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  • #24130
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    I’ve heard about those vertical garden systems and they seem to be very promising for growing vegetable on a seastead. BUT flour, rice, beans, corn meal, milk, meat, cooking oil, etc, etc, has to be imported.

    100% self-reliance in food production is impossible on a seastead. What we should aim for is 100% self-sufficiency, meaning that all economic activities aboard the seastead are generating enough money to keep the seastead up and running without the need to use “outside” funds in the process.

    To me, the way to address the whole issue of food production on a seastead is to start seasteading as a highly profitable business(es) that can pay for ALL the seasteading needs and, in time, to use part of your profits to build and raft up to your initial seastead “specialized food production modules” like: vegetable growing module, animal husbandry module, seaweed farming module, mussels & clams farming modules, etc.

    #24116
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    There was a thread few years ago regarding growing food on a seastead and the general consensus was that it wouldn’t make to much “dollars and sense”.

    If we really want to look into growing food at sea we have to first ask a simple question: How much land does it takes to be self reliant? The research to the answer to that question was started back in the 70’s by a man named John Jeavons. The “Bio-Intensive” method Jeavons developed has been implemented worldwide to alleviate hunger and malnutrition. Jeavons has a model for a vegetarian diet and the short answer is summarized as approximately 8,000 sq.ft. for a complete diet for one person (you need 4,000 sq/ft. of actual growing space and at least 4,000 sq.ft. for pathways and access). That is also assuming you have four growing seasons per year, and your harvest is 100% (no failures).

    Since it’s on a seastead, this 8,000 sq.ft. farmland has to be built. Assuming that the price of building it can be dropped to around $200/sq. ft. (which is really cheap compared to the TSI’s current projected price tag of $1000/sq.ft.) it would cost $1.6 Million to build the farmland to feed 1 person, veggies only :)

    Let’s ask another simple question: How much would it cost to feed 1 person a day on a seastead located 1500 nm from shore?

    Around $70/day.

    Now, on a different thread I said: “The only think that makes economic sense growing on a seastead is pot.”

    Lets see,… On 8000 sq.ft. you can grow 200 plants @ 1000 grams/plant every 90 days @ $5/gram wholesale. After expenses, that’s $3 Million/year net. That will feed 120 people ALL YEAR LONG.

    I am not a pothead, I am not growing or dealing. I am just giving you the numbers…

    In terms of fish farming at sea, to me, that would be like growing hydroponic corn while living in the middle of a corn field.

    #24089
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Well, ellmer, if you want to leave your own forum, than Vaya con Dios, amigo.

    I didn’t “propose” any project. JW didn’t “propose” anything, he’s just writing a seasteading novel…

    This is not the first time you are assuming a nasty attitude of “all knowing” and that your own posts are “supposed to have a kind of “leadership” in oceanic business development” and that everybody’s else comments are “nonsense talkers”.

    I am done putting up with your BS, man.

    #24085
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    JW,

    Ahi tuna is Yellowfin tuna. I cannot explain to you why the Hondurans fishermen are poor. I didn’t make this prices up, they are real and actual. For $10/lb a buyer will come to you once a month and buy everything you have (you’ll have to freeze it no matter what). If you freeze it and transport it to the closest market you will get $15/lb. Why would this be a “problem”? You need “transport” infrastructure on a seastead no matter what.

    I didn’t suggest to start and run a seastead on fishing alone. Far from it. I always said that “economic diversification” is the key to successful seasteading. I was commenting on your assumption that “it is clear to me that a floating city can only grow/fish about 5% of its needed nutrition” which is far from true when it comes to fishing. (don’t kill the messenger now)

    In terms of growing food on a seastead I don’t see how that can make economic sense. The only think that makes sense growing on a seastead is pot. (again, don’t kill the messenger)

    Now, all the fish are “endangered spices” nowadays. Sad but true.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/20/ipso-2011-ocean-report-mass-extinction_n_880656.html

    Will anything be done about it? I doubt it. Unless somebody is ready to take on multinational corporations who own fleets of super trawlers that are catching 400 tons a day/each.

    Does this mean that for the time being you won’t catch fish from a seastead at least for local consumption only?

    I highly doubt it,…It will be really silly not to do so.

    #24072
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    PS. Sorry, that’s 2000 TONS PER DAY @ Tsukiji!

    #24071
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    When it comes to location, I think the question is: Where would you rather seastead, JW?

    Here, https://www.google.com/#q=point+roberts+washington+weather

    Or here https://www.google.com/#q=key+west+florida+weather

    Here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3Uz63wdT2c

    Or here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6N1EE_M_og

    Regardless, I do agree with your assessment regarding Gulf of Fonseca and Kiribati, but I disagree on the fishing percentage when it comes to a small size seastead (up to, lets say 1000 people). In fact, such a seastead will be self-sufficient (food, energy, and all other supplies and necessities) + cash in the pocket on fishing alone.

    10 x 300 pounds ahi tuna will bring in at least $30,000/day. 5 small fishing boats based on a seastead can catch that before lunch,…

    Two SMALL net fishing trawler can catch 5 metric tons of sardines/day/each @ $2000/metric ton = $20,000/day.

    That’s $50,000/day without even over fishing, when we consider the fact that only Tokyo’s Tsukiji wholesale fish market sells 2000 pounds of fish PER DAY.

    #24064
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Coming back to the subject at hand, my view is that before going global, any seasteading will start locally. And depending on location we will see a variety of seasteading oriented businesses.

    The truth of the matter is that what works in California will not work in Florida, Cartagena, North Carolina, etc. and vice versa. It all has to do with the climate on each location. A Quicksilver like business will only work on a equatorial or tropical coral reef location (Australia, Florida, Belize, South Pacific, Indian Ocean). It will be useless in the North Sea or in the middle of any ocean, floating in 5000 ft of water…

    Also, I can hardly envision anything floating permanently N or S of the 45 degree (N or S) of latitude due to harsh, long and heavy seas winters. But that’s just me, writing from Florida :)

    #24062
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    LOL,…it was an actual “human size” hamster ball. I saw that in the paper few days ago.

    But now (believe it or not), the guy is pissed that the CG didn’t “save” his plastic ball too!

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2781518/I-want-bubble-Bungling-adventurer-trying-walk-ocean-rescued-getting-lost-upset-plastic-ball-wasn-t-saved-too.html

    #24059
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    On a related business to seasteading note, it seems that BlueSeed is no longer there,…Does anybody knows anything about it?

    #24052
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    You guys are killing me with this “seasteading spheres”…

    I might dig it as a “designer’s choice” for the interior of a seastead, but no value whatsoever as a “prime” choice for a seastead’s hull design (surface or semi submerged).

    #24041
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    I see. Thank’s Ellmer! Very useful information.

    #24039
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Ellmer,

    Of course seasteading should be “done” in concrete, we did agree on this one long time ago…. One question I have for you is regarding the difference between what you call “concrete honeycomb shell” and steel reinforced concrete. Is it the same method of fabrication or there are some differences?

    Spark,

    What you are describing is operating as non profit organization. There are several tax exempt statuses for such type of organizations as defined by IRS code.

    Read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c)_organization

    An initial capital investment is still required by the founders to form such an organization, but it can also be in the form of a donation or grant from another person or another non profit organization.

    I did some research some time ago and I think one in particular might work pretty good in the context of seasteading.

    http://cullinanelaw.com/501c7-social-and-recreational-organizations-how-to-stay-tax-exempt/

    Also, keep in mind that just being a “non profit” it doesn’t mean that your organization cannot make a profit as we know it.

    #24031
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Ellmer,

    I don’t differentiate between “big” or “small” business, it was just an observation of the current trends.

    I’m sure that in this day and age we can do a bit better in terms of infrastructure design and “looks” than the Tankas :) In terms of interference from the State of Florida, so far it looks pretty mild towards other floating businesses moored in state waters. As long as you’re licensed and respect the environmental regulations, they are welcoming your tax dollar,…

    Hurricanes are a way of life here in Florida. One either accepts it and lives with it or moves out of state…The solution is to build any “seasteading oriented” business mobile and be able to move up or down the coast few hundred nautical miles towards sheltered waters.

    I do like the Bay of Cartagena location and potential since and the absence of hurricanes is GOLDEN. I said it before. But for my wallet is to far to reach and relocation (gildfriend with an established local business and dog) it’s out of question for the moment,…

    Spark,

    Of course that if you invest in a business it’s all yours :) The idea that someone will build a big seastead on their money and than invite people to populate and run it’s a fantasy (unless some eccentric billionaire might do it,… but what are the chances for that to happen?)

    When we are talking about a small seasteading oriented business venture, I personally think that a partnership would work best and would be the WISE think to do instead of a sole proprietor. The reason is that no matter how good the planning of such business is, “seasteading” is still a “NEW CONCEPT”, therefore risky.

    Just as an example,…Assuming you have $50k to invest. Would you put “all your eggs” in one basket that might break? Or would you rather invest only $10k with other 5 “like minded” people who are ready to and work together towards the same goal?

    If you pick the first scenario, you are a gambler. Yes, you might make it big. But if you fail, you lost everything you have.

    If you pick the second scenario, you are a “high risk” investor. If you make it, it won’t be that “big” but it can continue to grow. If you fail, you lost a little and still have enough capital to try something else.

    To me, what would matter most would be TO MAKE IT HAPPEN (how “big” or “small” in size or in dollar amount being irrelevant since if it happen it can always be adjusted later) on an AFFORDABLE DOLLAR INITIAL INVESTMENT.

    #24028
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Anyway, certain marine businesses will lead to seasteading. But I don’t foresee the big “marine business” corporations getting involved too soon and/or in the way we look at it. I might be wrong, but I personally think that they simply don’t “get it”…

    What seems much more likely to happen is for privately owned start ups to open “seasteading oriented” niche small businesses close to shore and grow from there. I already see it happening here in Florida. Pontoon based floating fast food businesses are popping up left and right at the local on-the-water hangouts. Some, will even deliver to liveaboards at the local marinas. Some, won’t even live their location and are already permanently moored as “floating fast food islands”,…

    Also, we are witnessing a big increase in people living aboard down here. The reason is that due to a lot of foreclosures, decent rental properties are scarce and rent is getting high here. With wages stagnant and low here in Florida, and with the overall increase in the price of living, living aboard is a perfect alternative to paying high rent. It’s just a matter of time before small floating villages will start popping up here and there, and with them, the related services.

    It will always boil down to the basics: supply and demand.

    #24027
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    It’s OK by me if you are so against “discussing political systems” :) I don’t have a problem with conversation or any “terminology” that’s used to describe “whatever” future seasteaders will use as the “rule of their land”, as long as it works and if people feel comfortable to do that.

    With or without “picking a system”, when people vote directly on a motion it is called referendum, or direct democracy, which in my book it’s the only type of “true democracy ” out there. Personally, I do refuse to discuss or consider anything else other than a referendum based seastead. It will be just a waste of time,…

    Regardless, I do firmly believe that there has to be a “Charter” or “Constitution” of some sort outlining fundamental rights, because I’m not at all inclined to waste time voting on countless race, gender, sex, etc vs. race, gender, sex, etc petty “daily motions”. And, the least amounts of laws or regulation and voting on crappy subjects, the better :)

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 1,213 total)