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  • #13782
    Avatar of Matt
    Matt
    Participant

    It’s not directly related but this just prompts the question of whether freshwater aquifers could be found beneath the seabed, although, if even possible, most likely within a continental shelf.

    #13777
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    Matt
    Participant

    Way to go Alan!

    Might be around here? http://www.theatlantic.com/life/archive/2011/05/7-wonders-of-antarctica-journey-to-the-worlds-remotest-places/239523/#slide7

    Alan wrote:

    Shoredweller wrote:

    Matt wrote:

    Also – I can’t recall what they did with the dome. There was talk about disassembling it, and then reassembling it for a Seabees museum in California, but I’m not sure what they finally decided. But it’s not at the Pole, that’s for sure.

    According to an article in a scientific magazine:

    “…the dome is being returned to southern California where it will be held in storage. The top sections of the dome have been specially preserved so that they can be re-assembled for a possible exhibit in a new U.S. Navy Seabees museum.”

    Great pictures of yours about the “raised footprints”!

    [/quote]

    Thanks for the information. Today’s a good day – I just got word from a friend for the first time in a long time now, and she is currently the station manager at South Pole.

    I’m glad you liked the raised footprint photos – The Atlantic put together a collection of recent photos a few months back, and I was surprised to find that they had included two of mine: nacreous clouds and raised footprints.

    [/quote]

    #13776
    Avatar of Matt
    Matt
    Participant

    As seen on drudge… and from http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20110609/sc_livescience/underwaterriversdiscoveredonoceanfloor

    ” An underwater “river” has been discovered snaking along the ocean bed off southwestern Australia.

    The undersea phenomenon — layers of dense water that creep along the ocean floor at a rate of about a half-mile (1 km) a day — was found to be some 65 feet (20 meters) thick and stretches for more than 60 miles (100 kilometers).

    Researchers say it’s the first time these rivers have been glimpsed in such warm waters.

    “These dense shelf water cascades are common in high-latitude regions as a result of ice formation, but this is the first time these processes have been discovered in sub-tropical regions, and to be present throughout the year,” said the University of Western Australia’s Chari Pattiaratchi in a statement.

    Water evaporation during the region’s summers, followed by cooling during the winters, fuels the formation of the rivers, Pattiaratchi said, leading to the gathering of high-density waters in the coastal shallows, which then flow offshore as slow-moving rivers.

    So-called underwater rivers have been discovered in different spots around the globe.

    In the Black Sea, researchers uncovered an underwater river, but one that cut deep into the seafloor, much as rivers on dry ground wind through a landscape.

    The Australian underwater river was uncovered by seafaring gliders, self-propelling robots equipped with sensors to detect water temperature, salinity, plankton productivity, turbidity and dissolved oxygen. They can operate nonstop in the water for up to eight months.

    The finding is published in the journal Geophysical Research Letters. ”

    What do you make of this?

    #13342
    Avatar of Matt
    Matt
    Participant

    I like very much how we can see a glimpse of what a furnished concrete submarine would possibly look like, in page one, which is over all for now the apex of this seven page thread. Maybe Shredder and others would like to contribute more variants of furnished submarines, which by the way:

    Wil: What are their inbuilt limitations? What/how big fits through their one access? What must be in-built? Answer: same as private jets and some yachts, so these are questions for all potential designers out there to solve and present graphically. I’ll try as well.

    If not floating concrete, or if not immediate, then I’d be happy to see (and maybe work on) more megalomaniac, unrepressed views of what could be, like in page one, and six.

    What I would refrain to do is extrapolate land-living to the oceans. That’s not the goal, if it were we’d be building in the deserts (standard practice) and keeping our money offshore (standard practice), but the goal of living out in the sea is a bit more complicated and innovative than the territorial and political incentives. As in space, we’ll be dealing with distorted gravity, amount of free space, and non traditional conditions. Resulting designs should be non traditional (even if coated in such as in that Monaco Catamaran)

    #12971
    Avatar of Matt
    Matt
    Participant

    Obviously the technical part is over (as complicated as it is). It’s been done during the invasion of Normandy. There’s got to be a thread about the floating docks they used and their remains,

    My top questions here are how to justify economically a marina offshore for not saying in the middle of nowhere. It’s not that people can’t gamble illegally inland, or circumvent the law in all twistable ways anyway.

    However, Wil’s description of a typical semisub yachtie anchoring on a desert island oblivious to the storms that make it uninhabited, convinces me that here (whether in the form of a floatin breakwater-marina or and concrete living bubbles, and maybe tensegrity structures for farmfishing and maybe for “decks” as well*) we have a vessel, an instrument of settlement of the near freedom: the uninhabited islands the Caribbean and later Pacific and Indic oceans.

    Why apply technically a principle and not apply it politically too? Incrementalism means that seasteads will begin as part, even as instruments of settlement, of already existing “land based” (but in fact probably insular) nations.

    Feedback?

    #12970
    Avatar of Matt
    Matt
    Participant

    I knew before opening the thread that you meant Saya de Mesh.

    I was for a time obsessed with the idea of trying again there, (first time for me), I was obsessed because I really love maps and I believe it’s the only non polar shallow that falls outside any EEZ. . Point is that the whole area is pretty cramped as it is, with several African Nations and France competing for the fishing grounds.

    A Seastead wishing to be fully independent will likely meet a Tongan response like with the Minerva Reefs.

    However if autonomous yet dependent Seasteads worked for an already sovereign country the situation would be mutually beneficial, specially if the seastead farms its own fish. The seastead would be a tax free area, autonomous in all respects, but flying the flag of a country that wishes to assert sovereignty over non clear shallows and reefs. It would be like the modern equivalent of a Bucaneer or Privateer in contrast to a Pirate and could be applied in several non too risky situations all over the Austronesian Civilization from Mauritius to again Fiji vs Tonga vs Minerva. It’s the same culture, and languge family, and the most traditionally seafearing one in the history of mankind. For instance I would not advocate this approach for the Spratley Islands.

    #12969
    Avatar of Matt
    Matt
    Participant

    Alan,

    Yes I too prefer a non black market, that is, as Popper said “an open society”. But just take the example of the implant potential loophole, if one is needed then the justice system is a scham so how would that speak of the whiteness of such market (not know if potential or actua as I understand those implants do exist but for other, stronger extreme painkiller, fruit of the seas)

    I insist people interested in the interaction of chemical compounds, law and free will take a look at Celia Green’s courageus intellectual rejection of institutionalized medicine.

    Live well!

    #12950
    Avatar of Matt
    Matt
    Participant

    I’ve read the (Wil’s) numbers over and over again, I’ve tried to understand the substead concept and must admit that it took me some months for it to “sink in”, but now I’m pretty confident it is marketable.

    Living in South America myself I can attest to the wave of expats that come to start a new life. 1 out of 100 of them are actual adventurers. I know for a fact I have a good chance to get financing for a completely (legally) safe turnkey operation. But even that is somewhat of a long shot, so:

    I believe some of us do have more than 60K in assets, and in many cases it’s truly a matter of how you want to spend your time/money, and risk-tolerance, than lack of actual capital.

    I estimate that if the shell infrastructure is of that price, then just to be sure I’ll say 120K will buy a fully furnished vessel/living space with super safe toillet valves.

    For how much could it be privately chartered? Or rather, how much would someone pay for acommodation that is way more private and and a lot closer to the reef?

    Cheap waterfront parcels in Ambergris Cay, Belize are about 60,000USD/ 450m2 but on the wrong (west) side of the island and in pre-development (no roads, jungle not cleared,). Point is that some non millionaires pay hundreds of thousends of dollars to be able to live, or spends some time close to the underwater gardens that are coral reefs.

    As a business model I’d propose a better version of this: overnight stays, literally a spit away (un par de brazadas hasta) from Australia’s magical coral reefs: http://www.reeftrip.com/day-cruises-details.aspx#magic

    The Western Caribbean is home to the second (or third if you count the Triangle) biggest reef system in the world and is only a short fly or sail away from North America, growing Latin America, and somewhat closer to Europe than Australia. There is a huge market if it begins as a hospitality option for snorkelers and divers.

    A 120K project could be divided in 10 or 6 or only 3 shares and I’d still be willing personally to invest in it (provided the myriad of details to be worked out ).

    Matt wrote:

    … I believe the theoretical part is basically solved. Time to make it happen? …. how many people interested in this would be able to contribute….

    I

    Looks that not many – we could not make it to 5000/month for a start up project – not even as a group with shared contributions – the last time the idea came up… so still waiting for a “commited individual with the necessary means and drive”…

    Maybe ocean is right that rafting up 5000 USD used houseboats in a “seasteading oriented” community is a way to get it done even more economic than “dedicated hull building”.

    Put me on the list for moving to such a community and introducing the substead way to move houseboat culture farer out into the ocean – if it should happen some day.

    Wil

    [/quote]

    #12945
    Avatar of Matt
    Matt
    Participant

    Seems part three is going to be a Musical; can’t wait to listen to Galt singing his speech probably in a rap style…. http://dailycaller.com/2011/03/03/thedc-exclusive-producer-of-atlas-shrugged-movie-says-part-three-of-trilogy-could-be-a-musical/

    Read the book fellows…. it wont be the same after you watch the movie.

    If it’s too long or dense, then read Ayn Rand’s previous and arguably better novels, We the Living and specially The Fountainhead.

    Both were turned into movies but everybody remembers the books.

    After reading the Fountainhead, Atlas’ lenght makes more sense.

    #12944
    Avatar of Matt
    Matt
    Participant

    Here some images of an advanced colony of semisubs, just some sketch I did a couple of months ago using an oil platform as reference.

    The pictures show both the individual seastead, or joined in a colony. Furthermore the periscope can be plain or ellaborate forming a parabolic-shaped, or simply terraced deck (water collection, sun, wind protection)

    After reading more thoroughly Wil’s points I realize some obvious mistakes in the above designs, and also deviced simpler solutions.

    I’m currently thinking of a substead but with some sort of retractable, hydraulic?, deck (or even lighter, a “delfinera”, a mesh that works like a tensile deck found in most yachts and ships in history) Save the scale, it would look just the same as the above pics.

    Let’s see where this goes.

    #12943
    Avatar of Matt
    Matt
    Participant

    double post

    #12906
    Avatar of Matt
    Matt
    Participant

    Why aren’t there more of these? Have any of you been to this hotel? Seems it’s been in operation for decades and could be much nicer.

    #12905
    Avatar of Matt
    Matt
    Participant

    Amen! Wil puts his ideas in such a well rounded way, I believe the theoretical part is basically solved. Time to make it happen?

    If infrastructure is around 60K, c’mon, how many people interested in this would be able to contribute for a first shared-time substead?

    If the market for these grows, in diverse sectors, (hospitality is my favorite and I believe obvious to begin), then the costs will begin to drop and it will only be a matter of time for a seastead. Avoiding the intertidal, or hackzone seems paramount. Thus the main technical challenge might be the safety of snorkels, or sails?

    #12904
    Avatar of Matt
    Matt
    Participant

    So glad to se all this illustrative material!!!!

    @Wil How can two (or more) Semi submersible living space bubbles be interconnected underwater?

    The answer for bigger living spaces is obviously bigger bubbles, but that means a higher initial cost. For expansion purposes, what would be a method to bind one concrete buble to a new one? A cylindrical concrete tunnel – like the illustration of a molecule – ?

    Can the subs resist demolishing part of its wall when this cylinder is conected? Is there a way to prepare the living spaces to have parts, sections, that wil come off in case of expansion? (Well, yes, it would be like incorporating an extra window that could transform into door)

    The idea is that the resulting connected subs can form one solid structure with aprox the same buoyancy.

    #12851
    Avatar of Matt
    Matt
    Participant

    The idea of a floating clinic that doesn’t have to deal with national healthcare regulations has been there for a while. I’ve met people on and offline that “have always had that idea”.

    Right now we have a “white” market for opiates, pain killers in general, paliative medicine, and end of life care that is absolutly disastrous and cruel. Having experienced the situation of both addicts and cancer patients about to die (through family and firends, luckily not me) in both the States and Argentina, I can attest that there is probably no existing nation where these regulations are not cruel and inhumane.

    We also have a black market where almost everything can be purchased, but of course the price and risk involved makes the ordeal just as cruel. Also, the black market not always provides the same in every country.

    Institutionalized medicine has made it that once inside a clinic not even rather wealthy people can obtain the necessary care and medicine for the end of life.

    In addition to white and black markets in (medically) developed countries, we have another kind of market, the corrupt bordering countries (Ex for most of you guys, Mexico and Canada), for me it’d be Brazil.

    A seastead, or a Clinic Cruiseship that offers this kind of care would have to offer a different alternative to: bribing the doctors, buying in the streets, going to Mexico, or mailing Canada.

    This involves the legal side: Is it part of the black market? If so, is it better than the normal black market because its remoteness and technological challenge would make the operators more efficient, clean and contract-driven than street dealers?

    If it’s part of the wite market, then we already would need a legal institution to make it so. Imho a legal structure that can enforce contracts and where corporations and persons can be registered is already more valuable and difficult to create than the clinic itself. So then we’d have a more difficult challenge which once solved, would allow for clinics, theme parks and financial havens to come naturally.

    If it’s a creative grey area (like flying a flag of convenience) it could work like the Dutch Abortion ship maybe in the following way:

    A note on opiates and medicine dispensing implants:

    A patient in need (or want) of chronic pain relief would have to either live on the seastead or smuggle the medicine each time. With a dispenser that is surgically inserted into the body, loads of, for istance, fentanyl could be charged and re-charged every year(s) and it would not be illegal for the patient to go back home with it because the regulated chemicals don’t leave the body of the patient. There’s a limit to Leviathan’s intrusiveness: As long as the surgery is done onboard, the government can’t pretend to have jurisdiction over the insides of the body of the citizen once it comes back home. That is what the abortion debate is all about but in this case it’s easier because an implant is not alive in any sense.

    For a more in-depth discussion of Institutionalized Medicine and its objectors please pay Celia Green a visit:

    http://www.celiagreen.com/Letters/doctorrequest.htm

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 50 total)