of tree but their extinct today. Lepidendron and Sigillaria species. These fossels all have hollow vegetative roots for bouyancy and I suspect they interlocked for stability. I have a paper on it on a creationist web site. This is what we think it may have looked like.
Even if they didn’t exist they could some day given genetic engineering. However I can see how they may be recreated using basic engineering. Living systems as the source of torsion and resilincy modern platics as the source of tension and bouyancy.
PS. May paper is http://creation.com/the-salinity-of-a-floating-forest
Not this one. But its very cool.January 8, 2010 at 8:12 am #9122J.L.Frusha wrote:
A 1-cow methane digester can produce enough methane to cook a meal a day, for 1 person, not including the persons waste input. It only takes a 55 gal drum and a few innertubes to do that… It’s in an old Mother Earth News.
Good design but three things:
UV sterilisation is safer for the fish farm aquaponics. Chlorine and fish don’t always mix. Also salt chlorination is not perfect with freshwater systems there’s a risk of saline cross contamination.
I would add an overflow tank to avoid dumping anything over the side into the sea. Its not viable to dump any wastes if you live on or in the sea. It leads to accidents and bad habits. Not to mention flack from the greenies.
Also the design needs aerator with a tall chimney like air venting system to vent smells clear of the sea stead.
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