Here are our current ideas for workshop topics at the conference. Please use this thread to suggest others, discuss these, and help us prioritize.
- Business plan for seastead resort
- Marketing/PR: how to make our ideas sticky
- Transitions: How to provide an incremental path for people to transition from land to seastead life?
- Ephemerisle: Make it happen in 2009!
- Seastead design: What will the structure be and how does that impact other issues?
- Location: Where should the first seastead be located (or what's its migration path)?
- Transportation: How to get to/from (helicopters are slow, but planes are hard to land. boats are slow. What are our best options?)
- Government/Organization: What are good forms of seastead government for individual seasteads? How to organize multiple seasteads?
- International relations: trade, defense, international acceptation of seastead (and its currency and documents.
It seems like a complete
It seems like a complete list to me.
Personally, i feel Government/Organization is the most pivotal topic, everything else is a means to an end. Id be very interested to see what people have to say about this, and how much common ground there is.
Further, i feel that design/engineering is an important topic, in the sense that this is where a lot of work still lies ahead, but that may just be my own bias talking.
I have to disagree. The
I have to disagree. The design/engineering is the main thing. The politics and rules (as well as most of the other issues metioned by Patri) will be worked out automatically by individual seastead operators once TSI has developed the knowhow on building something that physically floats and works.
Well, we agree that the
Well, we agree that the engineering is the most pressing issue, and i agree, once that is solved, the rest will follow.
But still, its a means to an end. The goal is political change. And i feel it will make for more interesting discussion: everybody can contribute, and im very interested in what everybody thinks.
In my experience, political
In my experience, political discussions are rarely productive. If you are discussing with opponents they never see the light, and if you discuss with people of similar convictions, what´s the point?
Politics that have direct bearing on engineering decisions (such as where to build the first seastead, or patents...) needs to be dealt with though.
Well, I expect 'similar'
Well, I expect 'similar' convictions, but still plenty of room for discussion. Even if the outcome is that we were in perfect agreement all along, id consider that very valuable information. But i doubt that. From experience, id expect most people to approach matters in a 'normative' fashion. Maybe i can get them to see the merits of the 'positive' angle, who knows. Either way, id like to get a better feel for what kind of people are attracted to this project.
Personally I don´t care
Personally I don´t care that much about peoples motivations. I expect people will use seasteads for alls sorts of reasons, good and bad. Thought the net result will in the end be the general advancement of human civilization.
Discussion of secret engineering not so interesting
Since most of the TSI engineering is being done in secret, it is not making for interesting discussion. I kind of worry that the most pressing and important problem is being worked on in secret. Does not use the abilities of this collection of interested people well. I think this reduces the chances of TSI making it. But the forums and wiki are still good for the rest of us to work together. :-)
I think patents are a non-issue for international vessels and the downside of secrecy is much worse than any potential upside of patents.
http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Patents
I agree. This is a problem.
I agree. This is a problem. Someone please remind me why TSI needs patents again. From reading this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_to_file_and_first_to_invent , the US has a "first to invent" system which in my mind should make things unpatentable if the first inventor (TSI) releases them into the public domain.
The idea is to have
The idea is to have bargaining chips if there is some offshore patent that wed like to use.
Im not sure if its worth aiming for either, id be inclined to think it takes more resources than TSI got to play that game effectively.
Bargaining chips, right...
Bargaining chips, right... Ok, I see the point, but I also hardly think it will be worthwhile.
Is a non-profit organization even allowed to do this? I mean the whole point of a patent is to enable the inventor to profit, right?
Well, i suppose you can have
Well, i suppose you can have revenue generating activities as a non profit, as long as there is no profit at the bottomline.
No profit at the end of the year.
Yes. Non-profits can sell goods and services, just so long as they have no profit.
My father worked for the Graphics Arts Technical Foundation (a non-profit in the printing industry) for years in the technical services (i.e. consulting) department. The technical services department generated lots of "profit" that was spent by the rest of the organization.
Non Profits & Patents
Yes. In the US, non-profits can have patents. In the US, non-profits are basically required to license them out using RAND (Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory) policies.
In terms of using people's
In terms of using people's abilities, we feel that the engineering is best done by professional naval architects with experience in designing offshore platforms. So I don't know that there is a lot the community can add to structure design.
Wayne & I have deeply ambivalent feelings about patents. Generally, we don't like them, but Wayne thinks it is important to have them for defensive purposes. But you may be right about international vessels, we will have to look into it.
I assure you that Wayne & I find limitations on what we can talk about to be very annoying, and not how we'd prefer the organization to operate!
Patents
I am the person who is being a stick in the mud about patents. I was in a patent fight when I was at Sun Microsystems and it was pretty unpleasant. The whole fight would have been avoided if we had simply sat down and applied for the patent when I told management that we should.
Given how long many of us have dreamed of real viable seasteads, the additional delay of waiting for the provisional patent application to be filed does not seem that extreme to me. It will add a one or two month delay before we can start showing some pictures of what our Marine folks have come up with.
Anyhow, don't beat up Patri on this issue. I'm the one to beat up!
If patent delay is really only a month or two
If patent delay is really only a month or two then it is not a big deal. I have never heard of things moving with that speed but I have very limited exposure.
Patents
There are also potentially large downside scenarios with patents.
I have personally been in situations where people who claimed that the only purpose for a patent was defensive were later turned to the dark side by people telling them that its all just part of how the game is played. You never know who might be running The Seasteading Institute 10 years from now.
Additionally, when you patent something, you are giving the government a license to exercise control over a technology - it is now considered property - property that can be lost or stolen. If the Seasteading institute is ever successfully sued, or goes bankrupt, control of your technologies can be lost to others. If the government decides that what you are doing is dangerous, it might even try to make a case for a seizure of your intellectual property under eminent domain, and if you are not charging what the market will bear that just makes it easier for them to claim that someone else can put this property to better use for generating tax dollars.
Of course all of these problems can probably be avoided after you get your patents by issuing some sort of universal unrevokable license to all parties to use your technology freely. If your intention is purely defensive against other patent claims, there is no reason not to do this immediately upon being awarded any particular patent.
-- Sean Hastings
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
There's no such thing as a
There's no such thing as a defensive patent, a patent is always an agression.
Let's say I break up into everyone's home at night, and attach a very light but deadly remote controlled explosive charge at the base of their head, a charge they cannot remove. In the morning, I then proceed to tell everyone : don't you worry, I didn't do anything wrong, these charges are purely for defensive purpose, I'll only detonate it if you try to agress me.
Besides, even if TSI claims the patent is defensive, businesses will be more reluctant to develop the technology since it risks being sued. Also, as was said previously, a patent may be seized by creditors or wors the government. And who knows, maybe an offshore drilling company will approach the TSI in a few years with a couple of millions in order to license a technology. Will the TSI management be strong enough to turn down the money ? Why risk the temptation ?
Priorities
1. Overall vision and mission are important - perhaps a keynote address discussing DG and political considerations, and how seasteads fit into the overall vision. Other political discussions should be handled offline as pre-arranged or impromptu gatherings outside the structure of the conference.
2. I like the workshop topics mentioned, and would allow people to pick/choose among, say, 2 or 3 going on at the same time, while still allowing time for the presenters to attend other workshops of interest.
3. Priorities need to be 1) how do we get started, and 2) how do we get others involved (including, e.g. engineers, builders, investors, financiers, etc.). I concur that design/engineering is a critical part of this, but I think also that Vince has the right idea w/ experimenting and trying to find a practical way to start having others pay for this, so I think discussion of business ideas of how to use the seasteads once built should figure highly as a topic of interest. Sorry, Patri, but I see Ephemerisle, transportation, and government/international relations issues as taking a back seat to the rest. Not that they couldn't be workshops, but I see the goal of getting a working seastead built and making money as the most important thing right now in an incremental approach. PR/Marketing will be important in all of this, as well, but perhaps will be worked out w/ a good business plan. I think the other topics will be more relevant in future years.
4. I would also suggest a workshop topic on experimentation (perhaps led by Vince) and how to diffuse it to more of the membership. Specific topics (or this might be better for a wiki) could deal with properties of different materials, what to avoid and why, etc. I think we already have an excellent discussion on this underway, but perhaps synthesize it? Also, how about some hands-on experimentation in the bay there? Granted, we wouldn't want to get in the water in October, but maybe someone could bring/rent a canoe/kayak to facilitate taking out into the bay.
That's it for now. dArt
Great ideas! You make
Great ideas! You make good points in #3, I'll have to ponder it.
Technical and funding issues are key at this point
Questions about governments, relationships with existing states, etc., likely should take a back seat to technical and funding issues at this point, except to raise some awareness of general background issues. Declaring statehood is impractical until defense against existing states is possible, so it's not really available in the immediate future. Given that, the platform will need to follow the laws of its flagging nation, though in practical terms that's also not much of an issue. Liberia or Panama probably don't do much law enforcement on their flagged ships at sea, and platforms IIRC are treated like ships under the laws of the sea. Expect to be boarded by coast guards, navies, etc., for inspections, like any ship at sea. In principle those folks will expect general international norms to be followed (no slavery, no drug smuggling, etc.). In practice the people with guns and missiles make the rules, so how it will actually play out is unknown.
Getting a seastead funded and built is the first task. Coming up with viable business models is closely intertwined. Political innovation will need to come much later. Therefore technical and funding issues are the first order of business.
At this early stage, treat things like a business venture, focussing on: location, marketing, funding, transportation, business models, etc. Assume it will need to start in someone else's territorial waters, generally follow their rules, etc. Unfortunately that may limit some of the initial businesses, but in the long term that may be less of an issue.
On ther other hand, general and early agreement about relational norms may prevent future problems. For example, I would personally favor mutual agreements between steads to trade peacefully and not harm (initiate force) or otherwise interfere with each other. Beyond that, the internal organization of each stead could be independently arrived at. A basic agreement along those lines may be all that's necessary to create peaceful coexistence between steads. Basically it's trade, live and let live on a stead scale. In a sense that's minimally political. Perhaps agreement on some very basic organizational concepts may be possible and desirable up front. On the other hand, that's generally how private ships relate with each other so maybe it's a not much of an issue?
I'm interested in trying to predict and prevent some of the possible failure modes, organizational, technical, financial, personal, etc. Perhaps the greatest unknown beyond funding is how existing states would treat a stead, even fully within its own waters and generally conforming with its rules.
I agree with your arguments
I agree with your arguments about priorities, yet still im not sure thats what the conference should focus on.
I suppose it depends on how you view the conference in the first place: id say its in large part a teambuilding event, and not so much about the specific topics themselves: even if it doesnt generate any concrete output in the form of new ideas, it would be a huge succes to me if i just got to see the faces behind the screen names, so that seasteading becomes something more tangible than just letters on a screen, or ideas in my head.
I'd enjoy meeting more of
I'd enjoy meeting more of the people interested in seasteading also, but I hope we also start talking about some of the key practical issues.
Volunteer opportunities
I think we should have a session about what areas we need volunteers to take on and manage projects.
Anyone else interested in lessons from land-based communities?
I'm on the board of Fellowship for Intentional Community (FIC), which publishes Communities magazine and a directory online and in print. I've visited 80 different cohousing neighborhoods, lived in two, and helped co-create one, and I'm advising on some others. These are all, on one level or another, aspiring EcoVillages, in the process of living more lightly on the land through cooperation and mutual support in their shared visions.
While Seasteading of course has its own unique challenges, I do believe that the movement can learn a lot from the experiences of people banding together with a common vision, bringing in resources to support not just the physical infrastructure (greening your "stick and bricks" will only go so far), but the social structure, decision-making tools, facilitation/group process, conflict resolution, and the like.
If others are interested, I'd be delighted to be able to participate in a session that both looks at some case studies and some of the ways that communities have dealt with resource sharing, and how the physical layout and ownership structure affects the social relations. We could brainstorm ways in which things would be different in a seasteading context, and prioritize research on addressing the key concerns before they become entrenched problems.
I very much agree that
I very much agree that seasteading should draw lessons from land-based communities. I think that this is not a key enough topic to address at the conference. But I think it would be a great talk for a future social, which we have about once a month.
Yeah thats certainly
Yeah thats certainly interesting. Will you be attending the conference?