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Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 1,164 total)
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  • #23871
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Spark,

    Fish farming is labor intensive and low profit margin. You’d be better off (profit wise, I mean) by just fishing.

    Personally, I don’t see no practical value of geodesic domes or spheres when it comes to seasteading.

    #23867
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    To start with, “Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”

    Here are the facts:

    I never said that technology IS NOT the driving force of how we live.

    I never said that seasteading is “something that will come for future generations”. All I said was “I am aware of the fact that MAYBE, some day, in a distant future (when I’ll be dead) there will be a choice of seasteads to pick from.”

    If Peter Thiel thinks that seasteading is “a way to escape politics in all its forms” he should build a seastead according to his vision. He definitely can afford to do so.

    I am not here to impose on anybody’s opinion, but to present the facts of how I will do it. And I quote: “It involves forming a community of “like minded individuals” who will in fact invest in themselves by build a seastead together. My view is that without seasteaders, how can you have a seastead? Without having “like minded individuals”, how can you have seasteaders? Without outlining AT LEAST a basic set of political and socio-economic guidelines, how can you determine the “like minded individuals” from otherwise?” Also the fact that: “To me, a direct democracy system (referendum based) would be the best choice….Personally, I won’t participate in any seasteading project that’s not based on (or at least similar in ideology) to the above principles.”

    If anybody believes the same, they are welcomed to the conversation and we can join forces. If not, they can go seasteading the way they want and I wish them the best of luck.

    #23862
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Zutai,

    I am aware of the fact that MAYBE, some day, in a distant future (when I’ll be dead) there will be a choice of seasteads to pick from. But that’s of no importance to me now. I deal with day to day realities, man.

    And one such reality is that soon, in the very close future (when preferably alive) I will invest some of my money into a seasteading “something”. That doesn’t mean that I will build a seastead and invite people over, it doesn’t work like that. :)

    It involves forming a community of “like minded individuals” who will in fact invest in themselves by build a seastead together. My view is that without seasteaders, how can you have a seastead? Without having “like minded individuals”, how can you have seasteaders? Without outlining AT LEAST a basic set of political and socio-economic guidelines, how can you determine the “like minded individuals” from otherwise?

    The reason for the above rational is that the first seastead will most likely have under 30-40 people aboard. If you’ll have 5 communists, 5 fascists, 5 monarchists, 5 libertarians, 5 totalitarians, 5 democrats, 5 republicans, etc. aboard a seastead, to start with, they will kill each other in the first 10 min.

    What’s the point of the whole effort if it will end up with such a fuck up?

    #23860
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    So,…should we understand that you want to live on a kingstead too? :)

    #23857
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Will, there was no pun intended with “living in a bubble”.

    So, you basically want to build floating real estate moored in the vicinity of that island?

    #23854
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    OK, let’s assume that some people would agree to live in a bubble for the rest of their life. What’s next?

    #23850
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Whatever rocks your kingstead, dude,…I mean King Zutai :)

    At this point, it is a bit unclear to me in what capacity you would join another seasteading project. What other skills other than king :) would you bring aboard? “cause I’ve been here for a while and I’ve never heard anybody saying: “Man, we need a king sooooooooo badly for our seasteading project and we can’t get one….”

    #23847
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Zutai,

    I agree that in general, if people are happy, we could say that the system works, even though happiness is a very relative word. (a person living on $1/day would be ecstatically happy with $10/day). But I don’t agree with your assumption that since monarchy was here for a long time, it “worked”. It didn’t. For centuries monarchs ruled by the sword as totalitarian warmongers who enslaved and killed hundreds of millions of people during the course of history.

    Regardless, I don’t see how this is gonna work in the context of seasteading, even if the “king” is benevolent and it’s monarchy constitutional. Since kings don’t get “elected”, somebody has to proclaim himself “king”. That’s a very non-democratic process, to start with. Even so, assuming that one does that and comes up with a seasteading plan, than I think the “king” should build the seastead himself, out of his on pocket. He’s the king, it’s got to be his own kingstead :)

    If you want to be king, Zutai, can you build a seastead on your own cash? ’cause if you can, when it’s done, I’ll come and call you “your highness”, if you insist :) But if you can’t, what’s the point of your seasteading monarchy?

    Spark,

    “Anarchy” is not the proper word do describe what you envision. Maybe an “environmental self sustainable seasteading applied realism”? :)

    #23845
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    I don’t think a monarchy (or even a constitutional monarchy) would be the answer. Why use a medieval system in the 21st century?

    Also, I would stay away from the representative democracy system that is used nowadays, mostly worldwide. Just look around the world and see how good that’s working,….It basically degenerated worldwide into a de facto totalitarian corporatist plutocracy.

    We should start by looking not at what we want as a personal choice, but what we really NEED in terms of governing a seastead. The fact of the matter is that if in 10 years from today we will have a 500 people seastead, that will be a huge success. Assuming such scenario as a fortunate possible outcome, what kind of governance and more importantly, HOW MUCH of it do we really NEED for 500 people? Not much at all, in fact…

    To me, a direct democracy system (referendum based) would be the best choice..

    I called it unanimocracy. Unanimocracy is a referendum based democracy in which a high percentage absolute supermajority vote is required for any legislation to become law. It is my belief that the unanimocracy system will create a smaller government, fewer laws and diminish political opposition, thus reducing social antagonism. Smaller government, fewer laws and less political opposition combined, will result in better preserved individual freedoms and a better, more stable and fair political system.

    Personally, I won’t participate in any seasteading project that’s not based on (or at least similar in ideology) to the above principles.

    #23842
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    I don’t think that we are off topic at all.

    This is Zutai’s original post:

    “I have planned out a project that will have many aspects that most would find of use to the planet as a whole, and the individuals as well. Though the acquisition of the plastic already in the oceans, it is possible to fill nets, that when tethered together, they can form a rather buoyant raft. With many of these rafts, it is possible to build an island, large enough to house a village or town, as it grows large enough for a city.
    The plan as it stands, is to use dredge pumps to pump water into nets, in the most concentrated areas of the pacific gyre, to gather up enough plastic, to sausage out the nets. With the plastics still in the water, they will continue to absorb the hydrophobic chemicals, and remove them from the ecosystem, for the most part. As we gather more and more plastic into these nets, tying them together, they would build a raft that in turn, will let us build on. The plastics are removed from the oceans, and we have a system to build on top of. Many people will come to aid, merely to help get the plastics out of the ecosystem, due to it’s damage to the wildlife. Making this part of the project, one that should have the most aid.
    Once the raft is large enough, farms should be the first things we start, due to the roots reaching down into the plastic, to make it more stable. With the farms shielding the plastics from the sun, while binding them in a root cluster, we will have little worry for the lifespan of the raft. We will have to look into using sea weeds and the like, for the edges of the raft though. Something that will not die off fast, and grow fast, as we force the middle areas into shade, while the edges grow outward. With these root system, salt water should be less of an issue, when looking at the saltwater contamination of the crops. Though we should still look into salt tolerant plants, for the early farms.
    Once the farms have made the base more stable, we can look into the types of buildings we want to place on the raft. Placing a concrete base on the soil/plastic, will help it to stay firm, as the raft shifts in the waves, but it would have to be self stable. We would need to make it so it does not crack of crumble, as it’s base shifts. Making the concrete thicker, can help with this, while keeping the buildings farther apart, would help them to be able to shift with the shape of the raft. Early builders would be best suited for living quarters and farm houses. Large buildings will not come in till the raft can be stabilized. Roads may be one of the hardest things we try to build on this shifting surface. We may look into using something other than concrete or asphalt, due to the early traffic being by foot anyway.
    As the raft grows, and it’s ports becomes busy with trade, the economy of the town/city will come into it’s own. At this time, we would look into finding a place to settle down, and way anchor. Sending a tube down into the seafloor, and turning it into an elevator shaft, will give us the ability to mine the bedrock of the ocean. With this, there will be a lot of junk rock that we cant use. This junk rock, will be used to build up under the raft, till it is able to make the raft, into a true island. As the island takes shape, larger buildings will be able to take shape. Giving us the ability to build factories that are able to process resources, and send off products to the docks for trade. While at the same time, the mines will give us a new place to build. Sending most of our industrial buildings underground, will give us a way to channel the exhaust from all of them, into an algae filtration system. Taking in the noxious fumes, and giving us fresh air, to let into our city.
    The government system as it is currently planned, with be a monarchy, with a council having most of the power. The king would be able to step in and act as an enforcer in times when the council is acting against the best interests of the people, but should not make a habit of it, when not needed. Having a council per topic, would make it so each resource is used in the best way. Defense, offense, schools, farms, mines, and trade, will be the main council types, so as to best run the country. With this, there should be less struggle with the budget, and how it is used, when it comes time to build a military, vs. build a school. Both systems will have options to budget themselves, and find ways to make money independently.
    There is also plans for an economic system, that strives to use the best of socialism, and capitalism to make the best possible system. With no basic bills like rent, net, electric, and food, the money they do bring home from their jobs, will be all for play. With a lack of minimum wage, and a lack of basic bills, you will be able to find the work you want, over the work you need. With this system, there will be little to no poverty in the country. Outsiders will have to pay a major tax, that brings things up to a “normal” outside price though. This economic system, will have to be gone over in greater detail though.
    As the island grows, it will become clear that we will have many kinds of people, struggling to live side by side. There will come a point, when we must build more islands, using our economic powers. With such, we will be able to use the knowledge we have gained, to build the new islands faster, stronger, and longer lasting, then the first one. Having the power to build a network of islands with their own governing system, will give us the ability to customize more so, to each personality type. There will come an island for those who are set in their old ways, and those who are striving for the new. There will come those who are strict on their laws, and those who build a sea Vegas. With each one prospering in their own ways, the group, will prosper in total.
    Some of these ideas may seem lofty, but with each step taken in small amounts, we will have those lofty goals. I ask for any who are willing to make those small steps with me, to join in on the project. I may not be aiming for those big fancy buildings like others, but I am aiming for a new future. I ask that you help me find that future, and help it to become a better one.”

    #23838
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    I agree.

    And such balance should not be only in governance, but in economy, society, environment and all other aspects of life in general.

    On a philosophical note, I always said that seasteading should actually start by identifying and creating the “system” first, and than building the real seastead. We are approaching seasteading in a “reverse” fashion, since we are rushing in to build a seastead first without even having a dialog how we are going to run it and how we will govern ourselves.

    More then likely we are setting us up for failure…

    If seasteading is a peaceful revolution (which I believe it is, and for a lack of a better word) we have to learn from history and realize that all revolutions (bad and good ones) have started with an ideology followed by implementation, not the other way around.

    #23835
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Well, it’s not that simple.

    What safety has to do with government interference?

    Should we think now that in a community that decides to govern itself with the least government presence (let’s assume a referendum based one) there will be no stop lights, traffic signs, seat belts, food and water inspections for contamination, etc, etc? Or on a seastead of such nature, out in the middle of the ocean, there will be no safety regulations of some sort?

    I don’t think so.

    #23833
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    That’s funny. Is UK that bad? :)

    #23828
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Zutai,

    Everything is possible, given the condition that my plan is compatible with yours so it could be merged into one.

    I don’t know where you are located, but please keep in mind that my project will be located around the City of Key West FL. But for now I can’t do much in regards to that because I am very busy finishing a work project here, and in September I’m going abroad for 1 month vacation.

    End of October is when I’ll be back and plan to move to Key West for good. So my guess is that sometime in November after I’ll get all settled in, we can talk business. But meanwhile, we can exchange notes and see if our projects are compatible.

    If you wish to do so, please send me a PM with your private email and we can take it from there.

    #23826
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Let me further comment on this seasteading void.

    While this might seem to be a negative thing, we have to keep in mind that the glass is also half full and realize that voids usually tend to get filled. Therefore, in order to do so, we first have to identify what we are going to fill this void with. And I personally think that the answer is right here and we are looking at it: there is no seastead and we have to float one up, it’s as simple as that.(well, metaphorically speaking,…)

    People do identify themselves getting involved in the whole seasteading abstract, but without the real “feel” of actually stepping on a seastead, the initial enthusiasm in further participating will go away almost immediately. It’s like telling a kid about chocolate and how good it is, but when asked if he can try some, the answer is “we have none and we won’t have any for a while” :(

    So, to me, the next step is to experiment with seasteading and getting other involved in doing so. And when I said “to float one up” I didn’t mean an huge, shining, expensive one. It can be anything: a 40′ x 20′ float, a houseboat, a pontoon, a pile up of empty plastic bottles with a deck on it, etc. What matters is that one can step on it and have an experience of it and that psychologically speaking YOU ARE OPEN FOR BUSINESS.

    Having done that and with that mentality in mind, next thing you know is that the guy with a small sailboat anchor next to you might want to dock on your “floating thing” because you can make ice and have a generator, and he’ll pay you a small fee for that. Now you’re making a profit. And can grow or fail from there.

    Otherwise, we can keep on talking about seasteading for another 6 years.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 1,164 total)