I was thinking about some ideas I could or should contribute and decided the best place for me to start was internet distribution. I am not well versed on internet providers which cater to ships or sea platforms so I'll be discussing after-the-fact options and ask anyone more familiar with these things to research our best options for oceanic isp's. The following is merely suggestions and brainstorming from myself and a few members of my local "brain trust" feel free to chip in with anything you want. I'll try my best to keep my thoughts on this organized.
I'll begin with two basic assumptions.1:Internet bandwidth will be shared(or sold) through one or more satellite connections as opposed to each individual having a satellite2:Internet traffic will be exchanged between spar platforms and/or wireless internet connection has been chosen to cat or fiber optic on a single spar
The first thing we'll want to consider is an 802.11b or 802.11g wifi connection. This is the most steady and available option for wireless internet connection at the moment(unless you count IPoAC, but the mess they make is horrendous). I'll examine two options, in particular. I'll note some of their more relevent perks and flaws and try, at least for now, to avoid getting into aspects of technical arcana related to each. We'll consider this first by looking at the pros and cons of an off the shelf home wireless router.
Using wifi to share bandwidth has several advantages:-reliable technology-readily available-low technical knowledge needed to initiate-high environmental tolerance(ie, weather conditions will not drastically effect it)
It also has a few disadvantages:-high power consumption-susceptible to "noise" interference(especially important if widespread use of wireless technologies is being used on the stead)-low range(I've gotten as much as 320 feet with the router outside on the top floor of my house, typically you can expect a little more than half that)
Range can be countered to a degree through repeaters and/or antenna improvements.(more on this later)
The next I want to consider is RONJA. RONJA is an optical communication framework. Essentially, it uses light to communicate from computer to computer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RONJA for those interested and/or unfamiliar.
It too has its advantages:-low power consumption-long range(myself and a partner in crime have achieved 1000 feet on a good day and I've heard of up to four times that)-low "noise" susceptibility-fast communication(at least until we sort out how to send those pigeons faster than the speed of light)-FSOC technologies have been used for decades(though not commonly so this may be considered a disadvantage)
And one glaring disadvantage:-if something gets in its way it loses connection(heavy rain, heavy fog, people, towers, alien warships, etc)
My suggestion:Use a combination of the two. As the proposed systems for water and power aboard the stead is already weather dependant, I see no reason the stead's internet should not be likewise. On days of fair weather using RONJA would save a good deal in terms of power and offer faster service to users. On days of lower quality weather(assuming the internet itself works, satellite internet can fall prey to the weather itself, though not as easilly as RONJA) switch to wlan using antenna(both for sending and receiving data) on days when the weather is not at an optimum. This should allow for the best resource management as well as highest quality service.
What next:Pending the responses I get from this thread the local brain trust and I are willing to crunch the numbers to give theoretical best range as well as design and run some experiments to give some more practical data. The experiments would basically amount to going out on the lake and testing range, power drain, and quality of a lan network using 802.11g wifi and RONJA at different ranges and under different weather conditions and likely trying a wifi repeater and a directional cantenna and yagi antenna. The experiments would be fairly cheap for anyone here interested to try out themselves and I would be willing to help anyone along with the electronics and software aspects.
So let me know what you lot think. I also want to add, for lack of a better place of putting it, that for computers on a seastead I most highly recommend using computers built with the mini itx form factor. They are more quiet, more energy effecient(much more), and smaller than your typical pc. Their cost is comparable to your larger pc and they will run whatever operating system you decide to install(windows, linux varieties, etc). Just a suggestion.
Platform would have to be
Platform would have to be reaaaaaaaally still for free space optics to work.
Typically, yes, but not
Typically, yes, but not always. Movement is, beyond a doubt, highly undesireable, but not necissarily severe enough to rule out the option. On a seastead your single greatest source of movement on the mounts will be the wind. One of the tests the group and I have discussed is to use an array for the lightsource to make small casual movements less of a problem. Drifting between steads will not be, in my mind, too difficult a problem to overcome. Ideas such as using a tracking grid in the mount to register light movement so the mount can follow it via servo have been discussed. Another option would be to use accelerometers to gauge movement and adjust the mounts correspondingly.
So I agree we should add movement to the flaws. But I do not think it will be a fatal flaw and is much easier to overcome than issues of weather condition.
It's low bandwidth but...
Internet over HF radio is feasible.
I worked with the Battle Force Email system a bit back when I was in the military.
satellite coverage in
satellite coverage in certain areas of the world can be quite expensive, it's not like Dish network back in the states. We pay tens of thousands of dollars per month for fractional T1 access at various sites in Iraq. The satellite footprint for internet just may not be there, depending on where you set up shop- the empty ocean has not been a huge target market for satellite content providers so far.
Suck to hear that, i though sattelite would be something we could count on.
What are the odds of setting up a wireless link with something we place 24nm away on land?
Well i guess if you stay within 24nm of a big city satellite would generally be available.
Satellite services on the
Satellite services on the ocean are likely(correct me if I am wrong) geared toward craft moving with some regularity. Would this mean those services tend to have a decent distribution of satellites to handle that movement and keep the ships in touch with the net with more regularity? If this is the case, the footprint may be larger than we suspect and would potentially provide a semi-mobile seastead with better quality internet than ships using the same service.
Since networking hardware
Since networking hardware has gotten so cheap, I think it'll end up being a kitchen sink approach.
Having everything from 802.11 to VSAT to HF equipment to fibre while be relatively cheap.
It's all really off the shelf except for HF.
This is the perfect topic for a Design Proposal (see wiki) and an eventual prototype. This could all be finished and demonstrated before TSI builds their first platform.
thebastidge: you sound like the most qualified to lead this?
http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Design_Proposals
I'll second that and if
I'll second that and if anyone decides to go ahead with it, I'd like to volunteer for the position of lesser flunky. I have degrees in computer engineering and computer science(human interfaces are my cup of tea) and a strong love of diy projects if anyone desires an l.f.
Heath, I noticed your PBX proposal and was curious as to whether you'd consider working with astfin or some designs of the free telephony project. I am only familiar with them in passing, but thought if mentioning it may help, I'd just go ahead and mention it.
Incidentally, is noon too early for beer?
i wasn't aware of the
i wasn't aware of the progress they've made on that...
I got a client that's always talking about blackfin
i'll have to try to con him into giving me one :)
it's 6:00 somewhere
"i wasn't aware of the
"i wasn't aware of the progress they've made on that...
I got a client that's always talking about blackfin
i'll have to try to con him into giving me one :)"
Con is such a strong word. Let us call it "persuade through discussion of questionable merit". Let me know how it goes ;)
"it's 6:00 somewhere"
Yup, and nothing gets a project kicked off like beer. I'll have to get some pics someday of the shack that beer built.
Heath, I can work on this.
Heath, I can work on this. Note: even the HF gear is pretty much off the shelf, and the software to run the BFEM style gateway is widely available as a free download. Encryption can done in a variety of ways or done away with completely, as all encryption entails overhead and it's on a fairly slow link anyway.
Marine Internet
I did some cursory research on marine internet a while back. It is very expensive. The problem is not the downlink. There are high power Ku band satellites, like the ones used for DirectPC, over much of the globe. Keeping the dish pointed at the satellite even on a moving ship is not technically difficult, and there are a number of vendors with off the shelf solutions. The problem is the UPLINK. Contrary to what many people think, the uplink data on satellite internet doesn't go through the satellite. It goes through some terrestial wireless network. In the case of marine internet it goes over a marine band radio data network. So you wind up with an assymetrical link with slow uploads and a very expensive price.
There currently isn't any better solution, so seasteaders who wish to live way out from shore outside of any nation's EEZ (200 nm or more) will have to either develop a new system or deal with the price and performance of existing systems. For anything less than a global community of seasteaders, satellites are not an option. They are simply too expensive. Your best bet is probably a com platform on a high altitude balloon with a dedicated high speed link to the mainland. Developing such a system may cost nearly as much as developing the seastead itself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_Internet_access#Two-way
An option for
An option for over-the-horizon communications is to bounce it off the troposphere. This is sort like two guys communicating by shining lights on clouds, but instead of lights on clouds it is microwaves on the troposphere. I imagine a link from Anguilla (where I live) out to a floating community in the Sargasso Sea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troposcatter
There are groups working on blimps and UAVs for communications relays. I think there will be off-the-shelf products in a few years.
SoundWireless
What about using the sea as a medium, for example using ultrasounds as a carrier ? Water is supposed to propagate sound waves very far, so it might be advantageous as a wireless transmission method.
Low freq radio is often used
Low freq radio is often used for submarine communication. It is VERY slow. Ultasound would probably be equally slow and wouldn't carry as well as radio.
In regards to the post about 2-way satellite, yes it exists but it isn't how the DirectPC system works, which is what is currently available for marine internet in the vicinity of the US. I believe 2-way satellite is also more expensive than the hybrid directPC system (which is already pricey) Any satellite-based system is going to have monthly bandwidth limits as well.
If anyone has some hard numbers on the 2-way systems, be sure to post them.
Right
Might be fun to go to the "basement" and shout to your neighbours 300 meters away, who could answer the same way. As an emergency communication method it might have some usefulness - the universal wirephone of the sea ;)
bidirectional satellite access
This french provider offers bidirectional satellite broadband for 20-40 EUR/month, which is a very decent price. There's a fixed fee of 400-500 EUR initially, though. Watch for more offers like these to open up around Europe, because of the recent launch of the W2A com satellite.
2-way satellite
We use VSATS. They are the ones I was talking about. Tens of thousands per month for fractional T1. One dish, transmit and receive to the satellite, not receive from satellite and transmit via phone or ground station. they are effective in places with no infrastructure, and not too terribly difficult to set up and maintain, but the bandwidth on the satellite is bloody expensive.
acoustic modems
Very short range and low bandwidth.
Linkquest
Ultrasound is nto feasible
Ultrasound is nto feasible for long distance data connections. The bandwidth is too low and there is too much noise to signal ratio.
satellite coverage of the Pacific
Parking more links here pending Wiki-entry
Note: TSI could easily become a shore station dedicated to Seasteaders, and as noted by some of the existing commercial providers, this could be spun off into a for-profit business at some point.
Cool. It looks like
Cool. It looks like there's some kind of Sat coverage almost everywhere.
On another note: is AX.25 as easy as it seems?
Heres what I did...
1. I apt-got the relevent packages
2. ran `soundmodemconfig`
3. set both modulation both ways to psk (i have no idea if this is ideal, it just looks familiar from my reading)
4. flipped through the possible sound card settings until the scope started wigging out
5. Entered bogus callsign
6. ran `soundmodem`
...and I get this...
sm0 Link encap:AMPR AX.25 HWaddr QWERT inet addr:10.0.0.1 Bcast:10.0.0.255 Mask:255.255.255.0 UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:256 Metric:1 RX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:10 RX bytes:0 (0.0 b) TX bytes:0 (0.0 b)
All it's hooked up is my headset, so there's no meaningful signal going into it.
It's pretty easy. It's just
It's pretty easy. It's just got limited usefulness, with the low speed/bandwidth. But "useful" depends on where you're standing. When a lion is standing in front of you, a rock is better than a bare hand, and a gun is better than a rock. It's all relative. Want email someplace where better solutions are not available? I'll take the slow route over nothing.
It just dawned on me that
It just dawned on me that even when satellite is running full boar, routing DNS thru AX.25 will make the satellite latency a lot more tolerable.
imagine being on sat and the dns requests are cascading so to speak... dns request, page loads necessitating another dns request and so on
Of course there are a lot more tricks that can be employed...
Squid
RSS - so browsing for news and whatnot can at least seem instant
Cache of Wikipedia.. it's only like 7 gigs or something. bummer that they don't let you get the images anymore though
precrunching jpegs like the so called accelerators do
http://www.linkscape.net/
http://www.linkscape.net/ looks promising. they can add customized satellite coverage areas to those shown in the map (phased array satellites?). they also offer voice and fax as well as internet.
You would definitely want a
You would definitely want a caching proxy server, no matter what. HF is not a great format for web browsing. I can be done if the site you're browsing doesn't use file that are so big they time out downloading. But it's primarily a text-based system. It's excellent for data like weather, text-email, GPS, etc. Theoretically, yes, you can run different services through different gateways- DNS requests over HF AX.25, or even HTTP requests which then download from Satellite. The implementation is a little tricker. You're not going to beat satellite latency that way though.
Cell phone tech
I'd go for mobile cellphone technology instead of HF. It's mature and has decent bandwidth, and is especially easy to set up in a flat and open environment such as the ocean (no more expensive refraction / reflection study for placing the stations and setting up their respective power). Of particular interest is the radio uplink technology used for connecting the cell stations, they have huge bandwidth and, too, are very easy to set up when the view is devoid of obstacles. However they would require tracking equipment in order to compensate for movement.
On a boat on the ocean, the
On a boat on the ocean, the horizon is about 5km away. Cell phones transmit and receive about up to about 40 km. Cell phones are not a long distance technology. Most cell sites are connected via landlines, that's where their bandwidth comes from.
However, it is a mature technology that would work in a multiple-seastead environment. It's quite a bit moe expensive than plain old radios though.
Microwave/radio relays
I was thinking more of the radio beam links that connect cell stations wirelessly, where landlines are impractical: they provide speeds up to 155 Mbps over kilometers. I'm not sure whether tropospheric scatter can be used with them, apparently the french army uses (or used, it's 70s tech) one such system (Ariane Tropo) so it should be possible, it allows extending the range to 400 km with a 1 KW emitter - but then, it most likely does not use microwaves, since these are absorbed too steeply by the atmosphere. The advantage of the ocean is that there's no obstacle (Fresnel ellipsoid is always empty) and the radiospecter is unencumbered for the most part. The disadvantage is humidity, which absorbs some frequencies.
It requires a receiving pair of antennas being deployed on land and interconnected, though. For early seasteads sat access will be preferred.
Microwaves are line of
Microwaves are line of sight. Your horizon on the ocean is very close. You would need a very high mast to transmit microwave very far- that's why military units site their microwave transceivers high on mountain tops when they can.
Hang gyro-stabilized
Balloons are really not a
Balloons are really not a bad idea for some applications. Omnidirectional transmitters, radio repeaters, weather gear, etc. Weather gear is esigned to be recovered, but chaep enough to expend. I don't think a balloon would work well for directional stuff like microwave... The cell "tower" idea might work, but that gear is very expensive and you really wouldn't want it crashing into the ocean.
How about a repeater system?
The seastead will be quite tall. A gyro-stabilized moored repeater spar bouy might be practical. You'd probably only have to connect to the nearest wind farm with a shore cable. None of these solutions sound like a fast and wide enough connection to satisfy anyone on this forum. Perhaps an interim plan that uses a subsea FO connection?
Most applications don't need
Most applications don't need gyro-stabilization. Most short range comms are omnidirectional, most long range comms spread out to a wide footprint by the time they get out there a bit. Mostly it depends on how far away from landlines you are. The further you are, the less options and slower they will be. Even satellite has a LONG lag built in by physics that you will not overcome anytime soon. And if you have a means of circumventing the speed of light, then you shouldn't be wasting your time talking about seasteads.
How can I get a real AX.25
How can I get a real AX.25 connection going?
I was thinking that I could just feed sound from one box into the other. I have a two identical servers I could wire up. Will this make my soundcards asplode?
Or, can I just (cough) point the Speaker A at Mic B and Mic A at Speaker B?
Google didn't give any hints.
If it works, I'm gonna move on to bonding via `ifenslave`, it looks really easy.
Here's the example from the manpage...
Edit: and I don't think bonding has much ,if any, overhead. It just does round robin on the interfaces, therefore I think it will work with AX.25.
Real connections
Look for surplus HF modems. Check DRMS and HAM radio sites. You don't need the radio to test it, the modems can be connected with hand-built cross-over cables. Eventually, to be useful, you need at least a pair of radios, or one radion and a buddy with all the gear. You'll also need to get HAM radio license, which I understand is much easier since they removed the Morse code requirement.
What about using a
What about using a combination of GPS linked in with the locations of friendly seasteads (or even boats) and radio transmittion (or even the optic option discussed earlier). The satellite would configure the shortest, most energy effective route between friendlies to the desired end receiver, and the message would be sent through this series of seasteads to the end location. It would be less energy intensive and cheaper than sending from point A to point B I would think. A big downside would be the perceived loss of autonomy and independance but sacrifices are going to have to be made sometimes.
I hope that made sense.
That's basically what
That's basically what 802.11s is.
The reference implementation is finally going somewhere.
When it starts to mature, it won't hurt one bit to add it to everything else!
I'm not sure what you're
I'm not sure what you're getting at. You're not getting processing power on a satellite, you're getting a channel. Those channels are expensive. If you're using a tiny bit of the channel (a download in the midst of a stream of downloads) it's not so bad, this is how dish network and diret PC work. There are FAR fewer upload channels whoever, and using them is very expensive if they are dedicated to you. By using a landline to make your web requests (small amount of info) and the satellite to deliver content (large amount of info) it is using the satellite's bandwidth very effectivily. Anything that doesn't need to go through a satellite should not.
Heath, caching sites such as
Heath, caching sites such as wikipedia is probably not the best way to go. Its simply too unlikely most of it will ever be used. Though caching its top few thousand pages may be a fair idea. Bastidge is right on using a caching proxy. My own suggestion on such a proxy would be to extend the cached websites TTL and also let the servers query cached sites for updates during hours that average the lowest bandwidth usage. This way the most commonly accessed sites are kept nice and up to date, DNS poisoning is less likely to happen(I'm paranoid, sue me :P ), and the updates will have the lowest perceivable impact on the network.
It may also be worth using(as an auxillary not replacement) a large lan or even man network(depending on community size) to create an "internet" by and for that community to host information relevant to the community. A plus is that it'd work faster, a downside is it would be limited in access. So I think a combination of the two would be useful. But that's just me.
This sure is interesting...
This sure is interesting... FX.25
http://www.stensat.org/Docs/FX-25_01_06.pdf
It's an extension to AX.25 adding forward error correction at layer 1
Edit: More...
http://www.stensat.org/projects/FX-25/FX-25_performance.htm
15% of the AX.25 packets [9/61] were decodable without the FEC capability 46% of the AX.25 packets [(9+19)/61] were decodable with the FEC capability
Given that they were
Given that they were deliberately using a low-quality signal, that is a hell of an imrpovement(many thanks for the link). I think 62-67% should be our goal for absolute worst(oh in a perfect world) but 46% is not horrible by any means. Many many thanks for the links.
Bastidge, in your opinion would using the AX.25 of FX.25 for something such as gopher and/or usenet be an avenue worth pursuing? It would help save precious bandwidth over other connections while allowing for steady sources of news and communication between spars(in addition to its already mentioned qualities such as weather and gps)
I would think RSS perhaps.
I would think RSS perhaps. Gopher and Usenet seem to have been passed by, largely. Some things on a seastead are likely to seem like a step backward for a while tho, so maybe it would be worthwhile. I'd say that it depends a lot on the usage characteristics of that SS owners. This is definitely not a technology for large downloads. The smaller the discrete chunks of data, the better.
Agreed on many things
Agreed on many things seeming like a step backwards. The reason I brought it up is that to my thinking(at least during this small arbitrary chunk of time) it could be used to fill several needs. Primarily dissemination of data(though i have to concede rss is a better means for that) and mass communication(though perhaps something akin to a bbs would work better than usenet). It would use a more stable technology and also give some motivation for bettering internet connections for seabased use.
Another thought brought on by the mention of gps is to include it as a general navigation tool for SS's in general. It would allow SS to be able to network coordinates with other SS allowing groups to keep a good bit of space between one another, if they so desire. Just random tickings of the clockwork in my head at the moment. Maybe with some sleep it'll develop into a cohesive thought.
ok, that's clever as hell
ok, that's clever as hell how they did that.
it's a ax.25 postprocessor on both ends. the receiving ax.25 algorithm doesn't get confused by the fx.25 frame
this means it should be really easy to hack
I've made some progress on
I've made some progress on this.
http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Heath/FX.25
Good job! Whenever I
Good job! Whenever I manage to get home again, I'll sneak a peak at the code and see if there is anything I can think of to do to it. I'm with you in being a bit distressed about the long. Maybe it'll be something as easy as a fudged long long, but life never is easy.
Should we work on a list of potential uses it'd have aboard a seastead?
i'm not even gonna say it :)
i'm not even gonna say it :)
I'm guessing I missed
I'm guessing I missed something obvious, if so my appologies. Too much to do this morning to give things the attention I ought to. Feel free to pummel me with a trout. ;)