Forum Replies Created
March 9, 2014 at 5:21 am #23065
from the above discussion i get that creating a “floating porta potty rental service” could be serious business in the area you are talking about…offer this service to Fury installations and yachties all over the place could solve a urgent widespread need and make you millionaire. I am frequently involved in ship repair projects we always have the problem that we have 200 workers on a ship that anchors two miles from shore in twelve hour shifts – the solution is to put half a dozend porta potties on board with the ship crane – and return them to the porta-potty-service barge when they are “full” in exchange to “ready for use” units. The man who runs that service is rich. You can put such a unit on a float of 5 squaremeter and tow it to locations where people are, but toilets are in short supply. As we all know from experience there are moments we would literally give a fortune to have one at hand…March 8, 2014 at 8:26 pm #23063
well kat, then you should try it with that – a concrete canoe –
The feasible business model is “rent out the second seat” for 5 USD per hour and do sightseeing tours for a single guest…
and you still can try it with that “island size” as “starting piece” …
But the base problem remains – to do any kind of project, you need a budget of some kind for it…
My lowest budget project was this island – built on base of styrofoam and plastic bottles and fiber material recovered from a waste dump – but you still need to buy some cement to hold everything together…
see video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlYla1leaMg
It was geared to build a low cost floating platform to solve low cost housing for poor people living in the floodplains of the Magdalena River in Colombia – a government investigation project …March 8, 2014 at 2:38 pm #23061
This applies pretty much to the principles of small scale, enclosure, tough in hurricane, ongoing construction, nice blend in, live there while you build…start in land connection, later float out to less interference locations, have a bow, don’t have neighbors molested, keep a clean appeance…
When grown to a bigger size it is still a nice apperance on the horizon…
Should not be so difficult to attact tourism on your 6 pack licence for a day in jaccuzzi cave or rock climbing wall – a offer that Fury does not cover …
throw in a couple of underwater windows and a shark feeding arena – and you have a “wonderweapon” that leaves Fury Quicksilver and company with their cattle tourism offer clearly behind…
The whole island becomes a very attractive feature by itslf – “greatest daystay in the region” as you said – but you can not do that on “houseboat raft up base” you need to invent, design, and build that from cero…its not about the toilet, its not about island shape, nor float designs, its about the business model…design follows business model…
Same thing on large scale (port development) as on small scale, “6 pack tourism offers”.
Basicly you can design and float out everything from a concrete canoe to a floating megaport – the question is not can you design it nor can you float it. The interesting question is “do i have a attractive and feasible business model”.March 8, 2014 at 6:56 am #23060
Have been there have done that – one of the first shells we built half submerged on the mooring site…
This small shell of 20 cubic meter provides a “diogenes style” living space for a person. It does not matter much if you place it on the surface, under the surface, keep it stationary, keep it mobile, all this is in the “range of possibilities”. Due to the extreme small ambient and optical footprint i never experienced interference of any kind.
It also turned out that enclosing a cubic meter of living space in a shell is easier to perform and more economic than putting it on platforms and deal with the interference…
Have been there and done that too…
Small floating concrete test platform in albornoz cartagena colombia
Small floating concrete test platform la boquilla cartagena colombiaMarch 8, 2014 at 5:41 am #23059
One of the reasons why Seasteading is taking off now, is that the technoloy level we have reached allows all kind of “closed loop systems” it is now technical feasible to recycle wastewater to drinking water again and to treat human poop to nutrients on a relative small space.
Things go even further, it is possible to put a human and his breathing needs in balance with a algea tank so that a basic closed loop biotop can be established.
If you check what is the size of the space you need to do so the leading experiments point to surprisingly small spaces. One of the first serious experiments was the BEN Franklin which managed to hold a crew of 4 in a living space bubble of only 130 cubic meter on a surface independent drift dive during a month.
Another outstanding experiment series was recently done by Lloyd Godson which involved living submerged in a space of room size for several days with the assistance of a algea rebreather of locker size for several days.
Further interesting reading is the Captain Bubble experiment:
Also experiments like the Biosphere experiments and the Eden Domes in England. It is only in the last few years that even sunlight can be simulated now with a new generation of diodes so hydrophonic farming underground and in ocean spheres in the deep sea or in outer space becomes techonologically feasible the first time in history.
We are comming to the point where all human needs and all biological and industrial processes asociated to human needs – can be attended “closed loop” in relative small spaces with cero ambient impact. It is exactly this tecnology level that enables cities that do not depend on a river as water source and waste dump start to become a reality and feeding the population without covering the landscape with monoculture that causes mass extinction is technologically at hand.
So we can build anything in a “ambient independent bubble” and we can place that bubble into a space where it does not molest any neighbor – the ocean which holds 99% of the space volume available on the planet. On the long term cities will be administrated like condos – the condo administration will tell you exactly what you can or can not do in this space. Business will be pushed out of cities in the same way as “economic activity” is pushed out of a condo today…
We see from the discussion above that even if you are not going for “closed loop bubble living space” in first place but start thinking in a simple houseboat – the regulation and interference ambient around you – is kind of putting closed loop sistems as mayor theme on the table – in ANY CASE – no matter what is the size of the venture, its nature, its design etc… – the pressure will only increase – so everything will end up in a clean enclosure that does harmonize with the landscape, and operating on closed loop sistems. So a good starting point for a small seastead, is to start in a shell, and keep all closed loop, beginning with the toilet. Ventures that do not operate as “closed loop bubble” will be “interfered to extintcion”.
Beside the closed loop principle, “optical blend in” is key. a example for that is this hotel that looks like a Cruiseship to blend into a marina ambient.
Examples of floating ventures applying the blend in priciple sucessfully:
Other examples this floating house in Colombia’s Amazon Region
This floating house in Baru Cholon Lagoon Cartagena Colombia
The principle also applies on land – the less optical footprint you have the less interference you will have to deal with…
The best thinkable solution is a shell that is invisible so people do not even notice that it is there.
Submerging the shell is the “ultimate solution” that comes to mind for a water based living space…March 5, 2014 at 4:09 pm #23043
Looks like he found a business niche but could not survive a “interferer” that had a boat and came out to close him down. Should have stayed in the bait and tackle business not ventured to the “tourist feeding business” what seems a “high interference risk business” in Florida … nice pilot project after all – we all know now for certain that it is risky to enter into the “small scale tourist feeding business” in Florida when afloat – “LOT of code to apply” for that.
Here in Cartagena people run small scale food business cooking in an old baril on the street – seems like you can not do that in Florida…
No code to apply for that…the business plan depends on the business location – this is true on large and small scale.
Know the interferers, know their code of function, know their execution practice…if they would have found slime in the ice machine of a cruiseship would they have “closed down the operation” or got their ass kicked overboard – that is a question on “food safety realpolitik” for a lawyer in Florida – anybody a educated guess on that?March 5, 2014 at 2:23 pm #23040
Kat what you normally do when you are not big enough to compete on the main playfield you go for a “specialized niche market” the big competitor does not cover … Conchy Bowe did that successfully.March 5, 2014 at 2:07 pm #23039
Ocean, nothing pitchy, snaky, patronizing, about business, it is not personal, it is just business. As advisor i am normally paid and welcome to point out the weaknesses that need to be improved. You sounded like a business owner that can not get a lift off – i went in to offer my help to point you to the areas you should give a thought to come to the point of lift off. The one minute attention span is what you get from any investor – be prepared for it when you want to catch the interest of one. I would see convert to non profit rather a drawback than a improvement. Give deep thoughts how you can be attractive to investors. Richi Sowa is not really a good example of a fast forward moving business plan that will lead us into a brigh future… what separates business from “fooling around” is having a clear strategy, intelligent implementations, – and – several investors lining up to be part of it. Avoid to sound like somebody who is not up to the task – who has not clear what are the “outstanding things in oceanic engineering” and what are the “fooling around ventures”, what is key to the business, and what is not, who is hands on, who is pure computer graphics, never wine around when somebody points out your weak points – just take it and improve the points. Thanks for pointing out my weak points – going to improve them. Not trying to molest you i really want to see you succeed. WilMarch 4, 2014 at 4:47 am #23032
The topic starting seasteading on small scale, inevitably lead us to the topic of what kind of small scale business you can do better on the water than on land. The inevitable answer was – snorkeling, kayaking, sailing, fishing, scuba diving, sunbathing, windsurf, kite surf, waterski, bait and tackle, – all kind of “aquatic activities” as the tourism and hospitality industy is offering on a typical tropic tourism site as in Florida, Australia, The Caribbean, and around the world.
Ocean pointed us to the “leaders in this” in his target area Florida, so we ended up looking at Fury Water Adventures. The question that a investor now would ask is: Ok we know that Fury Water Adventures is probably doing a profitable business in the area where you are planning to do a profitable business in the near future – so tell us EXACTLY how do you compete with Fury, what is your competitive edge over Fury that will make that their business is loosing customers to your business. (because that is what you need to deliver to prosper)
Why exactly should we put money into YOUR venture when Fury is also looking for investors and they already ARE business leaders in the area, they know exactly how to do it, and they are obviously good in it, looks a better investment to me to throw a couple of thousand on Furies expansion plans than on your “bunch of crude ideas”. This is how investment really works.
So you come better up with a “informed and credible talk” about your “competitive edge” and how you will “enhance the customer experience” that fury offers as we speak –
The attention span to do so is less than a minute.
The reality of what we have heared so far is, that the customer of Fury just buys a ticket, boards a wonderful catamaran, sails all around the keys eats lobster from a buffet prepared by a real chef, snorkels, kayaks what he wants, on a “all inclusive” ticket marketed and sold by any travel agency in Florida.
In their (working) business model nobody needs to buy any odd “timeshare for an old houseboat that does not exist yet” for doing water tourism in the keys. – So what is your “wonderweapon” that will beat Fury in business?
The dialog up there sounds like you have not given sufficient thought to this yet – you seem to be entangled in “bow floats” and “lateral floats” square floats and angle floats and ferrocement – but all this really does not interest an investor. The superior customer experience and the competitive edge does – and when you have a convincing plan to pull it off – you need to get a convincing talk to sell yourself as the “right man to do it” – otherwise the investor listens to your business plan – and implements it then with FURY on the steering wheel. Talking like a “aquatic hobo” while you should talk like somebody “you want to invest in” does not make your case.
I see that you have come a long way in the last couple of years. I still remember the endless green an lila angular float graphics from the discussions three years ago – what you say now sometimes really sounds like somebody who is working on a business model that at some point could really work.
If seasteading will be implemented on small scale in the mentioned business ambient, the starting point might well be Quicksilver and Fury with some twist that creates that competitive edge, that extra that can create a momentum that projects into the future.
Keep looking for it – fine and sharpen your talk about it – investor calls will come sooner or later if they think you are ready for the task.
And when those calls start rolling in – don’t take everybodies money. Especially small scale investors frequently want to see a unrealistic amount of stuff done for a very small amount of money wired to your venture. Have the guts and commit your investors to share the risk, do not let them load all the burden on your back for a ridiculous small sum – have been there have done that…March 3, 2014 at 5:07 am #23024
Amen, Ocean, this is how a man who has a clear business vision talks. This is also a good example how you “glorify and enhance” a prooven business model (hospitality industry) by putting it on the water. khalifa-port in its basic nature is just a artificial sandbank but it is “gloryfied and enhanced” by megaport features put offshore on the crossroads of world trade routes. This is how you pull investor money to a sandbank. I also like the business slogan “best place to hangout on the water” – make sure that the practical implementation is up to it. This is definitly something a local investor holding a couple of apartments and bars already living in the area, would throw a couple of thousands on to see where it gets. Once you have “120 members, 2 houseboats, 6 floats, 1 restaurant and bar open to the members, 25 full time employees” and make good money – you will have local banks comming to you offering you a lot of money to expand further. This business model works fine in Australia for Quicksilver, why shouldn’t it work in Florida. (but notice that Quicksilver is a “daystay” venture, not a timeshare model)
The critical part in this business plan is the transition from the houseboat you mention to quicksilver…you need to show that you actually can transform a boring second hand houseboat into a profit center – can you? – this is what the investors will want to know. The “business vision” that comes up when you invite kat “to crunch on your boat” sounds more as “florida low budget housing to be removed out of sight” by other profitable business neighors than “being the core of profitable business itself”. Investors tend to look at the “credibility of the business motor to pull it off” as carefully as they look on the “basic business model proposed”…
Also keep in mind that Quicksilver is rafting up a “airconditoned transport vessel”, “2 semisubersible touristic vessels”, and similar items in a “hurricane free zone”.
Hurricane free in the caribbean means between la Guajira in Colombia and Panama – the rest of the caribbean is definitly hurricane zone. You need to build floating ventures different when you build inside or outside hurricane zones. The whole idea to “go for shelter with the venture breaking it up” is a bit “non convincing” – the MMK pieces going for shelter will be trapped between poorly anchored industrial barges going for shelter in the same bay when hurricane “theo” comes in – so it will either be hurricane proof and can go for weathering the hurricane by itself in open sea – or it ends up in the big grinder between industrial barges and yachts comming loose with all the other debris… this tought should be inclueded in the “implementation of the business model” – so make sure to have a “ship bow that can deal with that kind of conditions” and have the people sheltered on board in shell structures – not running for shelter somewhere else…March 2, 2014 at 2:33 pm #23020
Kat, the material i am talking about is a composite material on cement base. The strength of the material depends much more on the “smart use of the fiber component” than on the material thickness (just like in a glassfiber boat) – before doing any “necessary thickness predictions” you should build stuff, get a clear idea how each component influences the structural toughness of the piece. I would not recommend “fiber ready mix” for that. Get the components, test and combine them, until you get the best and most suitable combination. Consider it an ARTFORM you need to get crafty in it. If you do it right you can build light and tough shells with incredible thin walls and little material use… you can build a shell you can sleep in with 1 bag of portland cement…and some recovered fiber that costs you close to nothing. So the cost of materials should not really be an issue when going the first steps – project management and interference handling is the hard part. Also have a working business plan that really generates x dollar per day in real world – not one that is only feasible with the help of an “imaginary angel investor”. It is right that you can get a lot of investor money for projects that are “good business already” but pushing the venture to the point that it “starts to be a good business the first time” is in general a very lonley task. Anybody buys in into good business – nobody buys in on bunch of crude ideas.March 2, 2014 at 7:05 am #23016
Actually i would picture a possible floating shell construction version for the business model of MMK (small tourism venture) as something like this…this was planned for nothern latitude, so for Florida it would obviously be “palmier” and “jaccuzzier”…
tropical cave ambients in fiberconrete with “touristic pull” as we build them in the galeriaC project come to mind…
Touristic developments on fiberconcrete dome and honeycomb base can be built incredible exotic, in, and attractive, and at the same time be really tough in case of hurricanes almost in bunker quality. So this would go far beyond houseboats and pontoons, and be a “attraction and money maker comparable to a disney ride by itself” without depending on shared rent models…think more in jaccuzzi paradise day stay models or in cave disco dancing night…than in timeshare rent…March 2, 2014 at 6:20 am #23015
While you start it with a “dog house style shell for hosting a single man” over time the stern section of the ramform would grow in “multiple bubble” style to something that looks like this millionair palace…if you can keep the momentum and get more and more supporters and investors interested in the project. Every time you have funds available you add a shell room to the ramform. It is basicly like a organic organism it starts with a single cell and then adds cells to build up something that is really big compared to the small beginnings it came from – but the plan is there starting with the first cell…over time you add marina and port functions to the stern part, this is the point where you get the attention of normal real estate and business investors people who would never invest in a goofy houseboat raft up – and once you have their attention a size like the port development below definitly comes in reach…
March 2, 2014 at 5:40 am #23014
Kat to solve this “very first day on the waterfront without paying a hotel” you might consider to build a very small shell (along the lines of the rescue pod and small boat shell above) of a few cubic meter, that allow you to sleep in the shell, and get a foothold on the waterfront – this piece would end up as the “bulb nose of the ramform” in a later building phase…
The building technology is fiber concrete like the plate Don Arturo is standing on, in one of my building sites in Cartagena. This is very economic to build (few dollar range) and really tough and strong when formed to a shell…
you can keep it just 6mm thick (if you build it right) which means very little material use of a very economic material.
In a fully grown ramform this very first piece serving as a your “first couple of cubic meter living space” would be the “bulb nose of the bow of the ramform”.
Read more about the ramform: http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t51926036/establishing-a-ramform-floating-base-in-the-high-seas-concre/
See more concrete shells: http://www.pinterest.com/wellmer/concrete-shell-building-thin-shell-domes-honeycomb/March 2, 2014 at 4:58 am #23013
Keep in mind that investors look for somthing that has “projection into a profitable future” floating real estate in Florida clearly has this quality – but you need to give them “safety of mind” that the “real estate” is still there after the next hurricane season…a suitable development of living space and real estate on the water that follows the “small venture on a man made key” approach of your MMK project could be something like the pictures above.
Read more about the ramform: http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t51926036/establishing-a-ramform-floating-base-in-the-high-seas-concre/
See more concrete shells: http://www.pinterest.com/wellmer/concrete-shell-building-thin-shell-domes-honeycomb/