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Your Ideal SeaStead Community

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This topic contains 54 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of billswift billswift 4 years, 8 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 55 total)
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  • #8203
    Avatar of SailorTrash
    SailorTrash
    Participant

    Shouri wrote:

    Oh btw i wonder which society is that your trying to leave behind, if there is such a well administrated one, i would like to go there by all means ;P

    And is this the things to do for fun for everyone in this world: Drinking, Smoking, Overeating? There arent any limitations to individuals rights as long as he doesnt damage his own body or the society.

    Heh. Well, I certainly wouldn’t call it well-administrated by any stretch of the imagination, but of course I’m talking about the U.S. The Health Police are tightening their grip on liberty every day. Eventually their will be a government-mandated national diet menu, I have little doubt. And tobacco will go underground just like booze in the 20s. Big Brother and Big Nanny have it going on.

    And yes, I get to define what is fun for me, not society. I don’t need or want a government approved list of Fun/Not-Fun activities. I smoke because I enjoy the nicotine rush, and because I’d rather die of lung cancer than of Alzheimer’s Disease. My grandfather smoked from WW2 to his deathbed, and still lived to be 90. He died of Alzheimer’s and it was terrifying to watch. But I will always remember his last coherent words: I own myself. He taught me Libertarianism my whole life, and he sealed the education in that moment.

    As for drinking, absolutely I drink. It’s relaxing and fun. And tasty and delicious.

    I don’t actually over-eat; I was just tweaking you. My genuine apologies for that, it was rude and I don’t like being rude. At 5’9″ I weight about 155-160 pounds and am in pretty decent shape. Living on a boat keeps you working constantly, and it’s like constant low-impact Pilates whenever the boat is moving…which is most of the time.

    Are these activities “bad” for society as whole? Maybe, but for me individual liberty is more important than the needs of society. Are they bad for me? Absolutely! But it’s my body, not society’s. If society wants my body they can rent some of its services at negotiable rates, but I’m not selling it. I own the lease on my body. My body is just a thing that I reside in for now, and a man who owns a thing has the right to destroy it if he wishes.

    I choose to take society’s needs into account with my vices, but that’s because I was raised to use common courtesy and common sense. I stand downwind of nonsmokers, I don’t smoke in a nonsmoker’s home, and I collect the butts for proper disposal. That’s all common courtesy; doesn’t need to be mandated. When I drink, I never ever drive. Or attempt complex acrobatics. That’s just common sense, doesn’t need to be mandated.

    So, my bottom line is this: My rights are more important than society’s rights. I’m a sentient human being, not a termite.

    http://seagypsies-mikeandkatie.blogspot.com/

    Taking our cue from the Eskimos, we boat people have over 30 words for “leak.”

    #8206
    Avatar of jtg423
    jtg423
    Participant

    Greetings

    I respect everyone’s right to build the society that they believe is the best for them. Further more, I respect the time you took to define your utopian society and your positive moral.

    Now I will take a shot in the dark here, but I hope you realize that a “Utopia” for all will never happen because so many of us have different ideas of what that would entail… The thing that I keep in my mind is that with the internet, and forums like this, we can potentially each find a “perfect match” of like minded individuals to share our dreams and goals with, and hopfully find some way(s) to work toward them.

    A forum that helps to identify these people is not a bad idea but also keep in mind the basic form that you filled out when you signed up with TSI. The combination of the information found, from all the members here, represents a particular type of data set that could be used to develop these collections of “like-minded individuals.” My suggestion to you is to take a look at starting a forum for people interested in one particular set of societal goals/guidelines/laws. Keep the opening as general as possible to interest as many as possible and then start individual threads on specific ideas.

    Thank you

    PS (just my opinion) I would suggest re-thinking your overly regulated society. The repression this causes, especially in very small social settings, cause things like mutiny. A community, working together, should have a basic idea for what they will accept, should outline such agreements, but be willingly to fully investigate any infraction before making a fair decision. Such democratic systems work very well in small communities… as does “taxation”, barter systems, and communal work.

    #8220
    Avatar of Shouri
    Shouri
    Participant

    Why is everyone thinking there is no money i wonder, i’ll give a simple example to make it a bit more clear.

    e.g. (numbers are there just to make it easier for understanding) There are total of 60 workers in aeroponic and seaculture facilities in X Seastead Community of the Orb Union. Each worker citizens hold 1% percent of the companies shares, while governments related body(Ministry of Aeroponics and Seaculture) hold the remaining 40%. Each worker works 6 hours a day and and is funded with 1% of total profit gained from Aeroponic and Seaculture activities, if he worked for extra hours (maximum of 4 more hours) ministry will pay the worker from its own share. Minister is also gets the same funding with other workers. So what happens to remaining 40% if no one works for extra hours?… Maintainance, ARGE, Paperwork related to imports/exports, Transportation costs, bills etc and if there is still funding left, it goes to community pool and is used for the development of the seasteads and the community, if there is no need for such development, remaining funds are divided equally amongst releated companies’ workers(note that ministries are compnies). So what is our currency how can we use our funds? Every companies’ treasure is directed to Ministry of Economics. Citizens of the community use a cyber currency in local shops. Workers here(Ministy of Economics) are responsible for using the funds they receive in foreign stock exchanges, foreign currencies, and investments with no hi-profit but safe-profit to further increase the numbers in communities treasure. When a citizen wants to leave the community permanently, total credits he used are deducted from his foundings and the remaining lot is given to him/her in whatever form of curency he/she wants. Also when a citizen plans to live in a foreign country temporary for vacation or other reasons he can draw any foreign currency from ministry of economics equal to his ( ‘current total fundings’ – ‘total used credits’ ).

    There are tons of people in India, Africa, China and Middle East who are prisoners of poverty they would gladly join a community where they can prosper also there are millions of people in the world with similar idealogical approach with me.

    If there is something you need more detail on please ask? The system i am trying to explain isn’t some slave using tyranny please try to read with more optimism, still thanks alot for your critics, please give advice on anything you can adn contunie with your critics :)…

    #8221
    Avatar of Shouri
    Shouri
    Participant

    Jtg thanks for your suggestions, to be honest i started this thread so that i can hear people’s ideal societies in detail and use that data to further increase my idealogies effectiveness. But i get only criticism in turn and found myself defending my ideas instead of collecting data, no one is talking about what they want in detail, don’t get me wrong though i’m thankful for critics.

    #8222
    Avatar of Shouri
    Shouri
    Participant

    Michael, i understand your way of living and i respect it, i do believe you are right in what you think too(i was a heavy smoker and drinker until i was hospitalised and it was quite a painful experience, after that i stopped smoking and drinking) i don’t have right to limit anyones freedom but everyone should have the freedom to live in a society they would like, i guess this is what we think in common at the moment… I just defend that such society is more efficient than others. Smoking and drinking are unhealthy and decreases an individuals performance dramatically in many areas and that is simply inefficient, and industries involving tobacco and alcohol isn’t a necessity for humankind preservation and evolution, if same capital was used for investments on food and medicine wouldnt it be better for everyone’s sake? Dramatically reduced deathrate related to starvation, acute, chronic pancreasis, lung cancer, tiroid cancer, liver problems, Lung inefficiency etc. also cheaper and more advanced medicine would be beneficial to everyones health worldwide. Not to mention sexual performance efficiency and living cell ratio in sperm. We were brought up in an enviroment where alcohol and tobacco usage were common, many of us used them as well, but would you want your child to smoke too?

    As i said i just suppose it would be better that way, everyone is free to do whatever he/she likes, besides telling a sailor stop drinking would be nothing but a joke in this and previous eras ;)

    #8227
    Avatar of SailorTrash
    SailorTrash
    Participant

    As long as we agree that neither of us has the right to regulate each other’s ideal society, we are good to go, my friend. I think we’ve both made our positions clear. I won’t smoke or drink while I’m visiting your seastead. You get to put up with smoke and beer when you’re on my boat. ;-)

    http://seagypsies-mikeandkatie.blogspot.com/

    Taking our cue from the Eskimos, we boat people have over 30 words for “leak.”

    #8231
    Avatar of Melllvar
    Melllvar
    Participant

    Shouri wrote:

    Jtg thanks for your suggestions, to be honest i started this thread so that i can hear people’s ideal societies in detail and use that data to further increase my idealogies effectiveness. But i get only criticism in turn and found myself defending my ideas instead of collecting data, no one is talking about what they want in detail, don’t get me wrong though i’m thankful for critics.

    Heh, I’d totally forgotten that was the original point of this thread… oh well. I hadn’t really given a lot of thought to what kind of society I’d prefer, but I’m pretty opinionated so it shouldn’t be too hard to come up with something…

    Things I definitely want in my society:

    1) Legalize illegal drugs, make information about negative side effects and treatment programs readily available.
    2) An educational system that actually got the funding it needs and had qualified people working in it. Its sole purpose should be to educate and inform the population, not to function as day care or prison for children. Anyone should be able to get a free, high quality education, regardless of age, wealth or intelligence. It should also be flexible to different types of people (unlike the current one, which pretty much forces everyone through the same hole regardless of shape), and should be optional (those who for whatever reason don’t want to attend school shouldn’t be forced to).
    3) More funding for science and technology, especially basic science.
    4) Way more rights for juveniles (they basically have none as it is).
    5) Way more rights and protection for animals (particularly against cruelty and factory farming).
    6) More proactive protection of the environment.
    7) I’m not really sure how to codify this as a law or societal rule, but I’d prefer a society where people generally treated each other fairly and with respect, instead of the top-dog alpha male mentality that seems prevalent in the US (and all the other places I’ve visited, for that matter). I’m getting really sick of dealing with people who take the attitude of, “I’m better than everyone else, so I can treat them however I feel like.” However, I’m pretty sure this is just human nature and will never change regardless of societal structure.

    Things that seem like they are probably good ideas but I’m not 100% sure about:

    1) Rule by a group of monks, knowledgable in governing, who are responsible to the population by some system of checks and balances. I’m thinking of people who are formally educated in how to manage a society for the benefit of both the individual interests and the larger group interests and who are removed from the financial system of the society in some way. This would be to try and separate the rulers from corruption. Essentially, you could only be one of the “leaders” if you gave up all right to accumulate vast amounts of wealth and power, and in return you got to live a more than comfortable life that was provided free of charge by the society.
    2) Free access to basic health care. Most people I know can’t afford it, even the ones that work and go to school full time.
    3) A ridiculously high estate tax (or “death tax,” for the republicans). I’m just not clear on what the rationale is for someone getting to be a millionaire and not having to work a day in their life just because of what their parents did with their lives. No, I’d say that money should go to a worthier cause, like the free health care for everyone, social welfare for old people, science and education funding, etc.
    4) Voluntary selective breeding programs… I’m pretty sure I’m going to get some Hitler comparisons with this one, so I should explain. While eugenics as traditionally practiced may be illogical and immoral, I don’t see anything wrong with allowing people to voluntarily sign up for a program, and then from the applicant pool taking the top n% in certain desired traits and allowing them to reproduce. If someone doesn’t qualify under this program, no big deal, they can still reproduce with anyone (including people who did qualify) they choose. This allows the random, uncontrolled evolutionary process to continue unabated, and doesn’t stop anyone from reproducing with anyone else they choose, while simultaneously creating a smaller group with enhanced positive traits. Because the two groups aren’t kept separate, these traits should then diffuse into the larger society. If nature does a better job than the people running the program do, the “natural” children would out-compete the “engineered” children, and if the program does a better job then the “engineered” children will eventually out-compete the “natural” children. The competition itself shouldn’t be viewed as a bad thing, since genetic competition has been ongoing throughout the history of biological organisms and is continuing right now. It will happen with or without such a program.

    If this sounds good to anyone else, feel free to join me on one of the first seasteads. Otherwise I’ll probably be floating around by myself for a loooong time…

    #8236
    Avatar of Shouri
    Shouri
    Participant

    Isn’t it better to just forbid pet animals? I think animals should be out there in wilderness instead of our seasteads and houses, ohh and those little dogs and fluffy cats which lost their compatibility with the nature should be set free in wilderness too. I hate mankinds habit of creating abominations for their amusement, its totally weird, and i don’t understand people who have sympathy for those animals instead of pity. Hmm and if you leave governing body to a monk group responsible to population will they let your first law stay as it is? mhm other than 1st article in ‘I definitely want’ tab this whole stuff suits my taste fine. And about that Alpha Male thingie, society needs organizations like companies, military and government to thrive and for them to be efficient there must be administration, a chain of command, at least i can’t imagine how to run them efficiently otherwise. Since people working in such enviroments may get the habit of ordering around in their daily lives too, and people who interact with them may tend to do the same to others they meet some percentage of the society will always be a bit arrogant i guess, so you are right there is no cure for it :)

    Btw there is one thing i really wonder for a long time, its not totally related to thread though, what happens if some group invades Sealand without Britain realizing it? It’s only 6 meters deep there just thinking about the posibilities makes me excited… btw why isn’t UK claiming sealand? I know eez and territorial water regualtions were different back then in late 60s but there isn’t any country who officially acknowledges sealand as a sovereign state and after the regulations changed it falls under british EEZ as i know, or is it still international waters, only 7 miles from the shore?!…

    #8238
    Avatar of thief
    thief
    Participant

    Shouri, I have a cat which is comepletely self sufficient. He lives outdoors at night and gets his own food by hunting. He lives in with us during the day for treats, shelter and company.

    How do you view that?

    As for my ideal stead, I’m really not up for writing an article about it at the moment. But as I don’t want to be a ruler, just a merchant, I’m more interested in comparing other people’s steads.

    To start with Mellvars:

    1) I generally agree, however I wouldn’t want it to go so far as to give a free ride to people who take it too far.

    2) Agree again apart from a couple of things. Firstly, the staff and resources required for a more personal education could be phenomenally high, easily to the point of unreasonable. I also think education should be mandatory unless the parents can put forward a good case as to why their child doesn’t need taught. The type of parents who wouldn’t force their kids to school are generally the type whose kids need it most.

    3) Fully agree.

    4) Agree to an extent, though I wouldn’t give them as much as I imagine you would.

    5) Rights for animals? I’m not so sure. Protection? Absolutely. I don’t imagine there will be many pets on seasteads anyway though. At least to begin with. And we won’t have room for free-range farming.

    6) You can do what you want for the environment, and if you want to take care of my garbage too that’s fine. But I won’t be paying for it.

    7) Of course this would be ideal, but as you said, it’s probably human nature.

    1) Agree compeletely. The monks need to be able to choose their entertainment items and such as well, but what they get should be up to their constituents. If they’re doing their job right, I’m sure nobody will mind them getting a nice TV, for example.

    2) Fully agree.

    3) I’m not sure about this one. My first instinct is to agree, but won’t that just stop people from working for their children’s futures? And cause them to spend all their money on their deathbeds?

    4) Agreed, though I think it should be privately run across many seasteads, rather than run by a single stead’s government.

    Altogether, I reckon I could live on your stead Mellvar. And thanks for laying out bullet points, made it much easier to reply.

    - Nick

    #8239
    Avatar of SailorTrash
    SailorTrash
    Participant

    Pets forbidden as well? Sounds like more and more fun in NoFunWhatsoeverLand every day. ;-)

    Well, we’ll keep our three cats on the boat when visiting. They’re great for catching pests, however, so you might want to consider keeping a few around to catch palmetto bugs, cockroaches, and such.

    http://seagypsies-mikeandkatie.blogspot.com/

    Taking our cue from the Eskimos, we boat people have over 30 words for “leak.”

    #8252
    Avatar of thief
    thief
    Participant

    I’ll have a cat on my stead. I’ll love the little bugger to peices, but I don’t know that I could justify it to myself were it not for the fact that it’ll have practical uses.

    - Nick

    #8266
    Avatar of Melllvar
    Melllvar
    Participant

    @Shouri:

    Pets – Honestly I’m not really sure how to feel about the ethics of domesticating and selective breeding other animal species. Haven’t really given it enough thought I suppose. However, since I have a dog, I seem to be condoning it by default. I can at least justify my having a dog since they’ve already been domesticated, and he would just be a stray (or have been put down already) if it wasn’t for me taking care of him (I got him from people who didn’t want him/couldn’t take care of him, not from a breeder). I’m certainly not against people taking care of animals though, and I wouldn’t say we should return them to their natural state by eliminating entire species of pets.

    Monks – Was just a term I used to describe my idea of separating the rulers from the more corrupt aspects of society, maybe I should have said ascetics or something else. I didn’t mean a religious group, personally I’m for leaders who make decisions on a rational basis, not based on their religious beliefs. As far as legalization goes, I’m betting that such a group would determine it to be in the best interests of the society. Amsterdam seems to have about 60% the rate of drug use that the US does, so making drugs illegal actually seems to drive up demand (I can believe it too, I used to drink almost everyday until I turned 21, after which I gradually cut back to about once a month).

    Alpha males, chain of command, illusory superiority, etc. – I wasn’t really referring to people in authority that have to take authoritative roles, like in the military or supervisors in business. I more just meant the people who tend to treat others badly and use some kind of excuse about it being their place in life to step on the weaklings, that its a natural result of evolution, or that it “makes stronger tribes,” (all actual excuses I’ve heard). Its more of a personal pet peeve that I would love to live without, but honestly I don’t think I would want to live in a society that micromanaged people’s behavior to this degree. I’d just generally prefer to be in a society where such people were a small minority.

    thief wrote:

    3) I’m not sure about this one. My first instinct is to agree, but won’t that just stop people from working for their children’s futures? And cause them to spend all their money on their deathbeds?

    Well, it might cause them to blow all their money on their deathbeds. The more I thought about it, I’m not exactly sure how you’d draw the line between giving money away for free and passing it on as inheritance. For example, if you pass a law that people can’t leave their kids millions of dollars, what’s to stop them from just giving it to them a few years before they die? You obviously can’t (or shouldn’t) outlaw people giving each other large sums of money… so I’m not exactly sure how this should work, part of why its in the “Things i’m not 100% sure about” tier. (Note: Since the estate tax already exists, the current legal system has probably already figured this out)

    I don’t think it would stop people from working for their kids futures though. I’ve never heard of anyone who worked hard to amass wealth just so they could leave it to their kids (working hard because your family is poor is different, I’m not suggesting taxing those people). I figure most people with that ambition do it for other reasons (personal gain, status, power, avarice, workaholism, etc.) than just to make their descendents filthy rich for generations.

    #8269
    Avatar of Ken Sims
    Ken Sims
    Keymaster

    Cats should have the right to be citizens of any sensible seastead.

    #8379
    Avatar of Alan
    Alan
    Participant

    OK, here’s another vision of an ideal seastead community:

    Summary: Everyone has the right to be themself and do most anything they like, but some activities may be limited by location, so as not to disturb neighbors and infringe on their rights.

    First and foremost, everyone owns themselves.

    There shall be no laws restricting freedom of conscience or freedom of thought.

    There shall be no laws restricting the right to self defence, nor the right to possess any reasonable means of self defence.

    Weak libel laws will be allowed, but otherwise there will be complete freedom of speech and of expression – though particularly offensive speech or expression (e.g. especially loud music or violent imagery) may be restricted to venues where all participants have chosen to be present.

    There shall be no laws forbidding anyone complete sovereignty over their own body, including the right to use any drugs or substances they like or to undergo any medical procedure they wish to go through – though they may be required to do so in locations separated from the general public if doing so might present a risk to others.

    There shall be no laws requiring any sort of occupational licensing, nor restricting any adult from any lawful work, nor restricting children from work unless it is deemed notably dangerous, but may outlaw the making of false or misleading claims about abilities or certifications, and the government can require various certifications from its own employees or any contractor providing government services.

    There shall be no restrictions on freedom of travel, aside from minimal regulations on vehicles to ensure the safety of others.

    Every person 12 years old or older shall have full rights as an adult, every person under 12 years old shall have the same rights held in proxy by their guardian, and any person under 12 years old may discharge their guardian and petition the courts for another. The same rules that apply to children will also apply to the mentally infirm.

    Unless the seastead is invaded or is under imminent threat of invasion or extinction, taxation can never exceed ten percent of earnings.

    The government of the seastead may facilitate education by making the means available to students, but may never require any adult to attend school, or require any child to attend more than 2000 hours of formal instruction, nor require more than 7 hours instruction in any one day. The government may not provide educational services itself.

    Of course, the usual restrictions on warrantless searches, right to a jury trial, etc.

    How’s that for starters?

    #8382
    Avatar of Carl-Pålsson
    Carl-Pålsson
    Participant

    Alan wrote:

    There shall be no restrictions on freedom of travel, aside from minimal regulations on vehicles to ensure the safety of others.

    This will destroy the market for competing private certification agencies in the transport sector. Responsible people should only travel with people they trust or with vehicles certified by a private agency with a good record.

    Government regulations are almost never on the right level. Half the time they are excessive, making vehicles more expensive for no benefit, and half the time they are inadequate, killing the people who put their lives in the hands of a central planner.

    Alan wrote:

    Unless the seastead is invaded or is under imminent threat of invasion or extinction, taxation can never exceed ten percent of earnings.

    A seastead where the people isn’t interested in voluntarily contributing to defense is not worth defending.

    Alan wrote:

    The government of the seastead may facilitate education by making the means available to students, but may never require any adult to attend school, or require any child to attend more than 2000 hours of formal instruction, nor require more than 7 hours instruction in any one day. The government may not provide educational services itself.

    Making the government educate children sounds noble enough in theory, but what it really does is eliminate the market for private alternatives. So children will be educated in a centrally planned system lacking most of the competition that drives progress in free markets.

    Having the government buy the education from private schools is a bit better than government schools for sure, but it is still a severely crippled market.

    Let parents keep their money instead and they will be able to send their children to private schools.

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