For a sea based system, it seems to me (in my rather limited experience) that OTEC would be a perfect system to provide power.
OTEC stands for Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion. The basic idea is that you use the temperature difference between warm surface water and cold deep water to power a heat engine to generate power. Because the temperature difference between these two heat reservoirs is small, the efficiency tends to be quite low. The technology required is not at all unlike the technology in your refrigerator. Furthermore, the lower temperatures make it easier to design than traditional heat engines that operate at much higher temperatures.
--Hermit
Raison d'etre
I would agree Hermit. Sea Solar Power is ready to build one. (www.seasolarpower.com). Now. You are correct that the efficiency is low, but I'd add that that is irrelevant. Combining it with wind, wave and current power is also feasable on a large platform. Essentially unlimited fresh water is a by product. H2 would be a primary product. JTEC is a new technology that could also be incorporated. Open ocean aquaculture and seafood processing are also compatible (using deep (cold) ocean water to aid flash freezing).
The seastead needs a raison d'etre to ever become reality. My entirely unsolicited opinion is that Seastead needs to focus on becoming a business with viable products. The USA, for instance is just not repressive enough to inspire competent people to choose anarchy over prosperity. Anarchy or freedom is a fine ancilliary goal, but without an economically based focus, it's just a hobby.
“Prosperity is only an instrument to be used, not a deity to be worshiped.”
OTEC
We talk about OTEC in the book, very briefly. OTEC is big and expensive, so it will be quite a while before it makes economic sense. As the communities get bigger, OTEC will become more and more attractive.
Solar assisted OTEC
Solar assisted OTEC-
Thought it up and googled it. The energy island guys aready though of it in a different form.
OTEC operates on a temperature differential of about 40 deg F between the cold deep water and warm surface water. Increasing the temperature difference increases the output or reduces the size/cost of the plant. Using a floating breakwater of the dissipation type (seawalls are impractical in the open ocean) as a solar preheater increases the effeciency of OTEC.
Wiki
Hi,
There is a page on the wiki http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/OTEC. OTEC keeps popping up in different threads and blogs, I'd suggest we collect everything on a single page instead of restarting the same discussion over and over again.
-Joep
OTEC is one of those
OTEC is one of those perennial favorites of ocean-based community projects, but it has huge problems that rarely recieve the attention they deserve.
1. It is very imature technology. Someone is going to need to drop a huge pile of loot into R&D to get to full scale, production ready hardware. (Think 100's of millions of dollars)
2. OTEC requires very warm surface water to be efficient, which limits seastead location. (equatorial ocean only)
3. OTEC requires very deep water to be efficient, which limits seastead location. (Usually WAY offshore)
4. Efficiency increases with size, so good OTECs are very large and don't scale down easily. You need a large seastead to make it worthwhile.
5. Fresh water is a byproduct of the more technically challenging open cycle design. The more near term closed cycle OTEC does not produce fresh water directly.
6. Very few sites are suitable for land-based OTECs, which means if you drop the $$$ to develop one, there is not much of an export market.
My opinion: for near term off the shelf power go with diesel fuel generators for baseload power supplemented by as much wind and solar as you are willing to waste your $$ on. (Diesel will always cost less than the renewables once you factor in $300/sq ft for top deck space and huge costs for battery storage) If you have megabucks and want to develop a new power souce from scratch, design a gas turbine based nuclear particle bed reactor. They work 24 hrs per day everywhere on earth, scale down well, and would be a hot export item.
always is a long time
>(Diesel will always cost less than the renewables once you factor in $300/sq ft for top deck space and huge costs for battery storage)
Always is a long time. You can mount the solar as a sun shade above your top deck so it does not really take up valuable space. And some designs like http://www.floatingislands.com/wavebreak/ are probably way under $300/sq-ft anyway. If you factor in a few other things solar is very interesting.
I think solar is already reasonable on islands and by the time we are really moving onto seasteads it will be the way to go.
Storing energy with gravity
Storing energy with gravity is going to be very wasteful since water has huge drag forces acting on the weight. The alternative to this form of storage is to build an airtight tube for the weight to move along but that will probably have big safety concerns. I'm not an expert. There's still the friction of the rope even if the tube is airtight. I have no idea how efficient gravity storage is.
Loss due to drag does need to be figured out
The pressure a mile down is huge. A pipe big enough to hold a significant weight and strong enough to hold back the water would be very very expensive. Then you can still have friction of the weight/rope against the inside of the pipe. Don't think that is practical at all.
But the weight on a rope idea may not be as bad as you think.
Make a long skinny weight by filling a metal pipe with lead. The weight is on the order of 10,000 lbs. The energy of dropping the weight 3 miles should last a family for more than 24 hours, so the speed is like 0.1 MPH. The shape of the weight slides through the water easy and the speed is very low. Power loss to drag like this goes up with the cube. For such low speeds it is not much. Out of the 10,000 lbs force, I think you are losing well under 1 lbs, or 1/10000th of your energy to drag. Look at me pulling this 32 foot long, 1 foot wide, and 3 inches thick, thing made of 8 sections through the water at like 2 MPH with my pinky finger and maybe 3 lbs of force:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JHWFS2fcX9E
Anyway, I think the drag loss from the weight should be acceptable.
The cable would have to be kept clean of sealife. Down in the deep ocean you don't have light so not so much grows. The shape of the cable should be low drag. Maybe a plastic coating on the outside. I think the drag on the long cable is more of an issue but probably ok.
But yes, the total efficiency of this needs to be evaluated. But any energy storage system will have some loss.
Mist Lift OTEC
OTEC is very practical and it can be done NOW!
A mist lift OTEC plant can be up and running in no less than 6 years. It does not need to be HUGE either (1 to 5 mega watt).
Yes the deep water pipe will be expensive but will within reason. And yes it would work best in the tropical waters.
A 5 megawatt plant could be built for $50,000,000.00 or less and yes it is marketable. Once one is built many nations will be knocking at your door for one or ten or hundreds. It is just a concrete vessel with simple design and once running if won't need hot or cold water pumps. It is capable of lifting water to the height of Nigeria Falls and dropped down into a conventional hydro generator. The Man who came up with this concept is still alive.
Anyone interested??
Actually, diesel generators
Difference in ship vs land
Diesel ? Have any of you ever lived on an island?
Anyone, thinking diesel is the way to make electricity need to have real experience with its cost and maintenance! To date on the island of Saipan which is part of the USA for those of you who don't know that is costing $0.38 kw/hr. It is breaking the economy there! Possible OTEC sites are many but no one seems to want to get off their butts and invest! They are waiting for big government to do it. Well, at that rate it will be another 30 years if at all.
Diesel, is only a temp. and as oil cost rise as they are now and will even more as China gets into importing more as it already has the price is going to be to high for island nations to afford it. Yes, even Hawaii!!
Diesel and electric rates in Anguilla
In Anguilla the electric company uses diesel and the cost of electricity here is $0.45 US per kwh. I aircondition a well insulated dome and my electric bill is about $2,000 US per month. I was very happy this week when I found out there are now airconditioners that are about twice as efficient as the one I am currently using (currently 5 tons at 10 SEER and going to 5 tons at 21 SEER - Carrier Infinity series).
In the US government subsidies covering about half the cost of solar power make it competative with $0.11 per Kwh electricity. But since our rates are about 4 times the US rates, we don't need any subsidy to make solar win out. So I fully expect to put in solar sometime in the next few years.
I think solar prices are going to drop enough over the next year or two that I am not in a big rush to buy stuff now.
Anyway, I think diesel is not going to be the way to go for seasteads. I think solar will be.
Whatever is most economical
We will use whatever is the most economical. Diesel is 24x7. Solar requires batteries and power conditioning to get to 24x7. I'd willing to pay a modest premium for solar over diesel if it means that we do not have to steadily import diesel fuel. I expect we will have a mix of power sources -- solar, wind, wave, and diesel. I am hoping that diesel is the backup power source, rather than the primary.
With regards to OTEC, $50M is way be beyond our budget at this point in time.
OTEC
Power and potable water from of-shore OTEC plants (as well as other product streams) could potentially be provided via a long-term utility purchase contract with private owner operators. The owner/operators themselves would provide the capital to build the plant (no cost to the utility users). The users would essentially sign a long term utilities purchase agreement from the owner operators of the plant. This type of arrangement is being considered for Naval Support Activity Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean. This type of acquisition strategy avoids the high capital costs of building a plant while simultaneously benefitting from utilities and energy rates that are more competitive than importing hydrocarbon fuels to generate electricity and produce freshwater. However, the utility users must be able to guarantee a long term utilities demand sufficient enough to make the return on invetsment favorable. Concurrent other Deep Ocean Water resource product streams may also make the return on ivestment even more attractive for owner/operators.
OTEC inefficient, impractical
OTEC is an interesting idea, but almost certainly impractical. The laws of thermodynamics say that efficiency of a heat engine is a fuction of temperature difference, and the temperature difference in OTEC is tiny compared to other heat engines. The wikipedia entry for heat engines puts the efficiency of OTEC at 3 percent which sounds reasonable given the relatively small temperature differences.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_engine
Solar, wind and wave energy are much more promising and likely more practical for a stead.
On the other hand, if someone can make an OTEC that successfully violates basic laws of thermodynamics, er, go for it!
Given that the heat of the upper ocean largely comes from insolation (i.e. sunlight), it would seem to make much more sense to convert the sunlight directly to electrical or thermal energy at up to 45% efficiency through photovoltaic cells or solar thermal heat engines, than to take the same energy through OTEC at 3% efficiency. In other words, OTEC starts with a roughtly 10x efficiency disadvantage compared to direct solar conversion.
Given that the heat of the
Given that the heat of the upper ocean largely comes from insolation (i.e. sunlight), it would seem to make much more sense to convert the sunlight directly to electrical or thermal energy at up to 45% efficiency through photovoltaic cells or solar thermal heat engines, than to take the same energy through OTEC at 3% efficiency.
Thermal efficiency
The thermal efficiency comparison among renewable energy resources is more of an academic comparison. Whether you are talking about 3% of an infinite resource that is free or 45% of an infinite resource that is free the product of either of those efficiencies is an infinite resource that is free. Thermal efficiency is much more relevant when you are comparing power cycles that exploit limited resources that have a real cost. What matters more in the renewable energy economic analysis revolves more around the life cycle and operating cost of the utility infrastructure and the sum total of revenue streams it can produce. A comprehensive engineering analysis that considers the locale and integrates the entire planned community’s business plan(s) is probably the best way to determine the right “portfolio” of utilities infrastructure.
OTEC economics not efficiency is the real problem
Since the fuel input is free (cold water), the efficiency alone is not what kills you. Efficiency is part of why the economics don't work out well though. You have a capital investment to set everything up. Then you have to use high grade energy to pump the cold water up and then get low efficiency on converting that to high grade energy. Given all the costs and how long things last, so far I think you are better off spending your money on solar. I suspect it will always be true, but the economics can change as technology changes.
Deep Ocean Water (DOW) resource
Actually, a complete engineering economic analysis, integrating all the product streams and overall business plans of the offshore community is necessary to find the optimal sustainable utility system(s) for an offshore community. –potentially a separate thread but relevant here too.
Product streams and markets are also a key consideration when considering the economics of OTEC plants in tropical locales. Assessing OTEC economics actually requires integrating plant design with the overall business plan of the community. The Deep Ocean Water (DOW) resource that serves as the heat sink for an OTEC power cycle simultaneously represents a number of potential products for local markets as well as export.
Though the choice of power cycle itself (open cycle vice closed cycle for example) could simultaneously produce freshwater from surface water for local consumption and/or export. The desalinization of pathogen free DOW is becoming a business. You may want to check out the Natural Energy Laboratory of Hawaii Authority (NELHA) website and read about the current deep seawater bottlers marketing this type of product. http://www.nelha.org/tenants/authorizedbottlers.html The effluent DOW from an OTEC power cycle is an ideal product stream for local offshore ventures doing mariculture work like these other NEHLA tenants: http://www.nelha.org/tenants/commercial.html
Displaced cooling load for Air Conditioning, cold agriculture, or other process applications is also a simultaneous byproduct of an OTEC power cycle like this application for Curacao http://www.otecnews.org/articles/curacao-swac.html
OTEC key to Kwaj deal with the US
-interesting article from www.marshalislandsjournal.com copied below.
The Marshall Islands government is making headway to get both landowner and US agreement for long-term use of Kwajalein — but Foreign Minister Tony deBrum said there is no question that to get a new land use agreement (LUA) signed by the landowners, the military use and operating rights agreements (MUORA) in the Compact will have to be changed.
DeBrum, in an exclusive interview with the Journal, said numerous proposals are being discussed by the landowners “to break the logjam,” though he acknowledged there is much to do before a new LUA is a possibility.The landowners are currently facing a December 18 deadline to sign a new LUA or risk losing $20 million in rental payments that have accumulated in an escrow account.
DeBrum said he is hopeful that the LUA issue can be resolved by then or in the alternative that if substantive progress toward a resolution is demonstrated the deadline can be removed by the US.
DeBrum, who is one of three senators representing Kwajalein Atoll, said that the “landowners are not attracted by the $20 million, they are insulted by it.
“Al Staymen (a key staff person with the US Senate Energy Committee) put (the December 18 deadline) in the original act (law) and he can remove it more simply than we can change the MOURA,” deBrum said. “We’ve been very forthcoming with the US about working to get agreement with the landowners.”
Kwajalein people are not against long-term use by the US, but they are not prepared to accept an agreement that perpetuates the current situation at Ebeye, deBrum said. DeBrum sees a proposal for inexpensive power as “an imaginative way to try to break the impasse (over the LUA).”
He is pushing a plan for an Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion (OTEC) power system for Ebeye and Kwajalein. “This would add a $200 million asset to the landowners' portfolio and provide virtually free power and water (for the atoll),” he said.
Lots of good info here
Everyone - please try to summarize your conclusions on the Wiki, so that you add to our body of knowledge.
http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/OTEC
I know this discussion is
I know this discussion is about energy, but even if OTEC is not efficient enough, it seems to me that the real advantage is the cold water from the deep. What if you scrap using the cold water for energy production and instead use it for energy usage reduction. For example, 40F is more than cold enough to supply your airconditioning needs, which is a huge energy hog. You could also use it to improve the efficiency of refridgerators and freezers. If you have a larger thermal source of energy, like a solar thermal plant, you could still use the cold water on the condensing side to improve efficiency. I also believe that this colder water could still be used in the production of freshwater via condensation, especially if combined with solar. Then there is the minerals in the deep water, which I understand may have good value in aquaculture/fish farming.
The question then is how much cold water do you need for these purposes and is it cost efficient to pump that quantity to the surface when you compare the energy used for pumping versus the energy savings potential.
As for the cost of the pipe, I would think it would be much lower due to the much smaller quantity of cold water needed for the above purposes versus OTEC.
What kind of pipe is needed? If you put the pump at the bottom, could you use a very thin walled plastic/fabric due to the positive pressure inside? That way you could easily pull it to the surface if the water is to shallow, etc.
I don't know if these ideas have merit, but I would think this is possible to research. If you are going to live on the ocean, you will have to use all of the resources available, and that 40F water seems to be a very valuable resource all by itself.
A/C
You're going to need heat more than cooling at most latitudes, most of the year. Ocean water is a much better conductor than air and cooler than is comfortable for humans over most of the world.
Sorry, I'm in the
Sorry, I'm in the Philippines, so my thinking is definately more equitorial! I know there are a lot of people here that want to be in the more northern latitiute, say SF bay area, but in my mind that is not practical for many reasons. Time will tell.
You may get what you want, but will you want what you get?