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  • #23319
    Avatar of KatOnTri
    KatOnTri
    Participant

    Ok, let me re-phrase the question…. does anyone know of sites where ships can be anchored indefinately because their draft is so deep it prevents them from entering any port, or even getting closer to any land mass? This wouldn’t be lightering, where a vessel may be temporarily while being unloaded. I see “lightering zones” on some charts, but if my seastead isn’t being unloaded, can i still park it there, with no one aboard, while i take a go-fast boat to shore for groceries?
     
    This has ramifications for entering a country, if you cannot get your vessel to the dock because the water there isn’t deep enough. I figure a customs inspector can drive out to see your place, and decide there if they can tolerate you visiting, but while you are in customs arranging such a visit, your vessel will be unmanned in their territorial waters.

    #23318
    Avatar of KatOnTri
    KatOnTri
    Participant

    So it’s only for billionaires, someone with money to burn 10,000′s of gallons of fuel each month, and pay a crew. Plus the $millions cost of the sphere or ship. It’s not happening here, there’s no reason to. This is really getting depressing, Ellmer. I don’t have $millions.

    #23315
    Avatar of KatOnTri
    KatOnTri
    Participant

    Concrete is made of things dug out of the land. There is not enough land to make enough concrete to move all of humanity to the oceans. And you keep giving dreams of 100 years or more from now, i keep asking about today or tomorrow. Some 80% of Australia is unpopulated, and there’s places in the usa you can drive for an hour and not see anyone. There’s no land shortage. Strangely, there’s some shortage of international ocean, there’s only two small spots in the Gulf Of Mexico that are not in usa, Mexican, or Cuban EEZ. And i can imagine the ocean floor will soon be off limits to everyone.
     
    Yet when i ask you practical questions of how one makes the proper mix of cement, or joining floating cement parts, or any hydrodynamic question about such massive amounts of floating concrete, or legal questions a seastead will face, you have no answers.
     
    I read two recent reports yesterday about hurricanes in the GOM, one from the usa military and one for oil platforms in the GOM, and both mentioned common 16m/50ft waves, and peaks of 28m/90ft. Since those were previously considered 500yr or 1000yr events, but they have occured several times in the GOM since 1995, i’d damn sure like to know what the dynamic water pressures are on various sizes and shapes. One report noted oil pipelines buried over 6ft in the ocean floor were scoured up and moved 2 miles (i have mentioned this before), tells me the bottom on the continenetal shelf, or at water depts shallower than 60m/200ft are too unstable and unsafe to put your submerged or floating concrete spheres. Even if the sphere survives, the inhabitants probably will not.

    #23311
    Avatar of KatOnTri
    KatOnTri
    Participant

    Fine, Ellmer, WHAT BUSINESS will be on those floating concrete bubbles?

    #23309
    Avatar of KatOnTri
    KatOnTri
    Participant

    Khalifa port was not built because it has potential. It was built, as an ISLAND, to serve an existing purpose. The need for a larger, deeper, better sited commercial port existed. It was not built for potential.
     
    Show me any reason someone would build any seastead off the south coast, east coast, or west coast of the usa. So far the only reason anyone has gone out there with big money is because there is proven oil to drill for, not because there is potential for it.

    #23305
    Avatar of KatOnTri
    KatOnTri
    Participant

    Ellmer said

    A business development plan is key – not just floating out something…

    But what business plan? There is no one out there to do business with. There is no reason to be out there, so selling space on seasteads is not a business model. You cannot build a city with individual underwater homes or businesses, how will you ever get out of the house or down to the business? I cannot wait on someone with a $billion to provide a place for me to be out there, because 1) they won’t do it, and 2) they’d charge more than i can pay. Maybe the people who with “no transcendence to a powerfull floating city” simply want to life peacefully with no political drama.
     
    Edit: i think we need a way for people to rent/lease/buy Ocean’s scheme, modified so they can tolerate a small hurricane, or burn tons of fuel to outrun it.

    #23299
    Avatar of KatOnTri
    KatOnTri
    Participant

    But Ellmer, you are going back to building Rome, or Venice, in a day, on one platform, ready for everyone to move in. It’s not going to happen.
     
    What might happen is someone finds a way their family can be safe out on the water in all conditions, and another family rafts up, and then another family. And then hundreds of people. And then they are making money and decide to form a legal union and pool money like a condo, and make a single floatie big enough for all of them. This may not be the most efficient way to float 100 people at once on the water, but so far no one has build a safe floatie for a hurricane, or intentionally physically gathered 100 people to make one working society.

    #23296
    Avatar of KatOnTri
    KatOnTri
    Participant

    Ocean, i believe i can make a one killowatt water “windmill” cheaper than i can put up a kw of solar or wind generator. Plus the water flow there is unaffected by it being dark half the time. Solar panels work best if you want to stay put or go where you want, but if you can anchor you can put up windmills or watermills. If you cannot anchor, the wind and water will blow you around more than they will make power for you. That’s part of the charm of the Cay Sal, it’s not that deep that if you drop a mill you can retrieve it, it’s not coral so anchoring is permitted, it’s shallow enough that no ocean ships can get to you, and from what i hear it has a strong constant current in places.
     
    But i was running some exciting numbers on a ever so slightly unrelated scheme involving concrete and slipforming and such, and i remember this thread, and Elan saying “or a cement anchor, a buoy and a leaky rowboat”, which implies a one-person seastead, and that person not being there for making trips to land for supplies or to make sales. So i was running numbers thru the calculators, and thought i’d see if this thread with Elan’s solo (and my solo) plan for a seastead somewhere west of the Cay Sal (which sorta includes the Gulf of Mexico), could be woken up again.
     
    Lets say Elan and i find a way to make it possible for us to settle our separate little patches of the ocean, politely sharing the ocean with whoever is traveling thru. He has his buoy and stuff hanging off it, i have whatever i have and stuff floating all around it, and we need to make a trip to land. We cannot be in two places at once, so we must leave all our worldly possessions floating on the high seas, as we go buy toilet paper, ramen noodles, cheap wine, and sunblock, and perhaps sell seaweed or a swordfish or something. If Ocean has his houseboat parked off some lovely island in the Keys, and no one is aboard for 6 hours, he’s got the same problem: his tv and generator is going to disappear.
     
    So what’s to stop anyone from stealing our buoys and radios and and other things while we are away? What’s to stop the USCG from declaring the seastead to be without a pilot, and sink our stuff? I don’t know about Elan’s stuff, but mine won’t work properly at the bottom of the ocean.

    #23294
    Avatar of KatOnTri
    KatOnTri
    Participant

    Ocean, take note: In researching how to attach things to the floating concrete, i have seen 3 ways of doing approximately how this place does it. In common with post tensioning, the cable is threaded thru pvc pipe embedded in the pour, and the opening in each floatie is sealed as the pieces are pulled together. To aid replacing the cable if it deteriorates, the seals are also removeable and replaceable. For allowing movement, the cables are simply kept tensioned with springs. In the case of this company, the cables are in one plane and form a hinge to allow each section to float up and down with swells, but resist differential lateral motion. A deduction i made is the cable must thread thru the shell portion of the concrete, and not thru the crushable honeycomb portion (or the embedded poly foam). I also deduce the aluminum this company uses as the form perimeter is there so the top edge corner of the concrete is not damaged if the hinged joint is in the trough of a swell, which would place intense pressures and some rubbing motion on the top edge of the concrete. Essentially then, there is no concrete-to-concrete contact, the floats touch each other via the aluminum surround, which also would hold the fenders and any other accessories of the dock. And i deduce a “spring box” could be in each floatie for attaching to an existing floatie, without requiring an entire preexisting dock system be rethreaded, and this would be useful for semi-permanent dock-ups.
     
    Now…… how is the aluminum surround kept in place on the concrete? Is it simply attached to aluminum rebar thru the pour to the aluminum on the opposite side? What about corrosion from the concrete and trapped salt water?

    #23293
    Avatar of KatOnTri
    KatOnTri
    Participant

    I also ran across a more recent concrete barge, the oil drill “ship” Orlan :

    The Orlan platform is being used to develop the southwestern flank of the main Chayvo zone from offshore. This reinforced-concrete substructure can easily withstand pressure from gigantic ice ridges that can reach as high as a six story building.

    Links to Orlan here.

    #23292
    Avatar of KatOnTri
    KatOnTri
    Participant

    I was just looking around for data on concrete/cement drydocks, use and construction methods, and found the following concerning drydocks in the early 1940′s in the usa:

    ARDC Construction. — Eight of these docks were built on the East Coast, at Wilmington, N.C., and five of the West Coast, at San Pedro, Calif., in dry basins excavated for the purpose. Pile-supported platforms were constructed on which the hulls were built. Forms were of wood and masonite, and were held to close tolerances to avoid wide inaccuracies in fin displacement. Concrete was composed of stone or gravel aggregate, with about 8.4 bags of cement per yard and a water-cement ratio of five gallons per bag of cement to secure maximum density and a 28-day strength of more than 4,000 pounds per square inch. A total of 3,300 cubic yards of concrete was required for each dock.
     

     
    ARDC Service. — Five of the self-contained docks of this class were towed to advance bases in the Pacific or to Pearl Harbor, where they were utilized with great success in the repair of many combat-damaged vessels. In service, these drydocks proved unexpectedly popular, because of their relatively great mass compared with their lifting capacity. This characteristic lowered the center of gravity and also made the dock exceptionally stable. It was not necessary to admit water into the wing walls to sink the docks, and additional space for machinery and quarters was thus made available. These docks also proved exceptionally watertight and required practically no hull maintenance.
     
    The ARD docks, in particular, were fine freight carriers and seldom left for their overseas bases with an empty center chamber. On the contrary, they usually carried their own work barges, small boats, dredges, cranes, locomotives, piling, and other supplies too numerous to mention.

    Near as i can tell, the basic concrete floating drydocks were more successful than the concrete ships, as no drydock was damaged in towing or in contact with other ships.

    #23290
    Avatar of KatOnTri
    KatOnTri
    Participant

    Yes, you see it correctly in the top picture, the bottom picture is ~.040/1mm (no one believed i could stick weld such thin steel, but there’s tricks). The 1mm steel is pretty sturdy in the curves, you see the hammer laying there, i used to knock the bow into precise position on the pontoon before welding. I showed the pics because you said “The forming of round shapes (especially Sphere Habitats) is a bit tricky in steel plating”, but i can do it. So i figure if Ocean can stucco a wooden barge to protect it, i can make a nice looking steel floating whatever, and do the same. Honestly, i know i will not live forever, and my steel boat will not float forever, the cure will be to make my own “incubator for research” on the water, so i can make a semi-submergeable floating concrete drydock. Such a drydock would be very useful in making and launching new seasteads out where there is no interference. There have been successful concrete floating drydocks made.

    #23288
    Avatar of KatOnTri
    KatOnTri
    Participant

    I’m going to keep an eye on Ocean, see how his cement barge things for the houseboat work. Nothing says i cannot experiment with cement after i am floating around. :-)
     
    I have cold bent 1/2 inch plate, and made a 4ft diameter, 10ft long, cylinder of 1/4 plate steel, and made the ribs for it:
     
    4ft dia pontoon
     
    And the bows of the little pontoons i made look truely awesome to me, seeing as how i made them of steel, all cold-formed (but the arc welding was hot, of course)
     
    bow steel pontoon boat
     
    I designed, cut, welded, painted the 16ft pontoon boat, and the tilt-bed trailer for it. And i designed and built the overhead bridge crane that moves it all around. And the building it sits in.

    #23285
    Avatar of KatOnTri
    KatOnTri
    Participant

    I went to the store a few days ago to buy fiber cement. They had decided to not sell it any more. I can’t keep fighting to have things my way, so i give up and will make my personal little floating castle of 100% steel. The steel is actually lighter, slightly cheaper, and i can disassemble it for transport to the water. Sure cement might last forever, but if i must put steel reenforcing in 1″/2.5cm cement, it’s not going to last much longer than if i used steel and no cement. And i do not need to wait up a week or three for it to set to strength. And the cement would never have the tensile strength of steel, an issue i was having problems with.

    #23281
    Avatar of KatOnTri
    KatOnTri
    Participant

    Ellmer, it’s as if you are using this forum only as a place to promote your own site.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 244 total)