Forum Replies Created
May 4, 2012 at 5:03 am #20378
I’d even go so far as to say I think 95% of the floating structures should be for marine habitat, and 5% for our homes.
The 95% can be low level boyancy, and cheap, as it only needs to hold plants, and not structures, or humans, so the 95% could likely cost about equal that of the 5% which holds our actual stead.
Not just altruistic, and for the environment, but becaus we benefit from increased fish stocks, and ability to harvest marine plants (for construction materials, food, animal food, compost, etc.), and break waters, etc.
And of course…it’ll look nice to have a seastead surrounded by plants and animals.May 4, 2012 at 4:56 am #20377
I agree. I do however think it could become far more than just an aesthetic thing. I think it could be amazingly useful to create structures which are catalysts for marine habitats.
Think about the increase in fish due to increased habitat for small critters which are their food, increased places for fish to breed (I saw a doco where fish were filmed spawning on a floating palm frond, out on the ocean, so they’re not fussy), and the corresponding increase in human food (ie. fish, crabs, etc.).
Rather than farming fish inside a net I want to just create a fish paradise, with no nets, where fish breed, and feed, and become so highly populated in surrounding areas I can catch fish easily every day using a simple rod or trap.
I think this value in increasing fish habitats, considering how humans depend on fish as food, and how we’re decimating fish stocks due to over fishing, could be an amazingly useful approach to providing us food.
Also it’s a way of getting governments off our backs. If we can show we’re doing an environmentally beneficial project which benefits everyone, then how can they interfere?
If we just build homes, maybe they’ll come up with reasons to interfere. But combining them with environmental projects such as floating plants and marine habitats I think is a good idea.
That’s how I figure my first prototype will get left alone….but starting it not as my home….but rather as an environmental project.May 4, 2012 at 4:43 am #20376
Correction…..instead of “may the best ideas win…”
I’ll change it to:
“May the best tangible prototypes, experiments, and demonstrations, and the corresponding real world uses…….win”
Ideas are great. Prototypes and demonstrations are key though.May 4, 2012 at 4:39 am #20375
Interesting…I’ve had a few chats online with someone involved in the zeitgeist movement.
I’m not technically a supporter of the movement, but I support any ideas and creativity, so long as none is imposed upon anyone, and as long as no-one claimed to be superior to anyone else.
I’m happy to let some market forces based competition go on between seasteading institute and the zeitgeist movement. The best ideas will win, and that’s how it should be. If they’re lagging….well the markets will allow people to leave them behind.
Market forces must still be subject to and regulated by international and common law (to avoid abuses of power and resources, as in you can’t claim governance over the entire ocean and prevent others from using the ocean), but other than that I think they should be pretty much open and free.
No teeth kicking required. If they come up with some good ideas we’ll learn from it. If they want to learn from my ideas I’m fine with that.
I’m an open source software fanatic (the one case I’m happy to be seen as a fanatic) and my whole philosophy revolves around open source, and open learning, and open sharing, with minimal hindrance and regulation.
The more options and ideas the better.
The more experimentation the better.
Competition is great so long as it doesn’t reduce options, ideas, and experimentation, due to one group trying to interfere with another.
So long as nothing is imposed upon anyone and everyone is free to follow their own path (with the condition they don’t hinder others doing the same).
Then people will decide which to go with and those who can’t keep up will be left behind.
Having said all this….it seems the zeitgeist movement, and venus project, from the little I know of it, are focused on fancy expensive designs for the future, moreso than feasible plans for today.
To some extent the seasteading institute have some of the same futuristic plans, but at least I see many people here experimenting with prototypes, and trying to make something now, today, that is affordable.
May the best ideas win…..May 2, 2012 at 8:16 pm #20363
And just to clarify. My point about the connection between copy right and patent is, as far as I know, that if you hold copyright that is sufficient to prevent others from patenting your idea.
You likely need to make sure your copyright is known publicly though for that to happen.
It doesn’t mean you can necessarily stop others from using your idea (though maybe you stop them from profiting from it), just to stop them from patenting it which might prevent you from using it yourself.
So obviously they’re different things, but copyright I believe is sufficient to ensure you can keep using your idea, and no-one can stop you from using it by patenting it.May 2, 2012 at 8:11 pm #20362
Also there’s a chance things have changed since I spoke to that guy, and since I worked for the marketing guy.
And since I did the business course where they mentioned that, in the copyright subject, that the moment you publish something you hold copyright. Or the moment you have proof of the date you came up with it. And that registering it is simply a formalized way of proving this.
As I said…things may have changed.May 2, 2012 at 8:07 pm #20361
I’m well aware copyright and patent are separate things.
My point is that, as far as I know, if you you’ve published something, then it’s virtually impossible for someone to patent that idea, including you.
I chatted to a guy about patents (I think he was from the aussie or nsw “patent office” though I can’t recall the actual name of the place) and he asked me:
“Have you told anyone about this idea?”
I said no and he said….
“Good, because in order to get a patent you must not have ever published the idea or told people about it. Once you publish the idea you pretty much can’t get a patent. It has to be an undisclosed concept”
This may only be in australia, but I’m guessing it’s similar in other areas (though probably not exactly the same laws).
My point is that once you publish an idea it’s not possible, or very difficult to patent it. At least that’s what this guy said.
As for copy right law. The key as far as I know to holding copyright is purely whether or not you can prove you came up with it first.
So having it published is, as far as i know, sufficient to hold copyright. As-is the poor man’s copyright I mentioned.
I worked for a marketing guy who used to use the poor man’s copyright I mentioned to get a record of his creation, so he could prove he held copyright.
Registering for formal copyright is a good idea, as it’s even more evidence you came up with it when you did, but as far as I comprehend it’s simply the proof of the date you came up with it that is essential.
But…..I’m no expert on these things either. So best to research it before believing what I’m saying.May 1, 2012 at 2:09 pm #20298
From my limited comprehension of copyright and patent law….
The moment you publish something it is immediately copywritten. So putting photos online, and explanations of how you did it, means it’s immediately under copyright. The only issue with copy write is the ability to prove you actually came up with the idea. So publishing about it online can be such proof.
You can also do “poor man’s copyright” by taking photos and explaining what you’ve done, then go to post office and post it to yourself, then leave it sealed with the post stamp on it (not just the postage stamp, but also the one the post office stamps over the top of it) and that has the date on it.
Keep it in a safe place and you have proof of the date you created the idea so it’s your copyright, but you can keep it private.
When it comes to patent law you cannot patent something which has already:
- been published and exposed to the public
- had copyright from someone else
So to stop others patenting it I believe you simplest way is to publish it online, for the world to see, and make sure you have a good record of that publishing to prove you were the first to come up with it.
However I’d recommend doing some research on it to make sure I’m correct. I’m no expert.April 30, 2012 at 3:21 pm #20289
Btw Elwar I’m pretty sure I won’t be patenting any of my designs.
I’ll release them in the spirit of open source with the intention that no-one can ever patent any of it.
I want people to be able to replicate my designs/approach and they don’t need to pay me a cent.
Hopefully I can learn from experiences of others replicating my approach, and that’ll be their “payment” to me.
However I do see why, if you put a lot of money, time, and effort into a design why you might want to patent it, to ensure you get a return on investment. It’s up to each individual do choose their preferred approach.
But the rest of what you said is pretty much how I’m going about it.April 29, 2012 at 9:00 pm #20267
Do you mean sunken islands as in kinda mountains under the water which boats might hit and sink?
So an island which didn’t quite manage to poke itself all the way up out of the water?
I chatted to a professional diver about my stead, and showed him what I’ve built so far, and he mentioned that in some places islands form almost out of nothing. Kinda like an underwater mountain which has sand regularly dumped on it, over and over again, from waves, and keeps rising up until it ends up out of the water. Then birds crap on it, drop seeds, and plants start growing. Then waves keep dumping more and more sand on them until it ends up a fully fledged island.
I need to research it more, to see if I can steal some ideas from nature.April 29, 2012 at 8:55 pm #20264
Link doesn’t work?April 29, 2012 at 8:49 pm #20263
I do think the experience itself, without any other advantages, could arguably be worth it.
But I think there are likely other advantages in many cases, to building on sheltered waters.
The guy who built his stead on the lake did it partly as a protest, and partly because he couldn’t find affordable accomodation near his uni.
So for him it had a practical value, as it gave him somewhere to sleep, where he was close to university.
I also think if you use low cost materials it could be cheaper to build on sheltered water than to buy land in some areas where land costs a fortune.
Obviously if you go into the middle of nowhere you can get cheap land, but then you’re far from resources, services, etc.
So if you want to be close to a city, I’d bet it could work out cheaper in some cases to build a stead on a nearby body of water, than try to buy some of the limited amount of, end very expensive, remaining land.
If you build on water you also have easy access to water (even salt water can be distilled into fresh water using the sun) which is the most essential element for sustaining life.
Also I like the idea of living on the water so I can catch and farm fish, and farm plants (even salt water ones), without having to rely on good rain fall or on pumps, etc.
So there are plenty of advantages beyond just the legal and political ones gained by being in international waters.
It all depends on what your goals are.
If you can find someone with the engineering skills, and someone else with the money, to fund a seastead for me to take into international waters immediately please let me know.
I’m keen. I’ll brave the weather (if I’m confident I’ve got a reliable stead). And I have no problem with the idea of being a little bit isolated so long as I can live on fresh fish, and trade it with fishermen for any other essentials I need.
Until then I’ll be figuring it out myself, and building it myself, with minimal spare cash.
I also like the idea of providing a demonstration to others who don’t have much cash, or much engineering expertise, to be able to copy and do it their selves. Makes it more accessible, and not limited to the wealthy people with engineering experience/training.
I’m guessing it’ll take at least a decade after deploying the first stead, and continually working on it, and growing plants to hold it all together, before it’ll be ready for me to drag it into international waters.
The weather and waves are only one major issue. I think an even bigger issue is the ability to provide all my own necessities without having to regularly come back to land.
So I need to be able to grow enough food, catch/farm enough fish, and have enough surplus to trade, before it’ll really be feasible to go 14miles or so off the coast (about the edge of national territorial waters in australia).
It’s not going to be quick….but nothing worth much is ever quick.April 29, 2012 at 8:33 pm #20259
Yeah these islands are awesome. They apparently allowed the inhabitants to avoid being invaded because they could keep moving them.
What’s even more amazing is they’re 100% made of plants from the lake, held up by the gasses in the plants. No steel, no plastic, no concrete, nothing manufactured.
The only cost it seems was time, and effort.
It makes me think the most effective way to build a seastead is not primarily out of concrete, plastic, glass, or anything else man made, but rather out of mostly just plants.
So my goal is to use (mostly) recycled materials to create a basic framework/starting point, and then cover it almost entirely with plants. It’ll be the plants doing most of the work (holding the stead together, and providing most of the boyancy) once established, and the framework will get dwarfed by the plants.
Using this approach we don’t need to spend a fortune on a seastead in theory. Just enough to build the basic starting point for the plants, and then the plants naturally do the rest (with a bit of help from us to maintain them).
I’ll be starting (I think) in an estuary, then when the plants are established after a few years I’ll try using a kite to drag the whole thing into the ocean.
The key IMO to surviving the waves and weather in the ocean is….like the uros islands, plants, and lots of them.
The plants can keep regrowing and repairing any damage. If we rely on manufactured materials we’ll need to manually repair any damage, which could end up costing too much.April 29, 2012 at 8:02 pm #20253
And no it doesn’t defeat the point to start small, and in sheltered waters.
Does a 2 or 3 storey house defeat the point of wanting to ultimately build skyscrapers?
No….2 or 3 storey houses are also useful, and not just for those living in them.
Study the history of engineering and each stage involved developing better and better engineering strategies, which culminated in ultimately building sky scrapers.
Without going through each phase the first skyscrapers built wouldn’t have been effective, and likely would have collapsed.
Same goes with the incremental approach to seasteading. They don’t defeat the point. They serve as a critical set of stepping stones and learning experiences.
Without going through those incremental stages we’d run the risk of losing lives, due to prematurely jumping in the deep end.
And if you want to dig a big hole, fill it with water, then build a bathstead or lakestead in it, that would serve a very important purpose of helping you learn how to overcome hurdles involved in the process.
Although I’d suggest finding an existing body of water, sheltered to begin with, to do your testing and learning. Saves having to dig the hole.
But if you’d like to dig a big hole…..then go for it. Up to you. (Half joking….but not entirely…because it could be a valid learning experience.)April 29, 2012 at 7:56 pm #20252
Nothing about seasteading restricts the term to being in international waters. That’s just the ultimate goal for many of us.
While being in a lake could arguably be said to not be seasteading, it’s a good start.
I still think floating just off the coast can also be seasteading, which is the next step beyond being in sheltered waters.
I’m not aware of any in international waters….yet….except large ships.
There are a lot of issues to face and work out before going all the way out into international waters.
Unless you have a lot of money and have experience in marine engineering it’s pretty difficult to go directly out into international waters without going through the process of prototyping, figuring out the bugs, proving your strategies/engineering are solid, and working your way up to the grand goal.
Architects didn’t go directly from building houses to building skyscrapers. First then went to 2 storeys, then 3, then 4, then a few more, and a few more, and eventually to skyscrapers.
Currently it seems people with goals of seasteading are currently at the beginning, trying to figure out what engineering approaches will actually work. Then we’ll need to gradually scale them up until we can be confident the steads will survive out in the rough seas.
Patience may not be fun….but it’s necessary.