Forum Replies Created
March 7, 2014 at 12:49 pm #23056
Ocean says: “If you buy or build a boat that doesn’t have a waste treatment (or holding) system, you can build it your own by buying a holding tank and all the other parts…”
So i cannot weld one up from some plate i have laying around?
What about a homemade version of http://www.sun-mar.com/ ?March 7, 2014 at 9:23 am #23054
Ocean, you mentioned pump-out tanks, and the uscg inspecting for them and their condition (being present and locked). What about other technologies, such as drying, composting, chemical, and anything i have not heard of? Even small details could be appreciated. For instance, i have yet to find a cross-section drawing of how a pumpout tank should be built!March 5, 2014 at 7:18 pm #23050
Ocean, i was thinking of the Legacy. Didn’t the EPA etc want to fine him for every square foot of mud he disturbed, including the mud disturbed when the hurricane put his boat in the Marine Reserve? And make him transplant ocean “grasses” back where the mud was scraped off the sand?
How does one know where it is ok to disturb mud? There’s so many overlapping parks, reserves, sanctuaries, etc from Ft Myers down to Dry Tortuga and around up to Miami!March 5, 2014 at 3:47 pm #23041
Conchy Bowe’s may not be so successful: http://www.city-data.com/fl-restaurants/CONCHY-BOWE-S-BAIT-BARGE.html Looks like the last inspection was 2010, their facebook page has been closed two years now, i don’t see anything online for them dated 2014.
Since i do not know what is being covered by businesses out there now, i need to get there and find out. Otherwise, not a big deal, because i have no investors to make happy. I think i will be happiest working with the ocean and the things floating on them, not primarily the humans. Perhaps i’ll be selling floating things. Who knows?March 5, 2014 at 9:23 am #23038
Ocean, i understand your frustration with Ellmer, but still: ouch!
I do agree, at a ground floor level, the basic question is: will it float or sink, and under what conditions? The next question is: will it pass a boat inspection? It’s not about the shape of the windows, the size of your webpages, or what floor the spa is located on, or how good you are with photoshop.
What is the water depth around Wisteria Island (or other popular anchor sites)? I mean really, at low tide, in real life, without looking at charts.
Wasn’t there a large private ship, Greek or Russian, years ago, driven into shallow water in a sea-grassy area by a storm, that took a year to get floating again, due to regulations regarding damage to the ocean floor at that point? They were fined $millions and had to transplant(?!) mud and grass if i recall correctly. What was the designation of that area, so we’ll know to not drop anchor there? Is the rule of thumb “drop anchor only if it’s sand with nothing growing on it”? If one can anchor at location X, can one touch the bottom there in any other way too?March 4, 2014 at 7:34 am #23033
I guess what i am stumbling over is the profitable business is only a water-related business. And that the most investor-friendly has a resturant with chef, liquor service, it has a aqua-bus system for moving groups of people around, it is a scuba and snorkle dive shop, watercraft rental shop, and has a marketing shop doing online and bricks-n-mortar advertising and ticket sales. It certainly has someone doing interface to other businesses for supplies, and government agencies for permits. They may also have a hotel license if they carry customers overnight. Plus if they do not own their own waterfront land, they need to deal with someone where the customer parks their car and waits on the aqua-bus to arrive. Plus the captain of the charter aqua-bus must be a licensed captain, and the bus must have insurance, these are not cheap. To compete with that i think is not a small start to online business.
I was going to build a space to live on (so i will be there full time), go out and test what i build, and stock more than i need, so if i am out at a dive site (i was thinking of a sub wreck off Tampa, actually), then i can make side money selling groceries, fuel, and renting dock space. This plan is much simpler, much cheaper to start. I was going to build more of whatever works, but not on land where there is much interference, i was going to build seastead out on the seastead, so no more need to truck boat parts 100′s of miles before they get to the water.
Neither plan comes with a guarantee, but one has much less risk, and is more “ground floor”.March 3, 2014 at 5:58 pm #23030
Ocean, you can get to the ICS from Lake Worth, i believe. I thought your barges would be too wide (over 8ft) to travel by truck. I am making mine sectional to be transported without special permits.
All those boats around Wisteria Island, they can anchor there free, with no permits or legal actions? I was under the impression all that area was protected wildlife, and even touching the bottom was serious bad news. From what i heard, stirring up any mud, dropping anchor, could get one arrested. I see no boats on anchor north of Fleming Key, is there a reason for that? If i see no boats anchored in an area, is that because it’s forbidden? There’s a shallow seamount, just ripe for anchoring on, between Marco Island and Key West, but i see that’s old ammo dumping ground and active military training?
I don’t know about anyone else, but i could use a gold mine of information about what’s actually going on down there.March 3, 2014 at 11:04 am #23027
I emailed Fane Lozman to ask about how his court case would impact anyone else on a liveaboard, and his reply is very short:
If it has no engine or other means of propulsion, is dependent on shore
utilities, then it is a floating home and comes under state jurisdiction.
Which still leaves open the question of a conventional house on land, with it’s own well, generator, and septic system being called a vessel! I suppose his case revolved around his house not only being unable to move on it’s own power, but also haveing zero utilities built in, like electricity, and needing land connections to be habitable (for sewer and drinking water).March 3, 2014 at 8:37 am #23026
Ocean, you said “you bring your starboard float down”, but bring it down from where? If you have land next to the water for which to build seasteads, lets get on with it! I mean, lets *you* get on with it! Driving to the Keys for me is about four times more distance than i need to haul a boat from where i am.
My plan would be more like bootstrapping a business making more of the seastead, on the seastead, sorta the only good reason to use 1/4 inch(6mm) plate steel for the deck. Plus i have it left over from all the trimaran parts i had to leave in Fla when i got ripped off 2 years ago when trying to locate there. I had to leave the two 16ft/4.9m pontoon boat hulls, and one 4ft/1.2m diameter tri ama bow and the construction jig it was built in.
Without an incubator, or my own land on the water, or friendly terms with a marina, i even need to build my own portable “pond” to test with, and that’s quite the drag on time and finances. To unfold amas for the one runabout (my aqua- pickup truck), at least under the bridge crane, the amas can’t be more than 14ft long, else there’s no room for them in my build site. If you have the space to “bring your starboard float down” from, i say start building tomorrow! Shoot, i think, if in a no-interference zone around the corner and up the coast, i’d use discount air mattress/beds as floats under a plywood deck to get started!
That said, like the Aussy Quicksilver business Ellmer mentioned, MMK is a hide-behind-island in bad weather sort of deal, meaning it also much have strong reliable engines and plenty of fuel, that is going to add a lot of overhead cost. I certainly do not know the area down there like you do, but the tv news this morning was showing yachts broken loose and being washed onto beaches from a storm somewhere. Even if you do anchor well in the ICW, the first boat that breaks loose will be a battering ram to break up your boat. Is the only location for a Quicksilver business going to be around the islands in full view of land? Do you get a fast-food resturant business license on a boat the same way you get one for land?March 2, 2014 at 4:22 pm #23021
Ellmer, you mean like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cement_board ? That stuff is pretty durable, but it can be easily broken with a hammer. And it is not cheap. I have used it inside and outside the house, it takes weather very well. From looking at it, it does not appear to be fiber reinforced, only fiberglass cloth covered.March 2, 2014 at 10:16 am #23019
Ellmer wrote: “you can keep it just 6mm thick (if you build it right) which means very little material use of a very economic material.”
You sure about that 6mm thickness in any storm? I was thinking of 6cm for my floatation units. Even that won’t be enough for the caps where they attach, but that’s a small area and that area being 6 inches thick is better. Bags of fiber reinforced home-mix cement is not so cheap here, but it’s acceptable for small projects, it will make floats cheaper and more durable than metals, i certainly agree with you on using cement for that purpose, and hope to try out building one when the weather gets warmer here. I am not so sure about building thin on larger projects like Ocean is planning, even reinforced with wood inside as he will do, but once i am on the water, i want to try with steel inside.
I think the three of us (and others?) have good overlapping ideas, areas we could be collaborating, which is why i mentioned, for any investor listening, that at least a year spent loaning us the use of suitable ramp and dock space in a place we can make noise, would be a benefit to seasteading. It’s rather difficult to see moving from land to sea without a staging area somewhere. The investor should look at this as a real estate investment of an ocean-side community space, not hitched firmly to seasteading, but open-ended in that possibility should it pay out. If Ocean’s project becomes commercially profitable for him, he might lease the space he used for free the first year, same with Ellmer and me. Even if we move to offshore construction, i cannot see us moving those construction materials through a conventional marina. On this lake, there is no place i can move 20ft steel, and no place Ellmer could move concrete to a boat in deep water. I suppose that shall be the end of me promoting this scenario though.March 2, 2014 at 9:44 am #23018
Ocean said: “If you decide to participate, I don’t have any problems with you crashing on the houseboat, if the actual members at that time will agree upon that too. Also, since is most likely that the houseboat might need some work for the purpose of our project, if you can do some work aboard, I think that will be welcomed. But when the houseboat is up and running you will have to move,”
I have been burned in Florida once already over living space, i cannot agree to a committee deciding when and where i will be homeless. I wasn’t offering the building materials of my own project to be used for MMK, altho sharing and swapping materials, tools, and know-how would naturally be possible (no sense in both of us buying a cement mixer if we can share). I was saying i am going forwards with my own place on the water, regardless of investors. You should go ahead with building too, you could build the full-sized bargettes for your own use around your existing boat, and see how they act in various waters, even before you buy a houseboat for them. If you can lease space out on the hook, you can certainly anchor them there and not live in the marina, that is seasteading, no?
There is a rule of thumb in the usa for investors or banks: if you need the money, you cannot get it. But if you have built your own party barge, and can rent it out, what do you need investors for? That is the essence of my question on how to attract businesses to being on the water, rental of square footage becomes income for you to grow, which i think you will never get any other way. Two things i cannot get past: 1) people seem to want conventional boat type of construction for seasteads which will be bouncy as heck all the time, 2) looks like any business on the water will be only water-related. That is going to make deck-space rental contingent on 1) sea state and 2) getting money out of people too poor to rent space on land. I believe, if not for the variability and unpredictability of sea state, Ocean’s timeshare of vacation space may work, once built and advertised on the high end timeshare market, but i don’t know that a single houseboat (resembling a 1960′s mobile home) will be enough.March 1, 2014 at 7:56 pm #23010
Just had a wandering thought: would initiating a seastead business be more feasable in an area already served by commercial ferries? What if it was served by govenment ferries, such as those serving the Vancouver Canada area? I mean, would that be a way so the first seastead business in the area could avoid needing to start it’s own taxi service also? Or maybe commercial sight-seeing services could drop off customers?
Do you have a list of pro’s and con’s for this?
For instance the ferry across the mouth of Mobile Bay should never go into open ocean, they run a really bad ship: not locking the ramps in the up position, very low freeboard, the doors to the life vests are padlocked, holes in steel deck for hydraulic lines have no chafing protection collars, etc.. The Vancouver ferries are pretty big, 200+ passengers.March 1, 2014 at 2:07 pm #23009
Ocean, i’d also need a place to live while there, timesharing the houseboat for 2 weeks per year would mean i get nothing done down there, and live almost all my time where i am now. Ideally, i’d be living on what i built, with enough space to build more of them, without costing pricey space on land to build and launch. That is my incentive to complete a project thru a incubator environment, and percentage of the commercialisation of it is the benefactor’s gain. I have enough 1/4 inch steel plate and channel in the driveway right now to build 480 sq ft of deck, two 16x4ft cargo barges/floats, AND a nice lil 100hp inboard aluminum 16ft runabout. Assembly is ongoing. I just got back home from store, bought concrete to set door posts in to wall in the assembly area, it’s already roofed with a working traveling bridge crane, lumber and siding is stacked alongside.
My plan is to build more sectional barges once on the water, cement covered steel frame much like your houseboat bargettes, and 100% cast fiber-reinforced cement like Ellmer has been touting. It’s the only way i know for sure to see how each performs in real world water. The cast concrete would make for a wonderful floating drydock to launch any design effortlessly, as well as load on/off for bottom cleaning and repairs of anything that fits into it. I feel it’s a good basic practical plan: it builds in a practical way what i would like to have myself, it’s research, and from what you, me, and Ellmer have found, we just cannot wait on investors before we get anything done.
Oh, and my own barge design is unconventional, else it wouldn’t be worth doing.February 28, 2014 at 7:11 pm #23005
I don’t know, Ellmer, i think if you went to that large concrete island, and slipped airbags under it to float it away, it would break up in the first storm. Just look how thin it is, and how a wave lifting one edge will shatter it like a hard fried taco or tortilla. You and Ocean have ideas on hinges and connecting large separate floats, but then would you drive a 20 ton truck across it?, or sit a huge shipping container crane on one?, or stack shipping containers up 50ft/15m tall on one? I think it will be a very different port in heavy waves, if you build it like it is now but floating.
If islands are the way to seastead, the south Pacific is a goldmine of islands shrinking away, which you could put concrete posts on and make any kind of structure above the waves. You could sign 100 year leases with the nations that own them now. Many small island nations have tiny uninhabited islands. What about, when the fighting is completed concerning the Minerva Reefs, you get legal lease from the winner to plant a seastead there? You’d be waaaaaaay away from almost anywhere tho. Or there is a lot of islands around Indonesia, Singapore, which have growing industry. Plus if your island seastead is not welcome any more, you might have designed it to slide into the water and go somewhere else.
I wonder what the cost is of that concrete honeycomb shell island you give a picture for. If i am not mistaken, that is the top platform of a 4-post oil rig, they will (or did) float it out over the concrete columns? Unless you are exporting oil from it, how is it financially possible to afford that floating island instead of dry land?