Forum Replies Created
August 24, 2014 at 6:50 am #23839
Guys we are quite off topic in this thread the thread theme is “From Trash to Home” so instead to comment i will just put a couple of references. The discussion is not new we had it historicly as “enlightenment and industrial revolution”
The outcome – french revolution, american constitution democratic government as it is.
Today there is a new player on this philosophical field who allows to do things that where impossible 1700-1900: the Blockchain Technology: http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t57838040/blockchain-technology/
More about the topic in this thread:
http://www.seasteading.org/forum-list/topic/lessons-from-history-frontiers-and-enlightenment/August 23, 2014 at 3:57 pm #23834
The Quest for Interference Freedom.
Too much interference in too many fields of our life – why should one NOT have the freedom to sail over the Atlantic in a small boat and run the risk. Taking risks is part of the human nature. Next to come up in a nanny state safety frame a police force to “avoid that people get killed” by climbing the Everest, forbid of base jumping, forbid of motorcycling, outdoor sports of any kind… new frontiers where risk takers can make a living are needed … ocean colonization is next.
What happened to nr 12. of the United Nations “universal rights”
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference … Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference …August 21, 2014 at 8:17 am #23818
Spark, for concrete shells in the ocean this is the “frame of possibilties” of current available concrete technology.
Beside surface floating construction submerged construction down to 1000m is feasible – this brings vent base alpha and mid ocean ridge mining operations in the range of “doable”. So not only floating ocean cages (food production), also big energy and big mining is in the “go oceanic race”
1000m depth rating possible for spheres, 500m for tubular concrete structures
…the (study) results demonstrated the feasibility of near neutrally buoyant concrete structures, having an overall safety factor of three, at depths to 3000 feet for spheres and 1500 feet for cylinders. Greater depths are possible if concretes having a compressive strenght greater than 10.000 psi are used or if negativly buoyant structures are designed.
H.H Haynes and R.D. Rail october 1986 first published sept.1976
Also a business like the solent forts is in the range of the possibilities…
The key to have a good idea what is next is to get a clear picture about what is out there already today (often unknown to the public) – what is comming up is going the next step from what is there and floating now.
Get a foothold in ocean colonization:
The Captain Nemo Lifestyle:
Why oceanic business is the next big thing to come:
Ocean sphere fish farming:
Ocean colonization gallery:
Vent Base Alpha mid ocean ridge…
But oceanic business ventures do not need to be big and industrial you can always start with a small living space bubble like this:
Combined with a single drift cage to make a living on the ocean…
Read more about the oceanic living space bubble concept:
http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t46713498/submerged-living-space-bubble-concept-basics/August 20, 2014 at 5:40 am #23812
What concerns building methods picture it more like that (Rion-Antirion):
spark, on the ocean colonization key player network we believe that sooner or later a lot of human activities will take place in concrete shells placed in the ocean. As the ocean contains 99% of the untaped space reserve of our blue planet – before we take off to space colonizaton we need to accomodate the real estate and nutrition needs of a population growing a billion per decade during several decades to come. I have a selection of info about the ocean sphere placed here: http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t56239662/oceanic-concrete-sphere-habitat/
In this context also check the ORES concept:
And the following topics…
Get a foothold in ocean colonization:
The Captain Nemo Lifestyle:
Why oceanic business is the next big thing to come:
Ocean sphere fish farming:
Ocean colonization gallery:
The main problem of oceanic drift cages is the accomodtion of the aquaculture crew in open ocean conditions. Ships do not cut it. Once the engine stops life on board becomes hell and unbearable to wait for fish to grow. So aquaculture in drift cages will go perfect in submerged living space units type BEN Franklin (http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t51087589/ben-franklin-drift-dive/) – or Captain Nemo Float Out. http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t43942461/the-captain-nemo-float-out-seasteading/
More in the context of open ocean aquaculture:
http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t55503159/taming-the-blue-frontier/August 19, 2014 at 5:57 am #23808
The bay has up to 30m waterdepth so one of the options for the industrial part of the Cartagena Marine Cluster is bringing in one of those floating drydocks.
Chineese investors offered a deal for a drydock of panamax size with chineese finanance package.
We actually work already a lot with deckbarges – we bring welder teams to ships anchored in the bay and do repair jobs with those barges. (floating ship repair shop is another important part of the marine business cluster).
For building a seastead steel deckbarges are by far to expensive in real estate squaremeters (missing pricepoint a factor 1000) and have a by far to short service lifespan (missing factor 200). If you do not sandblast and bottom paint every year the barge is structurally gone by corrosion in a few months. – you can not have this maintenance regime for a seastead, not even for a floating home so forget naval steel technology for seasteading if it where feasible it would be implemented by now. The missing of realistic real estate pricepoints is the reason why floating real estate based on naval steel is not comming.
The Navegante Cholon is a solution in that direction we have on the water here in Cartagena but it is for high price tourism not for family housing – this is why steel is a feasible option in this case. (more budget for maintenance is available).
What we need for seasteading is a rott and maintenance free base to build on that lasts at least 3 human generations and offers real estate squarmeters comparable to land housing. Only concrete honeycomb and shell structures offer this for a marine ambient.
When you think about building a permanent settlement on the ocean you should picture it like this:
Wharf structure heavy concrete honeycomb:
Khalifa oceanic Port
Rion Antirion Pylon
Floating light concrete shells
Modular honeycomb, cube raft, pilot project Cartagena.
Light fiber concrete shell another pilot project in Cartagena.
Plastic bottle and floating trash raft with fiberconcrete binding test piece for a low cost floating platform to ease flooding issues in the Magdalena region Cartagena.
Incrementing cell size of a floating honeycomb structure to “pod size” 5cm wall thickness.
Concrete building allows anything from light building to heavy industrial structures.August 18, 2014 at 5:35 pm #23806
Peter, yes i have run about a dozend pilot projects for floats in the bay of cartagena ranging from thick walled shells to extreme light honeycomb structures. We have a squaremeter real estate building cost of 60-780 USD per squaremeter depending on the building method and the interference cost of the building site so we do meet local real estate squaremeter prices including a mayor profit for the investor and developer.
Method 1 extreme light concrete honeycomb 5mm wallthickness.
This is the base method for the ramform project (http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t51926036/establishing-a-ramform-floating-base-in-the-high-seas-concre/)
Method 2 heavy concrete honeycomb
Concrete submarine type Captain Nemo float out (http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t43942461/the-captain-nemo-float-out-seasteading/)
All in all we have several building methods in floating concrete shell and honeycomb building.
We are building up a project that is called the Cartagena Marine Business Cluster. It will be grouped around port infrastructure, marinas, floating housing and floating real estate in general.
The city of Cartagena – like most waterfront cities is running out of real estate development space.
The next step of city development is “out into the bay” or what is refered here as Baystead. I prefer to speak of the Venice busiess model (http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t56710025/venice-italy-how-to-do-instructions-for-seasteading-from-his/).
In Cartagena the industry and chamber of commerce is strongly behind that idea. I also talked to Randy to bring his floating City concept in the development was a bit slow – but local and international real estate devolpers seem to like the idea and are comming in with serious investment proposals.
The city of Cartagena has a bay that is twice the size of the metropolitan area the City is built on land, so we have lots of development space for a baystead cluster and best of all the bay is free of hurricanes. So we can build and offer solutions like this.
Low wave ambient single family floating homes grouped into a floating village inside the perfectly protected bay.
We also have this perfect caribbean ambient that really draws people…
August 17, 2014 at 6:06 pm #23802
still can try this as first element of a future cluster… Remember the settlement cluster of Los Angeles started little impressive this way…
The relevant thing is not the finance capacity you have in the very beginning it is the transition capacity (http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t58002383/big-things-have-small-beginnings-transition-capability-key-f/) of the project and its capability to plug into serious business down the way. See Venice as model. http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t56710025/venice-italy-how-to-do-instructions-for-seasteading-from-his/August 17, 2014 at 11:44 am #23799
Rohanjanssen, i would invite you to rethink the whole idea of “lego like tiling concepts” no city on land is built in fit for all and snapfit sistems for good reasons. Cities are clusters of buildings of different make shape and funktions ranging from a garage to a stadion floating cities will be no different – clusters of floating real estate of many kinds grouped together in proximity – not engineered prefab condo solutions type “module” of any kind. Think more of a port development or a marina development than a condo of hexagonal platforms and containers.
Starting with something like a ramform to make the transition out of the protected bay, mobility, and a reasonable wavehandling part of the menu of options…
http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t51926036/establishing-a-ramform-floating-base-in-the-high-seas-concre/August 17, 2014 at 10:55 am #23798
Ocean, here in Cartagena we have explored other options for a Seastead. For a floating development cluster with transshipment port functions the status of a “free trade zone” is also an option. For a floating cluster that has a focus on community building a status like a “indian reservation” is possible, including different currency ofshore banking etc, community ownership of the floating cluster, different police force, etc… a seastead ideally would apply for ship status (piece of territory of a flag of convenience nation), for a free trade zone status, and a ethnic territory staus, accumulating grades of freedom that are unthinkable for a state.August 11, 2014 at 11:59 am #23771
you might start with something like this – a cluster of floating structures – type marina – develop it to something like this.
a floating district of a existing land city. And finally develop it further to this.
A oceanic floating city. At any moment of the development you need to be in business with the boating sector, the tourism sector, the ship seatransport sector, etc…to earn money to finance the next development step of your floating city. The economic heart of the development needs to start beating with the first floating walkway (rent marina boxes to boaters, sell beer and tackle) and keep beating stronger every time you take a development step.
You need the right mix of “interference freedom” and “emerging economy” to make it happen – i would see San Francisco as a “highly redtape cluttered place” in a “sclerotic coding nation” rather than a ideal place to do such a thing. http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t56351996/business-and-third-party-interference-freedom/
But the only really good way to get a clear picture about that is to put a couple of floating squaremeters out there and see what happens in a pilot project setup. For the Cartagena Marine Cluster ( http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t46019347/small-honeycomb-floating-concrete-structures-in-cartagena/ )
i have already done half a dozend pilot projects – and aquired a quite good understanding how to tackle the matter on my location. I also got a widespread investor interest. So i asume you have to do the same at your location…August 11, 2014 at 4:52 am #23769
Why remote location seasteading does not work…
Guys, a island in the middle of nowhere without a economy to plug in, without attractions to pull business is just pointless no matter if it is artificial or natural you never will get investment to build anything for a “mid pacific location” most you can get is a “polinesian lifstyle” based on local fishing and yuca gardenery that is it. The polinesians do “island steading in the mid pacific” for thousands of years – what is the point to repeat this experiment. It is basicly the same like the Tanka the Sea Gypsies, the floating Neutrinos, Richi Sowa, etc. etc.. what matters is the TRANSITION CAPACITY of a floating project. http://www.seasteading.org/forum-list/topic/big-things-have-small-beginnings-transition-capabilty-key-feature/
What you need to get is a ongoing development dynamics like in the historical model of VENICE. http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t56710025/venice-italy-how-to-do-instructions-for-seasteading-from-his/
What diferenciates this model from “Tanka floating stagnation models” http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t58002383/big-things-have-small-beginnings-transition-capability-key-f/?page=1#comment-58002451 is its LOCATION in a interference free space on important seatrade routes brokering power interests around it successfully plugging into trade and controling it.
Mid ocean locations are not feasible for a startup. Baystead comes first. You need to create economic dynamics to grow a floating city. Remote locations are only feasible when you already have a business dynamics so big that the city becomes a business center of its own. (Size of Las Vegas)
Picture a feasible seasteading setup with business dynamics something like in the image above, a baystead near a emerging shoreside city running out of development space, projecting to the watersurface in the sense of a “marine cluster development”.August 9, 2014 at 7:38 pm #23759
The plastic patch in the gyre is a media hype it is not really there. So you can not build with it. The real concentration is about 1 confetti sized plastic piece per olympic swimming pool of water. So nothing you could harvest, concentrate, manipulate on large scale making any economic sense in no feasible setup…August 7, 2014 at 7:26 am #23753
Spark, your comment contains a paradigma that you should rethink. You asume as a fact that interference freedom is a function of distance from shore – in fact interference freedom is driven by “practical factors” being the most important who has an interest, a practial means (boat) and a interest (political) to interfere in a specific activity in a specific spot. You can have a interference factor 1 in one spot (any activity on the water will be interfered always) and a interference factor 9 (almost no activity on the water will be interfered) a couple of miles up the shore in the same country all depends on local shoreside factors not on “geo political factors”.
As you say correctly it becomes more and more difficult to do anything (beyond applied condo living rule behavior) anywhere. Spaces of freedom are the fuel of development and progress. The quest for interference free space will be one of the route causes why going oceanic is the next big thing to come:
When the idea is going oceanic in the sense of ocean coloization the first practical step instead of going outside EEZ can very easyly be a modern repetition of the successful historic example of the VENICE baystead model ( http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t56710025/venice-italy-how-to-do-instructions-for-seasteading-from-his/ ) that is not based of “going out of sight and jurisdiction” but using a shoreside near position to broker political interests and seatrade for one and a half millenia. A Venice like business venture when built on floating foundations (concrete honeycomb shell) can finally take more remote positions and develop into a business center of its own a true oceanic city. My suggestion to Randy Hencken was a three step plan of statuses. Ship – free trade zone – independent city country. It looks to me that the Seasteading Institute is not willing/able at this point to go from a “talk about phase” to a “real floating development phase” but there are investors that are…August 3, 2014 at 6:02 am #23735
Ken, looks like you are a customer for a cruiseship permanent resident plan.
Instead of a baystead village development plan as i was offering to you. “Seasteading is just a artificial word shell” what “qualifies for seasteading” is what you want to qualify. Fact is, the next step in the evolution of ocean colonization will just be one step away from what is here already today. So “essentially be something that we know” but is taken a (small) step further. The idea that a “full scale independent city outside of EEZ will pop out of nowhere financed by venture capitalists” is probably a concept error.August 1, 2014 at 6:59 am #23731
Ken is living in a floating house in a caribbean bay (Cartagena) with 4G Internet having a boat instead a car a realistic option for you?
The House something like that:
Or someting like that (models can be chosen):
The internet connection exellent:
3 mayor caribben internet backbones converge in the bay – the development pluggs directly into it.
The surroundings 7 minutes in boat to the city center of Cartagena:
The fotos here i took them myself, note the skyline of Cartagena on the Horizon – it is a location inside the bay of Cartagena which is hurricane free and protected.
Your floating house will be part of a “baystead cluster development” of about 600 units moved forward by a London based real estate developer.
Watertaxis Development- Cartagena in 15 minute interval, turn key housing units, all political, permit, internet, water, graywater, cable, dish, grocery supply, questions solved by the development company.
Will you sign in for a unit ?
Come down to Cartagena i show you around…