Forum Replies Created
September 6, 2011 at 10:49 pm #15284
Share them here if you like, if they are too utopic or if you think it suits better to dreaming/crazy ideas section you might as well share your thought there, or perhaps ‘law and politics’ could suit a thread related to liberty too.September 4, 2011 at 2:45 am #15217
This is not really so different than what i’ve been talking about actually, the bond between capital and labor can be improved even further though and it can be applied to city size, nation size or even bigger examples efficiently with proper planning. There are many corporations out there which give their marketing employees bonus for each succeful deal, some of them doesn’t even pay them wages and give bonuses only. Though interstingly the latter isn’t really a popular choice for people looking for work, rather than sharing risks people tend to go for fixed wages, this is because there is no ideological unity between the corporation and the employee. There are different companies owned by different people and groups with different administrative methods with some of them lasting less than a decade while others might last a century or two, also people who are to be laborers have different cultures, traditions and ideologies due to difference in generation, nationality etc.. If the nation itself was found as a corporation, and all active citizens(citizens who can generate wealth for their nation/themselves with their labor) were shareholders there shouldn’t be problems regarding the efficiency of the system. I firmly believe seasteading will start in this way too, people who have compatible train of thoughts will come together and find a corporation in pursit of mutual profit and sovereignity. I think there are alrady people/corporations who have reached this purpose and there are many who are trying to, but i don’t see anyone that managed to do it through seasteading. Seasteading without a doubt offers sovereignity on a whole different level when compared to other methods.September 3, 2011 at 7:50 pm #15219
I am paying 150$ for 100m^2 in a city of 3 million people, i also have a cafe/cyber cafe,115 m^2 interior, 50m^2 garden, i pay 250$ for it, so how come numbers in the orient are so different than in U.S. and Europe? I am not living in a crude apartment it is quite a nice flat, and my workplace isn’t bad at all, it would fail if it didn’t look good afterall. Though don’t get me wrong, you can get a 80m^2 for 2000$ in the same city, or it might even be higher according to it’s location. Cost of land is the primary indicator of the cost of finished housing, second is availability and prices of building materials, third is cost labor(a fourth indicator might come up if you count the taxes in some countries though). For a seastead only latter two applies. When we design a seastead if we are reaching a price that isn’t feasible then we must think of where the problem lies and solve it.
a)Minimalist Desing and Engineering: With minimalist design and proper engineering the problem of cost can be solved. But dynamics and hyrdostatics aren’t easy at all, and there aren’t really many engineers around who claim to be masters of these subjects even if they do, mostly they fail, and people who are known as masters might be too costly to hire for a small scale seasteading operation.
b)Design Scale: If we increase the scale of size, cost of each residental area/cell/room decreases. While this is a fact on land it is even more true at sea. This reduction has two main reasons: cost of building materials decrease due to common marketing practices, the more you buy cheaper it gets and we all know that we must get over certain engineering hurdles to build seasteads, like stability which is a must for living spaces, i think we all agree on that increasing size is the answer to that.
c)Material Cost: Material prices vary from location to location according to availability. The price of any commodity is cheaper when you are buying from the producer in large scale(wholesale) this is common sense, and to buy even cheaper we must either find someone who produces cheaper(somewhere with lower taxes, lower labor costs etc.) this also is common sense, so instead of calculating with prices at hand i think a research to find the best prices must be considered first. To reach the minimum possible prices seasteading movement might have to consider producing the building materials themselves in an economically ideal enviroment like 3rd World Countries where labor is cheap. Since R&D is a costly process we neglect doing reasearch on finding/inventing new materials yet investing on reasearch and development of new materials can decrease the material costs for a large scale seasteading investment.
i think we can count many more and possbily more cruicial problems&possible solutions. Mass production, legal issues..
One thing i must point out is that, it doesn’t have to comply with all maritime standards as long as it is proved that it is safe, there are many countries that wouldn’t be strict about what you swim in their seas, if you are stating that it is your house or giving the necessary ‘fees’. And i don’t understand how people living in containers in bulk carriers are considered seasteaders, though i have to agree that modular design,i think it is one of the key requirements of seasteading. Modular houses(containers) in a bulk carrier is what i would call a real estate business solution for increasing urban real estate prices. It is no different than buying a house. I would live there though, just beacuse it is cheaper(assuming it is cheaper, since otherwise only eccentrics would live there just to show off how different they are)
When i consider all technical and legal problems involving seasteading with my limited knowledge, i reach a conclusion that small scale personal seasteading outside eez is not possible for almost everyone, except for people who can buy superyachts for no practical reasons other than showing off. Only way to make it is either a cooperative effort to manufacture dozens of modular personal seasteads which can be interlocked to create a single seaworthy structure or a single giant/gargantuan sized seastead funded by an investor either for profit or ideology. And i don’t understand how people see a bottle island as seasteading, while i think it can be quite fun to live in a crude artificial island it is nothing more than a childish adventure(no offense, i am only stating what i think) it is same for Lake Titicaca natives too(still their methods are far better than bottle island and at least they have a society on their artificial island). Seasteading Movement’s purpose is to create a society of seasteaders out there, not to build n sell houses for/to people who live and work in metropols to lessen their life expenses by providing them cheap real estate.September 3, 2011 at 5:36 pm #15214
Being biased as a moderator isn’t actually wrong, his presence here represents TSI in some sense, it is perfectly normal for someone to be alienated for comments contradicting with the Seasteading Institute’s train of thought, Seasteading institute isn’t the only organization advocating seasteading while they are open to innovative ways of realizing this dream it doesn’t necessarily mean they would just agree with ideas contradicting theirs. Anyways you are doing great as a moderator especially for someone who doesn’t want to do this, infact i wouldn’t mind this type of threads vanish without giving us a chance to view them(ofcourse this is my personal opinion as a forum contributor who isn’t affiliated with TSI).August 30, 2011 at 4:57 pm #15099
When you are as rich as Rockefellers and such, one’s point of view to might changes, for poor might is to survive, for normal people like us might is usually the amount of money one has, for rich might is contacts, for rich people with sufficient contacts, might is knowledge, and finally might is power(literally, electricity). Money is a tool not the purpose, a tool to for anyone to make their dreams, idiologies come true, ofcourse they fund space programs and such similar projects, cos they exist( i follow Descartes here, they think therefore they are, they need to imagine, think wider than others to feel that their existence is more significant), their money, contacts give them acces to almost all current data, they need new data, money can’t give satisfaction to someone sane if you don’t use it but i’ve seen many people who feels eupheria by learning/discovering/inventing something significant i myself find most satisfaction by learning and broadening my vision. In our present world, you can either learn or buy information, oddly the latter is more efficient, and you can buy power with money(though the amount you can buy is limited to power that is available without contacts, i mean electricity with power again) and if you have contacts or enough money to hire such contacts with these three components you can make almost any dream come true. Since Rockefellar doesn’t need to count his money and his family is in a ruling lobby(which is a fact no need to argue about it i guess, they have the authority to press money as far as i remember) for a long while what he can do and want is limited to what he knows. Thus it is only neutral for him and people like him to fund novel projects.
Seasteading becomes a symbol of hope for; poor if it gives them a place to survive, normal people if it gives them a job to earn some bucks, for rich if it gives them a place to have fun and socially interact with people with similar social status. Generally it either needs to produce new knowledge, feasible energy or sufficient money to buy the first two, easiest is the first since the experience of living on sea permanently itself is a new data, same goes for spacesteadingAugust 29, 2011 at 9:11 pm #15074
What gives the computer to track my goods, transportation etc? What stops me from destroying the infrastructure which computer uses to track my transportation, trade etc. for the sake of personal freedom? Ofcourse there are laws, no society can exist without a governmental body, be it society itself or a dictator, even matter itself, our reality(or should i say actuality) is bound by rules, the more complicated a network gets more rules are necessary, it is common sense and yet liberterian and anarchist people find this as hipocrisy :S Our body works with its laws, a software is written with laws and works with it’s own laws, society is no different nothing is different something trying to try different will become nothing…August 27, 2011 at 12:41 am #14987
I’d rather not comment on this thread but i have a habit of reading everything posted and this thread causes brain damage even though it is temporary it’s still a health hazard someone please lock this thread-.-. I can’t hold it in though, gonna hAve to ask, let’s say aliens with cognitive intelligence exist and that they don’t hide their existence why don’t they interact with us while knowing that we are here? They just don’t care? If so what difference their existence makes to you? Why do you care? And what makes you think those stuff are aliens even your video links say that it might be manmade objects being kept in secret, and what is the big deal here? Do you think a nation would declare that she militarized moon? Ofcourse the pictures will be edited we don’t even have access to ocean floor maps that are being kept secret by them, why would they share a secret that might have immideate and future strategic value. This is how systems work, when did U.S.A.F. showed their stealth bombing ability to public? Let me guess, 20 years after they developed f-117? When did you buy i-phone 4? Last year? oh well it’s prototype was finished in 2004. When did you buy Celeron processor? 5 years after it was developed? Both commerce and politics require devising strategies according to the reality of the day(market, political enviroment etc etc.), even we do the same. Commercial Secrets, Military Secrets or even your secret relationships with your secretary they are all the same, there is a reason why they are kept secret. If you are so obsessed on learning whats on moon, go there, if you can’t afford it then why do you care? Cos they go there with your tax money? Don’t pay taxes then if you are prepared for it’s consequances. Just start a seasteading nation and wait until it becomes a spacefaring civilization which would probably take a few millennia at least since only thing that can advance would be fiction and imagination(which is not likely) in a society where people turn their heads from reality. ( damn i so hate being this aggresicve-.-) At least 7 out of 10 comments Smith makes suits my mentality in general but i have never agreed on anything and on anyone before this thread on these forums. And we already have a mad man nicked elspru we don’t need more, at least there is a method to his madness and genuine ideas behind his comments(though sadly they are written in elspru dialect and pronounced in elspru accent so it takes a while to comprehend what they usually mean for your average person).
MIGHT IS RIGHT!August 26, 2011 at 4:39 pm #14974
First of all i must admit that this wasn’t a bad read except for a few silly quarrels which i wouldn’t expect from people i didn’t expect.
Space on a seastead is expensive we(everyone) agree on that, to expensive to use on traditional farming yet i don’t understand why people are eliminating the idea and labeling it as a ‘waste’ something less profitable doesn’t mean it isn’t profitable. If an investmen is returning your initial capital in a given time (specified in a project before investing) and generating net gain after that period for a given time (again specified…) it actually means it is profitable. So i think those people must refrain from critcising farming on a seastead since it is obvious their expertise lies elsewhere.
I am assuming that our seastead isn’t just an investment but also a naval structure/vessel that has no flag or it’s own flag, do you really think we can trade and host tourists readily as soon as we build our seastead? If so where is that wonderland? Independency, Sovereignity… these all come down to self sufficiency if anyone thinks that by reading a few books and taking a few classes can get to teach them the real essence of economics and politics they are deadly mistaken and probably have no long term business experience. Don’t get any part wrong though, trading is an essential part of our life at the moment and it will stay that way as long as we live in an already existing state/nation and Unions will always exist between these nations and even bigger Unions will come to exist, it is true that Unions might assimilate member sovereign nation states that has democratic/capitalistic governmental/economical regimes/systems but it is only natural(literally natural). Reason is simple when you export stuff with high profit people tend to do that job, when you import stuff cheaper people tend to stop doing that business locally since it is not profitable thus the said nation becomes dependent on her trade partners in some sense, it is not necessarily bad thing though but it might become catastrophic if governance of the said nation is poor it might result in destroying the all the local industries, this is actually happening all around the world atm, chinese products swarming the world market, Mexican stuff in U.S. market these all harm local industry even with good governance it becomes a catastrophe for those industries in poor governance. Nations much like corporations go bankrupt allover the world and become lapdogs of their trading partners go live in 3rd World Africa a little and see it for yourselves if you like.
Returning to subject: Do you have acces to wholesale Kelp powder prices? I doubt the prices you have given were accurate(for wholesale since we can’t market it any other way if don’t have our own marketing firms). I am sure that i remember there are some Japanese families living in a town somewhere around Vancouver i’ve watched a documentary about their kelp farm in Discovery Channel, their goods were in high demand they were selling dried kelp, they were even isolating sugar from kelp or bake breads with some of it somehow, it’s been at least 5 years since i’ve watched it but i am sure it was Discovery Channel so i am positive you can find it if you look for it. I fully agree on having seasteads on vents for increased nutrients, If you can find hot vents in somewhere that is shallow enough you can use it for power generation or even mineral acquistion if it’s contents are right. Harvesting minerals in such manner makes it possible to create fully self sustaining hydro/aeroponic facilities and they don’t take much area, it yields more than ten times(actually it wouldn’t be overestimation if i say fifty times if you build it right) when compared to traditional farming still you can do the same on land and there are actually people doing it on land so it would be silly to do it on commercial scale and compete with those guys(what we should target would be to produce it at almost the same price as they sell it to us), what i am saying is that with proper expertise you can actually integrate farming to your system to promote a certain level of self-sufficiency in a feasible manner, i wouldn’t advise spending acreage to wheat/corn plantations and especially orchards(i assume no one really intends to plant trees on their ship/seastead except for recreational greenery) since their yields can’t be improved to feasible levels on a seastead so a seastead would not consume cereals and most tree fruits unless they import it.
Kelp really is one of the miracle commercial seaweeds, perhaps the best, i read about it throughly long before i joined these forums and as far as i remember they prefer cold waters and their nutrient content somehow gets richer in even colder waters(i again advise the documentary of Discovery Channel, really find and watch it). Though i’d rather live in tropical waters, if somehow genetic engineers decide to meddle with kelp’s genes to make it more resistant to warmer waters i wouldn’t think twice on adding it to my own designs probably as one of the primary income sources as you did. It’s been a while since i’ve read about it so i’ll dig through and see if i cand find a species that can endure warm waters.
This one is one of the most solid seastead business concepts so far, it is at least what i think. You might think about adding a fish processing plant onto your platform.
Still there is one thing i must remind, first seasteads(large sized) will either be resorts funded by millionaires or enviromentalist communities backed by charity funding and donations. Will continue later…Again, good work.August 26, 2011 at 12:44 pm #14967
Shoredweller you should really use the files the smith linked, they give a pretty good insight. Sadly it’s a fact that most of seafloor data is being kept secret so we either go for spots we can find with our current data or research seafloor by our own means which is not quite feasible unless you make some governmental agencies pay for it in exchange for data.August 26, 2011 at 12:20 pm #14966
Speacial shallow spots suit better to seasteading than land though, and we aren’t intending to build an oil platform as far as i know so structure cost example was irrelevant(though it has a nice point i don’t we think there are many individuals who can afford the 10% structural cost of an offshore oil platform :). I agree that seasteading in open ocean is doable too otherwise we wouldn’t be wrting/reading/planning/dreaming here. But i didn’t know how to run when i was just born while others who were already older did, my lack of experience in ocean and my passion for sea floor and reefs and most importantly amount of money i posess or at best can possibly posess makes my head turn to a fiber yacht which won’t make any difference in my lifestyle or ‘speacial shallow spots’. I’d rather walk around a mountain than climbing it to reach the village behind it. I don’t know i think it is common sense to start things the easy way if possible, thats why we are currently living on land afterall. Why bother to do it? well to put it shortly i don’t want to pay taxes anymore. Ofcourse there are more reasons though if all i wanted was to escape from taxes, i could devise other ways probably. I don’t know how to phrase it perfectly but i think this should do it, none of the cultures around suit me, when i behave according to my own code/culture/justice my life gets harder since society usually alienates individuals who tend to act different than tradition. I don’t want to pretend to be someone that i am not in order to do business. If you want to be yourself instead of using masks(persona) in social interactions you must find a culture suitable to your ideals, if there isn’t such a place you can either become schizophrenic and lose your real self(sanity) at some point or create your own society, i am hoping i’ll be able to do the latter. So for you seasteads are swimming residences which you can surivive even in ocean, ok i buy that but i am ok with anywhere as long as i can materialize my ideals and create my own society since it is almost impossible to do it on land i’d go for highseas. I am sure first immigrants to America settled in fertile lands or lands rich in precious ores not in barren land with less resources to offer(it was always the same for colonization not only America), for me a large shallow spot in ocean with a geothermal vent is similar to an oasis in a desert. We aren’t looking for adventure, we are looking for somewhere to live, that presently doesn’t exist. I am not intending to take over %70 of the world afterall why would i/we feel the need to colonize every square meter on this planet?
I respect you as a technician Wil and i am aware that people like you contribute alot to this cause though i don’t think your attitude is of a seasteaders(i don’t mean any offense in any way, and this sentence is baed on my personal view of seasteading) Seastead-er, ‘er’ doesn’t mean the one who ‘builds’ or ‘sells’ but ‘lives in’ it/her. While i always read what you write i’ve never once felt that you would actually feel like living on a small seastead permanently(i don’t know why, just a hunch perhaps and i also feel like you would like to live in a large seastead where you can continue your job, to build, repair and sell submarines/seasteads). This is possibly due to your technical personality, i don’t know about your ideals anyway you contribute to technical subjects on engineering and design rather than political debates.
Last Note: I agree on obsolete textbooks in some stuff, it is doable yet it is extremely expensive(since in order to float on ocean safely/comfy structure must be really big) , though i also agree that if we live in a submarine it is alot cheaper since we wouldn’t need such mass and volume for safety and comfort issues, however i can’t imagine a self sustaining submarine(my bad) i don’t think an efficient self sustaining system can be created underground or water, unless we are moored/built on/in some natural resource reserve which will supply us with sufficient power(even in underwater habitats and submarines it comes to special spots if we are really looking for to create a sustainable society). If we become dependent on land nations for everything other than what we sell, we’ll become labour slaves of those nations eventually since people/nations tend to exploit each others weaknesses especially in war and business).Sorry for the irrelevant content…August 26, 2011 at 11:11 am #14965
One kg of beef is like 23-25 U.S. dollars where i live, and u can actually buy a sheep(even a fat one) in Africa with that, still there are lotsa herders, and ranches in Turkey, customs tax for carcass meat is 75% still it’s quite profitable to buy from outside even with the high taxes. As far as i know people grow food to be self sufficient(it literally means independent). I agree about that importing might be a better choice for starting though. But when i imagine myself living on a seastead close to the shore i eat my own fish and greens, i’d import cereals, red meat and fruits though if ia m living on something similar to mmk. I think lettuce, parsley, cabbage etc can be produced effectively on sea, i do have experience with hyrdoponics and a little experience with aeroponics and i can assure you, you can supply a large family with all garden veggies only with a room sized greenhouse. If you have excess electricity than you will even need less area.Don’t get confused though I am not saying that farming on seasteads is feasible in a commercial scale, it is not, but it might be wise to be self sufficient as much as one can be you’ll still need to import nutrients for the plants you grow unless you can produce them yourselves though which is unlikely in a small seastead) That said importing stuff when yo can is probably the best way, except for fish-.-.August 26, 2011 at 10:20 am #14964
Tokelau is soon to be formally independent from New Zealand, they are already working on the legal framework elspru. And when i canditated such a location i didn’t think once about you and me going there to start this process but someone with required capital, though i might be able to acquire some capital enough for such project in not so far future i hope. Smith, Japan actually has a military, quite established one actually, even though they didn’t have a military for two and a half decades they did quite a good job to recreate their military in last few years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Self-Defense_Forces even though it’s branded self-defence force it’s naval and aerial intervention ability is more than what you would expect from a country that didn’t have a military for so many years, they have some military facilities(airports, naval ports) on islands scattered around western pacific(you might say that they can’t deploy their forces outside their territory bu they can/did/will). I can assure you invasion, isn’t an option anymore at this point in our history for a non-governmental organization, only way to invade a pacific island is to do it with money. Besides i am sure that pacific islanders would adapt to seasteading far better/faster than us, it’s more fruitful to invade the people on those islands too.
We need cash and a project that would appeal to islanders which will improve their livelihood and life standards. Compared to Kiribati people, Tokelau people are quite well off, they don’t earn much cash but they don’t really need it, they have better education; their lifestyle, health(mental and physical), and average age proves that liberterian ideals and communist ideals can actually be hybridized effectively in a small community(wheter it can be effective or not on large scales is open to debate…you might think these two ideals are contradicting each other but i think that’s not the case). And since they have such a small population New Zealand doesn’t invest more than she must to these islands, they don’t even have a port, not sewer infrastructure, no medical experts(currently a few atm, only one doctor as far as i know). They can sustain themselves quite well with fruits and fish yet they import most stuff from outside if they were to be acquianted with better way of self sustaining i am sure they would gladly adapt and be thankful for it.
If we are planning an island-port to start this i still think Tokelau is a good candidate. Though i’d still go for shallow spots in ocean outside of eez and narrow their number down according to their location and resources to find the ideal spot for a semi-permanent (very low mobility) or a permanent base for seasteading activities and perhaps construction. I’d look for geothermal vents+high rainfall or high irradiation+potential seafloor mining candidates…
All said, i have to agree on Kiribati is also a good place to start off. It doesn’t suit my ideal definition but it is quite a good place, their people is quite friendly too especially if they are convinced that you are the ‘good guy’. Even though our perspective to seasteading is quite different, and that i don’t have clue on the way to his madness( who is more sane is a question that is irrelevant to our subject) i still think that elspru and i think on the same line about many things regarding to seasteading (we name stuff quite differently though).
Last Note: First we must get some state nation to accept the existence of seasteads to start and spread seasteading, and small island nations are the ‘ideal’ targets where both we and them can mutually benefit from seasteading.August 24, 2011 at 10:29 pm #14901
Renting an island from a pacific nation would probably cheaper and easier for launching, you don’t need seasteading for ‘seabased defense technologies’ navy seals or sailors aren’t seasteaders, deep sea salvage? remote subs+research ships, again you don’t need seasteading… Seasteading literally means to dwell on seasteads(sea) 2nd and 3rd business proposals can be done by ships that are designed as good as any possible seastead perhaps even better. I’d rather rent an island from a pacific nation (e.g. Kiribati) than a floating platform for space launch, and such projects aren’t really suitable for the purpose of seasting anyways; they won’t deal with you since you don’t exist legally even if they do they’ll force you to give them service cheaper than anyone else, or they might even seize your space launch platform unless you belong to some nation (e.g. Japan). Seasteads are/should be designed for people to live on/in it and then do business not do business and live on it, don’t misunderstand that part imo, priority is being able to live out there and make it feasible by conducting business. Also it must be competetive, i’d rather study oceanography while cruising in a floating university than in MiT, i’d prefer a server floating out there to host my website so that my content wouldn’t be subject to most copyright laws, i’d rather my cash to be stored(even if it has it’s own risks) in a floating bank than some island nation if my money is white or red colored, I’d rather party out there than ibiza where no paparazzi can trace you, where no one limits what you use get high, where entertainment isn’t limited by state laws. I’d rather buy goods from a mobile dock on my route than visiting a nearby port if i was a tanker captain or naval transportation/logistics firm owner. Seasteads must be better suited to the subject business better than it’s land based and ship based examples. Casinos, Clubs, Brothels, Universities, Rehabilitation Centers, Medical Research Facilities(due to ethical and legal limitations in land societies), Renewable energy/fuel production, Commercial Ship maintenance, Data Centers, Holiday Resorts(Cruise Ships might actually be better suited for this but something new always attracts atttention of customers looking for exotic entertainment), Real Offshore Banking, Marina Services, Aquaculture… nothing else comes to my mind.August 24, 2011 at 9:42 pm #14900August 20, 2011 at 9:50 am #14825
Elections, sortitions…. Whomever can rule, will rule. Might is Right. I go for a doc when i am sick, i don’t expect anything else from a doc. a governor must be in same sense, trained solely to govern, though i wouldn’t want a minster of defense who is a politician, or ministry of industry…everyone should do what they were supposed to do, what they were trained to do. Best economist shold become minister of economy, best strategist should become minister of defense etc. What do we know of politics when we are compared to politicians who are trained to be politicians and who are passionate about their job( I’ll be optimist and assume such people exists) who are we to choose a president, they just show up offer stuff and we decide who to choose, i think it is way too stupid we don’t even know who we choose. Elections are for small societies where you know candidates personally, if seasteading is gonna start small then it’s probably elections for you(even though i said probably actually it is unlikely, since i believe that seasteads will likely be governed by it’s biggest funder. Democratic representation would only work for linked seasteads of familysize and they wouldn’t even need a representative for anything though perhaps except for foreign relations which will mostly be limited to talking to captains of large ships that are passing by)