Forum Replies Created
May 24, 2014 at 5:34 am #23568
Just two points – steel structures that are not undergoing a regular maintainance shedule in Drydock (like a ship) are rusting away and structurally gone in short time. (2-3 years) so not a base for real estate.
Second 40 foot above the waves is not safe anymore since the non linear wave model is in place – 90 foot are required to let a Draupner Wave pass below and a decent safety factor required of 1:2 would put the “required height to be Draupner safe” at 180 feet above the watersurface – a engineering nightmare that not even oil industry and its almost unlimited resources can handle…On a 40feet structure pray every night that the Draupner wave may hit somewhere else you are playing Roulette with your life… http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t45822161/draupner-new-year-wave-and-its-consequences-for-seasteading/
Conclusion: The structure you are talking about is a “scrap metal removal liability problem” instead of a “seasteading opportunity”. No bid from my side…
On the other hand a Pod like this – especially if submerged and with a access tower, would do the job to create decent living space at a decent cost in the same exposed sea area.
It is safe and “surviveable” on the surface (like a rescue pod), but it is comfortable (no wave motion) when submerged.
The cost of living space per squarefoot is by far lower in a “submerged bubble” than it is in a Draupner safe tower.May 19, 2014 at 12:57 pm #23548
Minimum safe bubble living space in the high seas…http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t57593942/james-bond-rescue-pod-resue-pod-hotel/May 19, 2014 at 12:39 pm #23547
For an investor trained to listen to specific info i probably did…but let’s return to the thread theme…Why oceanic business is the next big thing to come: http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t56680633/the-reasons-why-oceanic-business-is-the-next-big-thing-to-co/ Baystead real estate is only one aspect, seafood is another: http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t55503159/taming-the-blue-frontier/ for oceanic seafood production we can not operate with baysteads we need “bubble living space solutions” that can place a couple of safe and enjoyable livingspace cubic meters in open ocean…starting point “survival pods” http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t57593942/james-bond-rescue-pod-resue-pod-hotel/May 19, 2014 at 6:45 am #23545
Good business/bad business is about “meeting pricepoints” of a “existing market” and having a “attractive offer compared to your competitors”. Port infrastructure is needed when a economy is growing not when it is in stagnation (at best) – if we want to be taken serious in business we need to start to pay attention to that kind of “minor details”. It should be clear to everybody without much discussion that suburban housing on ships is a non viable proposal because you propose to meet “ship management cost points” at “condo income” budget – that is off the pricepoint a factor 1000. Running a ship is 80.000 USD a day! Ships are replaced after 15 years of service because they are structurally gone – you can not replace a apartment and declare the real estate gone after 15 years! There is no point in discussing such things in length…
I think MMK is very much the Tanka model – the competition is Fury (and i can’t see where the MMK as presented now is meeting pricepoints and being attractive and competitive compared to Fury.) We discussed that already here: http://www.seasteading.org/forum-list/topic/big-things-have-small-beginnings-transition-capabilty-key-feature/
The hog sag stress is a irrelevant problem for a bay based houseboat cluster. There is no such thing like a “Trump approach”. What is different in the Cartagena model is that you CAN work hurricane soft housing models as the bay is Hurricane free (which is a detail of essence) and there is also a clearly different interference situation (another detail of essence) than in Florida. The natural bay features are a lot better suitable (miles and miles of ready availabel development space protected by coral reefs and mangrove barriers) No serious competition with implemented business models to compete with. A driving emerging economy so everything is “going up”. Work costs and material costs are low, but key ready real estate prices are high – so the potential profit margen when creating real estate is high. All these factors are deal makers or deal breakers for a baystead cluster venture success / failure scenario. Projects do not succeed or fail because the floaties have a certain design – they fail or prosper for business reasons…May 18, 2014 at 3:13 pm #23542
Kat, that is exactly how real estate business development works. It is about squarefoot prices, and infrastructure cost.
I am only repeating if i get the impression that sombody has missed a important part and needs to catch up. This is why my posts normally contain links to sites where this catch up of info is provided.
The perception that there is a need to “prove the math and the numbers” is a bit all this is has been done in the early days of concrete marine engineering in a broad and well documented way. A starting point for reading it up is provided here: http://imulead.com/tolimared/concretesubmarine/anuncios/du/ Including platform honeycomb structures and tubular structures.
My baseline numbers collected in real world pilot projects in the bay of Cartagena are:
Floating real estate squarefoot building cost is 19 USD low end and 89 USD high end.
This numbers should be read as a (project implementation cost) / (total squarefoot produced in the project) figure.
The range of 19-89 USD comes from the characteristics of the building site. 19 USD is a low interference building site where you can convert money in floating squarefoot without major interference and got over the initial project start up costs. 89 USD is for a high interference building site.
It matters little if you deploy the building material in form of floating honeycomb platforms or in form of tubular structures. The general project cost is the same.
Any investor can check the real estate prices in Cartagena for oceanfront real estate and pin down the “profit margin” in a floating development project taking the production cost figures above as baseline.
By the way Donald Trump is a highrise building investor who also invests in golf club projects. My investors are more asociated to Marina development, family housing projects, and port infrastructure investments. But if he gives me a call i will definitly listen to his proposal.
The “Donald” says that it makes no sense “to explain a lot around investments” a good investment is so obvious that you don’t need to explain it…investors will come and ask for opt in – this is what investors do.
So what i do here is merely throw in the facts about Cartagena and floating structures in general…
I agree that a Baystead Cluster with Venice business model is the obvious starting point for Seasteading – The “Floating City Project seems to share that point of view…May 17, 2014 at 2:40 pm #23539
All is about perspective. To learn where settlements, trade routes and business opportunities are today the best access is to understand how they came historicly in place. To understand why a New Yorker like Donald Trump is investing in building his new skyscrapper in Cartagena (instead of Manhattan) you need to understand that this is a “informed bet” on how the future will develop. History gives you a perspective on presence and future.
The asumption that the “treatment practice of the US Coastguard for annoying weekend boaters” will automaticly apply to a baystead marine cluster in Cartagena or even to a mobile business headquarter type Eclipse doing business in the Cartagena Marine Business Cluster is somewhat flawed and not very realistic. You definitly need to drop that “boater perspective”, you also need to understand that US and Colombian marine authorities are culturally very different and that difference matters A LOT for a baystead. DIMAR the Colombian Marine Authority has “active support of all waterbased economic activity” written in article one of its function code…another “cultural reminent” of the spanish oceanic empire…
So if the US and Europe is driving citizens away with to much interference Cartagena is willing to give them a interference free space plugged into the worldwide communication backbones and tradroutes, in tropical ambient, with a floating community. I implement that with a floating development company type seasteading INC. and the Government definitly backs that.
I have miles and miles of hurricane free calmwaterspace as development area to offer. Real estate prices per squaremeter are much lower than on land and of course lower than in Florida…You have 4 giga internet Wifi / UNE everywhere in the Bay…a five minute boat ride brings you to the touristic heart of Cartagenas Walled City, or to a cristal clear water tropical sand beach, with no tourists – your choice…May 17, 2014 at 9:26 am #23537
Investment boom Cartagena Marine Business Cluster.
Now direct flights New York Cartagena.
Colombia is the C in CIVETS nations, fast growing, emerging economies, with potential to explosive growth, in the next years, called, Latin Americas Emerging Tiger Nation, Colombia is a “must look at” spot on the global investors “next to do list” …
We will implement floating platforms for a wide range of industrial and tourism applications.
-The afloat ship repair business is taking off.
-Floating housing in a hurricane free bay is already implemented with the Navegante Cholon – more to come.
-Floating marinas are in progress.
-A floating military base is in discussion.
-Floating real estate squaremeters are in high demand due to the city development needs.
So Cartagena is a center of marine business development in any case, investors from China, Dubai, Brazil, and Europe are putting their eye on the City. Donald Trump is building the biggest oceanfront Skyscrapper (Ocean Towers – half finished already)…
This is the decade of oceanic business development and emerging marine key players the VENICE business model is back in a global world of marine trade routes and opportunities.May 17, 2014 at 8:22 am #23536
Cartagena Main Port and economic center of the Spanish overseas Empire.
Baysteading and Flag of convenience is not about “yellowpress image” – it is about real business advantages and interference freedom. A ship (equally as a baystead) is considered a “piece of territory” of the flag nation. With almost all ruling code (except environment) depending on the flag nation of free choosing – You can be twenty meters from shore, and apply to a completly different rule set as the land city you are plugged into. That opens VENICE style business opportunities on large scale. Colombia is Latin Americas oldest and most stable democracy, it is the C in CIVETS nations, fast growing, emerging economies, with potential to explosive growth, in the next years, called, Latin Americas Emerging Tiger Nation, Colombia is third in population and among the top 5 in economic power on the Continent. Colombia is a “must look at” spot on the global investors “next to do list” …
Latin American nations are built on the tradition of Simon Bolivar, who was a strong believer in nations where special groups are represented in a federal Government. This makes having special statuses (legal, political) INSIDE the state a very feasible and normal situation. Free trade zones, indian nations with different laws, Colombia is by nature a patchwork of special statuses that makes what seasteading is pretending just another patch in a natural patchwork.
A baystead twenty meters from shore would fly its own flag – so be a foreign territory by defintion, hold a free trade zone status, and hold a special culture territory status and run a bitcoin internet based offshore banking center. Which makes it Venice on steroids in the heart of the economic power center of the emerging latin powerhouse, reviving the economic center port of the greatest ocean oriented economics block in history – THAT is what Cartagena is about. http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t56026816/the-spanish-oceanic-empire/
This is of essence because all actual settlements and economic business centers and development opportunities resemble this historic pattern.
Interference freedom and floating status:
Venice style business on a baystead:
Why oceanic business is the next big thing to come:
To round up the picture Cartagena is in the small hurricane free band of the Caribbean – which allows houseboat style floating structures as viable option. And has protected deepwater bay bigger than the area the City is built on – open to floating development.
It is definitly the best natural harbor feature on the Continent reason why the Spanish overseas empire was developed from here in first place. What is a global marine container shipment economy today was founded and first implemented by the sail ships of the spanish overseas empire.
Hurricane Routes in the Caribbean
Considering all those factors there is nothing remotly comparable to Cartagena in the Caribbean, and the Pacific coast of the Continent is “jungle and desert” where no Venice business model can prosper ever…
It is not coincidence that 3 submarine fiber cable communication backbones (Arcos, CFX, Maya) converge in Cartagena.
A baystead can plugg directly into that…
Port of Cartagena, most efficient port in the Caribbean award – 6 times in a row last six years…May 12, 2014 at 3:08 pm #23509
In the same way as in a land city buildings are “clustered together” a baystead would feature buildings of different sizes, makes, and functions, clustered together. In a baystead tendon anchors can provide a grinding free come together – in the high seas things become a bit more complicated. Draupner waves require big breakwaters or overwash safe concrete shell building.
Why oceanic business is the next big thing to come:May 10, 2014 at 5:46 am #23507
Of course 3 digit investments in floating industrial infrastructure are handled by business and investment groups that can put that kind of money on the table – what else did you expect? But that does not mean that there is no place for small ventures catering to needs of the people who run the port. Why not put a bait and tackle supply barge for weekend fishing tours of the dock worker families. Small business in a biotop niche created by big business…
This is the core of the “cluster baystead” idea, many different floating assets grouped together conveniently around a VENICE business core model, economic niches of any size and make for everybody.May 9, 2014 at 7:33 pm #23505
Affortunatly the decisions what does and what doesn’t work in port and city development are taken by business groups that do not caugh over investments of 30 Millions …May 9, 2014 at 6:46 pm #23503
From what you say i assume that you try to make a point for “concrete structures do not stand in marine environment” This discussion is not really on in “well informed marine concrete engineering” since the following structures have performed perfect marine service records for decades. In short – if there is a failure – the culprit is not the concrete – the build was flawed from the biginning – the problem is the builder and his not performance of basic concrete engineering guidelines… the following link leads to 50 city sized concrete structures in the north sea – perfect service record. http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t46256297/concrete-structures-in-the-north-sea/ this is how things need to be done. Concrete dome shells are the most durable thing that mankind has built EVER – the PANTEON in Rome is a 2000 year old concrete shell structure and it is still in top shape today.
To compare: Marine steel is structurally dead after 1-3 years if maintenance shedule stops. You really need to put things into the right context…
High grade marine steel structure (minisubmarine) with stopped maintenance shedule 70 years later…
Kat, big things cost big money, if you break the building cost down to cost per squarefoot living space created you will see that building a big concrete sphere is exceptionally economic in real estate terms.
Check this: http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t56101129/concrete-sphere-wind-energy-storage-sistem/May 9, 2014 at 4:58 pm #23501
To picture the Oceanic Concrete Sphere Habitat – this is the optical appearance of a ocean sphere sticking slightly out of the water. Definitly Draupner Wave impact and hurricane safe.
Interior of the sphere structure is something like that…May 8, 2014 at 12:05 pm #23494
fonseca bay was also discussed here:
http://www.seasteading.org/forum-list/topic/establishing-a-ramform-floating-island/#post-22586May 8, 2014 at 10:53 am #23492
Ya $978/sq.ft real estate for a “jungle location far from everything” – that is where any investors is stopping reading a business plan…at least in the universe i live in – therefore i predict – fonseca will not happen…i think this is all discussion we need to have about that… Let’s have a discussion about themes that are worth discussing like putting a baystead housing cluster into the bay of a thriving coastal city on a key location of seatrade, in a emerging tiger nation, with attractive caribbean climate, dayly flight form US, Europe, Asia, high interference freedom scale score. Prime connection to everything – $ 80 sq.ft – investors keep reading…get your personal space ready and set up for key hand over within a year.
Housing style reference fiber concrete shell and honeycomb technology.
Bay reference: Hurricane free zone, the calm water area available for floating development is twice the size of the existing land city. Best port of the caribbean award for 6 years. The space behind Tierra Bomba is deepwater up to 30m so accessable to big ships but also calm like a fishpond, this is why Cartagena was first port of the Spanish overseas empire. The remoteness of the floating location is chooseable according to the preference of the floating home owners. Everything between “Coral island ambient” and “Thriving World City ambient” goes. Crossing the bay in speedboats is a 30 min ride. You go from remote caribbean to City center.