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Why No Consideration of Pykrete?

Home Forums Archive Structure Designs Why No Consideration of Pykrete?

This topic contains 38 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of jrlichtman jrlichtman 2 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 39 total)
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  • #5616
    Avatar of Thorizan
    Thorizan
    Participant

    Eventually temperatures equalize. The sacrifice to the stability of the hull to get additional cooling may, or may not, be acceptable.

    Good thoughts though… way to think about different ways to keep the structure cool.

    I’m just imagining Salomi pirates coming up along side a ship made of pykrete… and getting sprayed with super cooled water that freezes them instantly to their little dingy.

    Good times.

    __________________________________________________
    There is no fate but what we make for ourselves. Each to his fate.

    #5636
    Avatar of Pastor_Jason
    Pastor_Jason
    Participant

    Cold Salami pirates… sounds delicious.

    Live Well!

    -Jason

    #5641
    Avatar of Thorizan
    Thorizan
    Participant

    Indeed…. indeed.

    __________________________________________________
    There is no fate but what we make for ourselves. Each to his fate.

    #5660
    Avatar of cthulhujunior
    cthulhujunior
    Participant

    Stupid Second Law of Thermodynamics.

    Thanks.

    #5686
    Avatar of cthulhujunior
    cthulhujunior
    Participant

    It occurs to me: The problem with pykrete is that it melts. The solution is to replace the water with something solid at room temperature or to mix something in with the water to make it solid at room temp. I don’t know if pykrete can be modified for, say, sandstone chips immersed in plastic or glass; it may be worth a try. I was thinking, however, that we DO have a way of solidifying water… JELLO!!! Gelatine, as I understand it, can be quite firm when added in the right proportion to water, and, since it’s still mostly water, hopefully the pykrete will retain its nifty features. If it turns out the pykrete solvent needs to have some sort of crystalline structure when solid (like ice) for the resulting product to be strong… Darn. Still, I hope it helps.

    #5703
    Avatar of Carl-Pålsson
    Carl-Pålsson
    Participant

    Why are so few people living in houses built from pykrete? If it is such a cheap and good construction material there should be lots of money to be made by using it for housing, right?

    Also: if the plan is to make a huge slab and then put structures on top of it, like a big iceberg, how big will your propulsion bill be? Propulsion is a pretty big chunk of cash even in streamlined ships, made to glide easily through the water.

    #5715
    Avatar of cthulhujunior
    cthulhujunior
    Participant

    They don’t really work outside of cold climates, and in these environments the extra strength isn’t really necessary- not many threats to large structures up in the Arctic. Pykrete never took off because it was meant to solve the problem of steel shortage- a problem that ended before all the kinks were worked out of pykrete. Now we’re trying to adopt it for strong, buoyant shipmaking materials. Land houses never had the problem of steel shortage, the need to be stronger than concrete, or the desparately low materials budget. These last two, however, would be really, really nifty for the foundation of a ‘stead.

    Oh, and they aren’t really going to have much in the way of propulsion. The plan’s for something mobile like a M.A.S.H. is “mobile”- you can move it if you have to, but it’s big, slow, and doesn’t like it. I think the current idea is for a fleet of tugboats to move them to an unused part of the Pacific.

    Oh, and if the giant slab is made of a bunch of interlocking slabs, it will be much easier and cheaper to bring to the main area. I’m just sayin’…

    #5730
    Avatar of Carl-Pålsson
    Carl-Pålsson
    Participant

    They don’t really work outside of cold climates

    My point exactly. In fact I would say they don´t work at all (for permanent living with any degree of comfort). This is probably why nobody permanently lives in igloos (that I know of).

    If pykrete is only economically viable when there is a steel shortage that would make it unviable when there is not a steel shortage, such as now, and most of the time.

    What makes you so sure that a seastead would have a desperately low materials budget? A seastead will be economical (or not), I believe, based on the total cost of production, ownership and operation. Individual posts in the balance sheet doesn´t really matter by themselves. The bottom line matters. If pykrete is a cheap material, but requires more labor during construction, or is more expensive to maintain (cooling, insulation), or is more expensive to propel through the water due to higher displacement (iceberg strategy), then chances are it will be more expensive over all.

    Anything floating in the water needs propulsion or an anchor. Otherwise you will eventually crash into something else or stray into waters where you are not wanted. These costs will be higher if the vessel has more mass. It doesn´t matter if the propulsion is bolted to the seastead or in a tugboat pulling it along. More mass means more drag, and subsequently higher propulsion or anchoring costs.

    Interlocking slabs: yes, you can shape your pykrete iceberg in a low-drag configuration (theoretically anyway). But more mass still means more fuel and more cost. Steel boats and concrete platforms can also be designed low-drag. So this doesn´t help you in comparison with these.

    In conclusion, it is my belief that the reason why pykrete has never been used (for anything really) is that it is, in the end, more expensive than other materials. I am not doubting that it is possible to build and operate a ship or a ocean platform out of pykrete. You could probably build and live on a seastead made of pancakes. But the total cost would be too high.

    Let me stress that I don´t know any of this for a fact, and if anyone wants to experiment with pykrete I wish you the best of luck. But I believe you are barking up the wrong tree.

    #5842
    Avatar of Patri
    Patri
    Keymaster
    cthulhujunior wrote:

    It occurs to me: The problem with pykrete is that it melts. The solution is to replace the water with something solid at room temperature or to mix something in with the water to make it solid at room temp. I don’t know if pykrete can be modified for, say, sandstone chips immersed in plastic or glass; it may be worth a try. I was thinking, however, that we DO have a way of solidifying water… JELLO!!! Gelatine, as I understand it, can be quite firm when added in the right proportion to water, and, since it’s still mostly water, hopefully the pykrete will retain its nifty features. If it turns out the pykrete solvent needs to have some sort of crystalline structure when solid (like ice) for the resulting product to be strong… Darn. Still, I hope it helps.

    Pykrete is strong because it is ice, and ice is strong. Pykrete is cheap because it is made out of water, and water is cheap. I’m not a chemist, but I don’t think you can just modify water to have a different melting temperature. You can use a totally different substance, but there goes your guarantee of cheapness. The solidity of jello comes from the gelatin, not the water, because the water in jello is in liquid form. That’s why it isn’t solid like ice.

    #5843
    Avatar of Patri
    Patri
    Keymaster

    Yes exactly. It is hard enough to create a new country, lifestyle, and culture. If we have to invent new building materials along the way, it will be impossible. Our best shot is if we assemble existing technology for a new purpose. If this turns into a quest for Unobtanium, it’s doomed.

    #5851
    Avatar of Thorizan
    Thorizan
    Participant

    Pykrete is strong because the wood binds with the ice and friction is your friend. As for the melting temperature, because the wood acts as an insulator, the ice will take longer to melt.

    Mythbusters did a piece on this just last month. Here is a little clip from the show:

    http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/wood-pulp-power.html

    __________________________________________________
    There is no fate but what we make for ourselves. Each to his fate.

    #5869
    Avatar of cthulhujunior
    cthulhujunior
    Participant

    My whole reason for excitement about pykrete was the strength, cost, and theoretical lack of maintenance- no way it could rust, and possibly getting it cold enough to freeze the seawater and form a protective layer. However, if it requires so much extra effort to simply make it viable, the costs of keeping it from melting outweigh the lack of costs of keeping it from rusting. Thus it ought to be shelved and resources directed to more practical matters ie attaining “small but stable” on the deep seas. That’s not to say some neat things can’t come from pykrete; however, a cement block in hand is better than two in the bush. Thanks for your help, I had a couple ideas and thought this the best place to use them/get them shot down. And while I genuinely thought gelatinization may help the structur, I also thought the idea silly enough to be silly about it. I’d forgotten this is a serious attempt to solve real problems. Hence the “JELLO!!!” Again, thanks for your time.

    #10386
    Avatar of Belfast
    Belfast
    Participant

    pykrete expensive?

    yes if you use conventional sources of power

    This invention by joseph newman could produce power at a very low cost..

    The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Energy_Machine_of_Joseph_Newman

    http://www.josephnewman.com/

    he also has a theory on where the energy is coming from.

    cheap energy could be used to produce drink water for the sea and with the use of horticulture lights crops could be growen all year round.

    In a book downladable on his web site.

    Eric Roberts Laithwaite also has intrest this to say about gyrospce and gravty that link in to what joseph newman says.

    http://www.gyroscopes.org/heretic.asp

    Eric Laithwaite work on could be used to make a space craft that is anti gravty and inentia.

    This could be use to travel in to space and make a sister country in space.

    to help stop the pykrete from melting it could be insulated with a material called Starlite

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlite

    starelite would need to be covered in a water proof material.

    yes I know most scientist say these invention are not possible.

    to my mind there is just as much bad science out there as bad economic models out there.

    #10394
    Avatar of Altaica
    Altaica
    Participant

    Belfast wrote:
    to help stop the pykrete from melting it could be insulated with a material called Starlite

    Asbestos fibre-reinforced plastic?

    “Starlite’s composition is a closely-guarded secret,…” “…but he has not allowed them to retain samples for fear of reverse-engineering”.

    ouk emou alla tou logou akousantas homologein sophon estin hen

    #10462
    Avatar of Belfast
    Belfast
    Participant

    Altaica wrote:

    Belfast wrote:

    to help stop the pykrete from melting it could be insulated with a material called Starlite

    Asbestos fibre-reinforced plastic?

    “Starlite’s composition is a closely-guarded secret,…” “…but he has not allowed them to retain samples for fear of reverse-engineering”.

    [/quote]

    Starlite’s composition may not be that closely-guarded secret.

    Troy Hurtubise

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Hurtubise#Firepaste

    Hurtubise is protective of ingredients for his concoction, but during a segment aired on Discovery Channel‘s daily news show Daily Planet, he revealed one secret to be Diet Coke. Images from electron microscopes show that the particles in the paste are very porous, which makes it a good insulator. Other tests showed the paste contained lithium and bromine, bound into compounds in the paste. Microscopically, it looks like a diatom absorbent, such as kitty-litter or any common industrial oil absorbent.”

    seems to have made some thing called Firepaste that does the same job.


Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 39 total)

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