Forum Replies Created
November 8, 2011 at 6:24 pm #16253
At least for Belize the crime happens in the cities, there is almost no crime as you get away from Belize City. The other cities are smaller and have less crime, but Belize City is no joke, treat it as you would Washington DC or Baltimore, MD.
I’ve got no issue with Colombia and having a person on site there is a benefit. I think Smit457 is fear-mongering but reality does not match his point of view.November 7, 2011 at 10:14 pm #16228
I remember reading Wayne’s article in the past (it’s good to see you posting Wayne!) and these thoughts really were the starting point of the seasteading movement. Organizing communal station-keeping is going to be a difficult prospect and raises the barriers of entry to groups that can afford water thrusters, a PC with wireless capability powerful enough to reach their neighbors and the electricity to keep these going 24/7. I’m a low-road fan (much like yourself) but I’d settle for low-tech solutions at the beginning.
Perhaps building floating structures off of an established and overpopulated island would be the ideal starting point for a seasteading effort. Venice wasn’t built in a vacuum, it was built around a location that was ideal for fishing and commerce. Since Seasteaders aren’t about to gather and build a community (so far) then it makes sense that we help an established community build and grow using the principles of seasteading.
In the end, any building project that rose in a void of demand was destined for failure. ‘Field of Dreams’ methodology only works if there exists a huge clientel of baseball fans willing to travel for your project and you enlist the aid of James Earl Jones. Tons of nation building groups have failed just for this reason. Seasteading as a technology rather than a political movement will succeed if folks avoid the doldrums of biting off more than they can chew. Let’s focus on getting the floating lifestyle down and find a central place where people can gather to experience it. If folks want to float out from there into the frontier, then they’ll be able to do so.
Building a modern Venice will open up all sorts of potential business and industry. Dealing with waste water is a fine example. There is plenty of technology that allows human waste to be carefully recycled into useful fertilizers. Instead of just ‘dumping this on the land’ somewhere, why not prefer a business to produce a product with value? This can be done with energy production, transportation, aquaculture… with Seasteaders producing land on the cheap and dynamic geography allowing the government to set up ideal conditions for growth in any of a variety of industries we have the potential to become a model that others copy.
I think one of the lessons we can learn are to build using materials that will not degrade over time. Concrete beats wood and steel. I think a second lesson is that we don’t have to start with a complete city. Find an ideal location where there is genuine demand and build as folks have need. Venice started out with a few islands so we can start out with a few seasteads. The third lesson we can learn from Venice is to build a free environment that folks want to live in. I think Charter Cities are already doing this well, so mimicing thier techniques should be encouraged.
Funny how things can come full circle again after so many years. I guess this just goes to show that good ideas are timeless until someone executes them.November 7, 2011 at 9:40 pm #16226OCEANOPOLIS wrote:
After almost 3 years, what’s another week? But you could be mistaken,…Elspru might be packed and ready to go. Somehow, I have a gut feeling about that.
Yeah, but my gut tells me he’s been packed up and ready to go for the last three years…
Many ideas have come and go over the years. Even Patri has moved on. This dream has staying power, it has remained worth my time to invest in it and I’m sure that one day it will come to be. Perhaps this iteration as an Intentional Community will be the trigger, maybe not. All we can do is work and eventually our efforts will bring about the dreams we hold on to.November 7, 2011 at 9:21 pm #16223
I like this. Here’s the first question I would ask: Is there a demand on Rincon for more land? If so, what kind of price will the market down there bear?
I think this has the potential to grow into something huge if it’s pitched right and we can bring on some investment capital. We’d be building the Venice of South America between Rincon and Balsillas. Using Wil’s methods we could keep our costs down and keep the rents low to grow out this community as quickly as possible. As the city grows, we’ll be able to increase rents and this business will become a wealthy land-owner in a city without land. The irony is amusing.
Find a buyer in Rincon, someone interested in having more space. Let me know how much capital you need to build it and we’ve got a good starting place. You can talk to the mayor from a position of strength at that point. This has nothing to do with SO:BIZ, but remains a good start to seasteading none-the-less. We get a single deal done here, then I’ll consider being the second client and ‘seasteading’ in Rincon on a simple platform structure. I’ll have to brush up on my spanish. That will give us two ‘proof of concept’ pieces and we should be able to expand from there. If Rincon does a steady business in tourism maybe Ocean will want to open his hospitality industry on a floating structure (that’d be 3 seasteads operating in this area).November 7, 2011 at 8:52 pm #16221
Tradeshow last week completely wiped me out. Good for business, hard on my time. I’ve got a visit to an Intentional Community not too far from me set up for next week-end, I’d like to get that under my belt as we’re planning to talk about the ideal design for a start-up IC with our goals. Might post something before then. I see Wil started another thread focused just on the property location. That’s good.
Patience is a virtue. Anything worth doing is worth doing right the first time. Unless I’m mistaken, no one is packed up and ready to move right now, so I’m using the time available to build the best foundation I can throw together on this.October 24, 2011 at 6:49 pm #15949
Whoa… nice blitz of activity this week-end. I’ll follow up later tonight with some input and answers. It’s been a busy week-end.October 20, 2011 at 2:33 pm #15899
Elspru, I see you’ve split off the ley lines into another thread, thank you. If you could do me a favor and edit out the posts here, that will help folks stay on topic.
Wil, what we’ve come down to is a few key points of participation. Folks need to consider whether or not they wish to ‘do something’. The forum is full of chatter and that chatter serves a purpose, it just no longer serves our purposes.
SO:BIZ is a good idea and it’s been refined by lots of input. It still requires refinement on some of the details but that kind of work can only be done by a group of people committed to making something happen. Folks need to decide if they’re willing to contribute and work towards this project or not. There is nothing more to discuss in an open forum like this.
The basic outline of what I expect from myself and anyone who is seriously interested in pursueing SO:BIZ is outlined above. If others are interested in doing the same then we’ll talk and come to a consensus on where we want to do this, what piece of property to purchase and how our community/company will be structured. Otherwise, this thread can rest and wait for a couple of years until I’ve taken the first steps myself. At which point I have no issue dictating exactly what conditions others can participate since I would have done all of the hard work myself.
If anyone has trouble understanding the concept of what I’m saying here, I’d advise them to go and read the children’s book titled, “The Little Red Hen”.October 20, 2011 at 2:15 pm #15898admiral wrote:
When I tried panning map, the cursor seemed to grabbed objects by accident a few times, circle with slash showed and object snapped back in place, so hope no changes made. Also, ley objects don’t seem to quite match map locations in SOBIZ ley lines map post.
Belize seems to be off the ley lines a bit, though central located between a pair. maybe we can install baffles along the lines to redirect some of the energy to a Belize site.
This is my favorite post. Pretty much of all time.
Nicely played sir.October 19, 2011 at 1:56 pm #15880
I personally don’t trust a digital currency.
TSI apparently is already set-up to accept BitCoin donations.October 19, 2011 at 1:55 pm #15883
I stand Corrected.October 19, 2011 at 1:53 pm #15886
I stand Corrected.October 18, 2011 at 9:57 pm #15884
I agree. What I’ve presented is an outline. Everything is up for grabs and discussion. The issue remains that one cannot have a conversation by oneself. Nor can a man sail a large vessel solo. If there is a crew here that can assess their lives and come to the conclusion that it is time for a change then we’ve got something to work with. If folks are comfortable where they’re at, then there is nothing to discuss. If that is the case then this thread ends right here and I work out SO:BIZ solo on my own time and coin for the benefit of my family without the concerns of others to worry about.
I’d prefer to work with others to build a community that will last the test of time and develop seasteading via a low road approach at a faster pace than I could accomplish on my own. It’s not going to happen behind a computer monitor though. Folks have to decide for themselves if they wish to be people of action or not. Life is a timed event, you figure out what you want to make of it. As for me an my house, well… you know the direction we’re headed already. Everything that could be said on this has been said. All sides and opinions have been heard. The time has come for action and each of us has a decision to make. Either decide you want to be a part of this conversation, where-ever it may lead, or opt out now by remaining silent.
This is my last word on the matter: Choose.October 18, 2011 at 7:57 pm #15879
The existence of an exchange does not guarantee the perpetual value of an item. When the percieved value plummets the exchange is helpless to artifically hold a standard of value. Gold on the other-hand has a universal value in disparate cultures and is accepted everywhere in the world.
In the end, the capacity to provide for your own needs and the needs of others regardless of the circumstances of the world around you has a value that cannot be matched. That’s my definition of wealth and currency. Everything else is an illusion we all accept so that we can fall asleep each night.October 18, 2011 at 1:11 pm #15876
Uh, Elspru… I know that the wisdom of God is foolishness to man but I’m having a lot of trouble understanding the basis for your faith in such archaic and unrelated theories. Since most of your balanced squares rest in the ocean, perhaps it would be ideal if you could set up a seastead in one of those locations. Though I’m open to SO:BIZ being set-up anywhere, I think the basis for a location needs to be something a little more firm than Ley Lines if folks are going to buy into it and come to a consensus. I will however make sure we set-up a fairy mound once we settle the spot… you know… just incase.
Octavian (OCEANOPOLIS), good refinement on my thoughts. Please allow me to further refine the points you listed above:
1. SO:BIZ will be a non-profit that holds ownership of the land as well as what we develop on it. It can lease out use of the land to a ‘for-profit’ business (like eco-tourism) if we have sufficient numbers who think they can pull it off.
2. Everyone who works will benefit from the lifestyle of living within a community. Should a business be started on the property, the lease costs paid by that company will benefit all members of SO:BIZ and allow for additional improvements. Profits the business makes will be paid to the folks running the business and SO:BIZ will not have control, though we will use the influence as land holder to push for fair pay to all workers of said business.
3. I think we need a group to agree to the basic contribution structure as well as the refinements listed between these two posts of ours. From there we refine our thoughts as a group. The post is up, folks can respond as they like at this point. If we can get a dozen adults involved at this point that would be good enough to start. Obviously, my wife and I make 2 already onboard… you’d make 3 Octavian, so 9 more at a minimum. There is no maximum but once we hit 12 we’ll start talking.
4. Done. See #3 above. We want people onboard here to help figure out the details. Folks can always opt out before we pull the trigger if they don’t like what we’re making. That’s one of the reasons we’ll be working by consensus, maximize people’s happiness with the decisions that are made.
5. For now TSI is fine. It remains the best online launching pad for Seasteading conversations.
6. No, you hit the nail on the head. Let’s get to twelve and continue from there.October 17, 2011 at 7:36 pm #15870
Looks like I need to step aside and give Wil the pulpit. That concise statement was dead on accurate. Congrats on getting the mega-sub ready to float out Wil. SO:BIZ doesn’t exist yet and the plans to bring it about are still intangible yet I think there is a consensus on this board that it represents the most likely avenue that Seasteading will be accomplished. Let the founder and his cronies attempt a ‘for profit’ initiative… I think investing in people is the only guaranteed way to compound your wealth but I wish them luck on an effort that is tied to market conditions that have no impact on.
We’re not the first to seasteading. I don’t mean the indiginous populations of some Asian nation who live on the water. I’m not even talking about using current technology to achieve something within the realm of the possible. I’m talking about real seasteading. Back in the 70s, during a ‘back to land’ movement (these seem to be cyclical and we’re likely approaching another one soon) a group of people built a platform several (60-80) nautical miles north of Haiti and lived on it. Apparently, they did something that pissed of the U.S. and the structure was bombarded with naval cannons and sunk. I know one of these former Seasteaders and learning from the mistakes of the past have helped me refine the dream of SO:BIZ to this point.
Every country needs a release valve for it’s dissidents and disenfranchised but there are some dangerous lines that could be crossed. SO:BIZ can act as a half-way point between current society and whatever is built on seasteads, sure. SO:BIZ can’t facilitate activities that would compromise it’s position dealing with local authorities (not that big of a deal) as well as the international marketplace. The U.S. has a big stick and a track record of using it recklessly against those it deems as enemies. As much as I’m all for the exercise of personal freedoms, I just want to be clear about a few things. If you’re planning on engaging in any illicit activities (drugs, hacking, sexual business, illegal emmigration/smuggling, etc) then SO:BIZ isn’t the place for you or your seatead. I’ve been working back and forth on the structure of an Intentional Community that will be the core of what SO:BIZ is to become. The devil is in the details but I might as well share some of the basics at this point to make sure folks understand what it is we’re building here.
In an organization with limited authority we would structure things so that decisions were based on consensus (and 3/4 vote should consensus not be met twice on a given issue), each member would have the following responsibilities:
Contribute financially: Perhaps as little as $1500 up front/adult and $100/month after that (maybe as much as $10k upfront and $600/month depending on what we decide to do). Members that could continue to work from any location with power and internet would be in a good position while others would have to find local work to support themselves.
Contribute physically: There’s a lot of work that needs doing. If we’re going to get this off the ground then members should expect to spend at least 2 hours/day working on projects at the Outpost. This is like doing your chores… aside from building and infrastructure work, meals need to be cooked and dishes need to be done. By working together on these kinds of daily routines we can leverage our time and each benefit from a good kick in efficiency and spare time.
Contribute socially: We need to get on the same page then stay on it. This requires communication, discussion and dialogue. A single meeting each week to keep this lifeblood of community going is mandatory for all members involved.
SO:BIZ is not a dictatorship. I won’t tell you what to do at every given moment. I’m forging a compact for a group of people to work together to achieve something greater than any one of them could accomplish on their own. There’s no authority priviledge, I’ll be as bound to do menial chores as every other member. The group will be empowered to make changes to this compact as needed. The outline of contributions you see above should serve as a good starting place for folks to analyze their level of commitment to a venture like this. We’re literally going to build this place from scratch, we’re going to build it to last and we’re going to build what we want and leave out all the pieces we don’t want.
The work we do at SO:BIZ will not be done for the purpose of personal profit. You’re contributions will benefit you in a plethora of ways and should some income stream come from a property you helped purchase and develop then you’ll share in those profits. Otherwise, we’re working to make seasteading a reality for ourselves and make the path a bit easier for those who follow in our footsteps. I have no doubt the life that we build together will be better than the life we currently live.
Weigh your feelings, digest the principles behind this post and contribute with your opinions and thoughts.
Oh yeah… and congrats on the 200+ posts.