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Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 1,068 total)
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  • #23259
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Dahhh,…what’s cheap nowadays?? The mix is 2 to 1 portland to sand. If anybody’s gonna “mess” that one up they belong to a Zoo…

    Guys,…I owned a 40′ Samson ferrocement sailboat in the 90′s. “Medusa” was beautiful… She was custom built in 1975, all teak interior, circumnavigated twice and spend most of her life in the South Pacific. Her hull was bulletproof,..literally and everything on her was built to far better than Lloyd’s specs, stainless steel and bronze everywhere. Heavy displacement ocean cruiser, 20 tons. I have and will always regret selling her…

    There are no better boats than ferrocement boats (of course, when built right) and they will outlast any boat out there,…for decades.

    #23252
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    ellmer,

    Yes, the ferrocements boats got a bad rap because of some really lousy “backyard” built ones. But 2 companies got it right in the 70′s and their boats quality is outstanding, most of them still cruising as we speak. Samson Marine of Costa Mesa CA, and Hartley of Auckland New Zealand.

    http://www.hartley-boats.com/ferro.html

    #23251
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    I guess for that size boat is good enough. For ocean going boats the armature is much stronger and they use multiple layers of chicken wire.

    http://www.kgrawood.com/bb.htm

    What different stress levels?…LOL, aren’t we talking about “floaties”? I mean, where (or how far) offshore are you gonna take them? How big are they anyway, if I might ask?

    #23248
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    I like the last one. Heavy duty, no thrills, no rocket science, will last “forever”. Don’t even have to paint it… Just hop on and go :)

    #23247
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant
    #23246
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    You are doing it all wrong :) Just messing w/you :) You can build your floaties in ferrocement.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIKHRq7yjY8

    #23200
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Kat,

    To me there is no such a thing as “private seastead”…If it’s private, it’s your sailboat, or your yachts or your private floating island and you live aboard there. Even the idea of a big floating island run as a business owned by few wealthy individuals it’s not seasteading. Just bigger, still private nothing else. As I said, where is the difference, the progress?

    That’s why I have been thinking of going as a non profit, because if a small floating structure is built as such, than it will be owned by the members of that organization. They all get to enjoy it, they all get to participate in paying for operation and maintenance, they will all be able to cast a vote for “what’s next”. In many terms, it will “mimic” a “micro society” sharing that floating platform as it’s “territory”.

    It’s a lab and we are all lab rats :)

    Anyway, to answer your question, what if such seastead gets run over by a hurricane and survives and whats next? Well, assuming this is something around 100′ LOA, it means that whoever build it did a hell of a job, whoever captained it should be fired ASAP and we are all exceptionally lucky to still be in one piece. That seastead should have been 300 nm away from that storm dug in a “hurricane hole” somewhere. What’s next? I guess you live and learn :)

    If the seastead goes down, it is what it is and you better have insurance. If you don’t, you lost everything. In the best case scenario, if sank in shallow waters, you might be able to salvage and re float the hull but the rest (engine, generators, electronics, electrical systems) are gone since they’ve been submerge in salt water. Scrap metal. In 90% of the cases the cost of the salvage operation it’s not worth it, unless you have the equipment.

    In US no matter if you are for or not for profit you WILL have to deal with the CG in one way or another. No way around it. Well,.. unless you are private. If me and 5 or 10 or 20 people build a seastead and we register it as a pleasure vessel we will all have fractional ownership (sort of like a timeshare). Then we can use it (for pleasure only) as we want, when we want, without the need to be inspected or certified by the CG. The moment we hit the high seas, we can do whatever (almost) we want aboard. But now we are back to square 1 since we are private. Are we seasteading? If we all decide to make that difference, I guess we could be a private seastead. We make our rules, who can come aboard, how long can they stay, how much they pay, how much fish do we fish, who will sell it to, for how much, and the rest of whatever we want to do, I guess.

    #23198
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    OK, it will be only $6k, or $20k, or $1k. YES, you have grease a lot of palms, CG, City Hall, State, EPA, Federal, etc, they all want a bucket of your sweat. Nothing new. It was just an example of how a relatively low investments with conventional, proven “means” of seasteading can generate revenue so something bigger can be eventually build.

    And let me clarify few things. I am not criticizing ellmer’s ideas. I just disagree with few minor topics. Overall, ellmer is right on the money with most of it, since he was talking about the BIG picture. The WHOLE process of seasteading, from the first module (location, size, shape, price, etc), construction, funding, the transition stage, all the way up into the future aspects of operation, maintenance, supply, etc. of the offshore seastead, everything has to be planned solidly. And than there is execution. You can have the most brilliant and polished business plan on the whole block, but if your execution sucks you’re done and gone.

    Finding investors, I mean @ the level of $ tenth millions will also be one of the hardest tasks. Yes, I am convinced that seasteading will be VERY profitable and I can prove it, black on white. But that doesn’t mean that right away, some big time hot shots will rush to sell their bonds, stocks, ETFs, etc portfolios or empty their Swiss or Cayman Bank accounts and flock to Seastead LLC with their cash, “here, pleeeeease take it and tomorrow I will bring more”.

    If it would have been that easy it would have happened by now.

    The present perception about seasteading is “It’s never been done, therefore is very high risk”. That perception has to be chanced and that’s a catch 22. Somebody has to built one and prove all the non believers wrong.

    #23195
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    ellmer,

    As a general rule, everything is easier said than done.

    Now, I don’t think that Richie Sowa was ever interested in “seasteading” as we define it now…When he was goofing around building a floating island out of trashed plastic bottles there was no “seasteading”,…The man is an artist, a hippie, an environmentalist, a dreamer, dude :) He doesn’t give a shit about “credibility” or “investors confidence” or ROI,…but it looks to me that his “business model” is working.

    “Come aboard! 50 pesos donation and I literally pull the island to you and you get a tour.”

    Listen, while everybody else was just talking, he rebuilt his Spiral Island after the first one was trashed by hurricane Emily in 2005. We have jack shit. So, who’s goofing around?

    This video tells it all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnLhWpy_nqI

    And my questions to all of you here @ TSI is: Why wasn’t (or isn’t) he the poster child of the seasteading movement? Or, he wasn’t the “type”,..didn’t fit the “profile” of the Silicon Valley expectations,…just a “weirdo”, and the need was mostly the “eccentric” type? How about a “Summer of Love & Seasteading” Event, bring Richie down there to show us how it’s done and have him start a “Spiral Island” in SF Bay. A little media coverage, some corporate sponsors and bam!, you’ll raise $5 Mil. Well,…I know, a bit ’70ish and crazy…like a kid starting a software company in his garage :)

    Now, maybe for some, “houseboat seasteading” is trash, “Sowa type”, ghetto, slum like seasteading, undesirable compared to the grand vision of the future corporate financed seasteading ventures. But the fact of the matter is that a 10 houseboats raft up, when rented out to the “lower class”, working, regular 99 % “type” of people, will produce a $8000.00/month working capital. How is that for a TRANSITION? What is “our” working capital right now? ZERO. And talking about the investor with some knowledge of marine business, he will ask you straight up why your 70′ “seasteading module” is a ramform design built from scratch for a bay with a depth of 30′ of water and 7′ waves and it costs $700,000.00 when some guy down the road has that 70′ Man Made Key for $85,000.00 and will make the same money as yours.

    I always said that there is a big difference between the “business of seasteading” and “seasteading as a business”. You talk mostly about seasteading as a business. I tend to talk mostly about the business of seasteading. That’s where we have our differences.

    I want to know firsthand how the workers on that seastead will be treated, what their rights are, will they have representation, healthcare, 8 hrs workday, 40 hours work week, overtime, healthcare, maternity paid leave, pension, etc,…and then we can talk about seasteading as a business.

    Or, is it that since we’ll be 1000 nm offshore under no jurisdiction, we’ll get some Haitians, Mexicans and Guatemalans, pay them $1/hr, work them 16 hrs days, and treat them like dirt, because it helps our bottom line and will improve shareholder value.

    From what you are saying it sounds like “business as usual” on your seasteading proposition. And I am not quite inclined to go seasteading that way…I need to see a difference, a political and socioeconomic leap forward, PROGRESS.
    Otherwise, it’s just another business.

    #23190
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Kat,

    The best thing to do is call the CG or go in person there and talk to them, since whatever you are building will fall into “new boat construction” and depending what you are going to use the boat for, (pleasure or commercial) if you want to register it, the CG might have to inspect it DURING THE CONSTRUCTION PROCESS to give you certification. My advise to you is go talk to them before building anything…

    For the last week I’ve been looking for the CG regulations regarding non profit organizations and all I find is ambiguous and nonsensical…12 nm offshore location looks better and better by rge day. Anyway, during those searches I did find out quite amazing facts (kind of not related to seasteading).

    For example, did anybody know this?

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-14/tax-exempt-firm-gets-600-million-profit-flying-first-class.html

    Unreal. ABS is a “non profit”. Wow!

    #23187
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    ellmer,

    I do understand what you are saying. But the “level” of seasteading you are talking about now is in the the range of 3000′+ LOA structure, displacing millions of tons, with a starting price tag of at least $10-20 Billion. And I did say that I don’t have a problem with it and if someone has the money and will to do it, kudos to them. But how realistic is that such project will happen in our lifetime? You tell me…

    And what happen to the incremental & modular seasteading ideology that at some point we all seem to agree upon?

    What is wrong with a 80′ or a 120′ or a 200′ seastead, population from 10 to 50 that we can REALLY build in the next few years? And keep on building them, attach them to each other, and grow little by little, and by doing so we’ll be GETTING SOMEWHERE instead of still just keep on talking about it and getting nowhere…

    #23184
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    So, I guess since we won’t send a Mayday, we shouldn’t have VHF radios on board. Since we’ll “dump the concept of rescue of the entire population from a seastead completely” we won’t need live vests for the entire crew and passengers or life boats or abandon ship kits with water, tablet food, sun screen lotion and medical first aid supplies.

    All this because it’s 100 % GUARANTEED by the builder that shell seastead will be 100 % safe with no engine and none of the above, hanging by a steel cable in 2600 m of water 1000 nm offshore.

    As I said, best of luck with it. There is a very good reason that engineers build floating structures and sailors run them.

    #23180
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Very interesting indeed. I have to admit that I am not following the offshore oil industry news to much. Also my seasteading vision it’s mostly based on the “old school” belief that “Navigare necesse est”, “To sail is necessary”. Therefore I believe that seasteads should be highly mobile, being able to move around, look for new business opportunities whenever they are in order to survive.

    I have nothing against a seasteading venture moored 1000 nm offshore in whatever depth it’s there, engine or not, as long as they can build it and make it happen out there. Best of luck to whoever will do it. But I wouldn’t invest in such venture since it’s not my “gig”. And I am sure that a future mobile seastead will stop by to visit and do business with such a stationary seastead and they will get along quite fine.

    But make no mistakes, if in a hurricane that stationary seastead with no engine, with 500 souls aboard breaks loose from the mooring 1000 nm offshore and God forbid something goes wrong and it puts out a Mayday, nobody will be coming to your rescue in that type of weather, nobody. In this situations is every man for himself and it looks pretty fucked up to me.

    Also make not mistake, if sooooooooooooo lucky that any vessel will respond to that Mayday and put itself and its crew at risk to save the stationary seastead (and that’s a big if…) there will be a HEFTY salvage fee there,…

    #23177
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    But even for a (lets say) 1000 m (3000′) LOA seastead (like the one you showed above) you need engines. Even if you don’t navigate, you need them for 3 reasons:
    1. Dynamic positioning (DP), since you will be drifting with whatever current it’s there. Otherwise, you will be starting off California coast and end up in Japan :)
    2. Same idea, but to be able to heave to and ride a storm in order to avoid drifting with a hurricane or a storm.
    3. If the seastead it’s an atoll type with a lagoon open to the stern (my favorite design), you’ll have to keep the bow into the wind so your local traffic, in and out of the lagoon, is protected from the elements, on the lee side.

    #23172
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    The 2 or 3 or 10 times the “wavelength” is a very relative term. In reality, “out there” it means nothing because you gonna get pounded from any direction.

    This is the Saffir-Simpson hurricane wind scale.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saffir%E2%80%93Simpson_hurricane_wind_scale.

    Please note that @ 60 knots, is not even a hurricane, but “just” a tropical storm. Now, watch this 180 m (590 feet) vessel in a 60 knts storm. It lasted 10 days.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2fEv1jr7Vc

    How comfy would that be in a Cat 4 or 5 @ 137 + knts? Please,..lets be realistic. There is no such thing as “comfortable” at sea, the way you imagine it from the prospective of living on land. If you REALLY want to seastead you WILL go through storms like the one above and much worst at least 4-5 times a year if not more. If you can’t, mentally and physically, seasteading is not for you.

    Also, the seastead cannot be “dead in the water” (stationary, without engines) in a storm like that or in any storm. It HAS to make way (move under power), otherwise will capsize. These are realities, I am not making this up. Therefore, everything planned regarding seasteading has to follow and adept to those realities.

    ANY SEASTEAD WILL HAVE TO HAVE AN ENGINE AND BE ABLE TO RUN OR RIDE A STORM.

    But, the beauty of seasteading is that since there is no ETA or a destination to get to, such storms can be avoided ahead of time.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 1,068 total)