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What about artificial islands?

Home Forums Research Law and Politics What about artificial islands?

This topic contains 88 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of  Anonymous 5 years, 1 month ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 89 total)
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  • #7560
    Profile photo of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    Possible, but not very appealing

    If you are in an existing nations EEZ you can’t even fish or harvest wind energy without their permission.

    too small fish for the host nation to bother

    I have read reports of existing nations using their Coast Guard fleet to intercept and arrest single boats poaching in the EEZ…you think they won’t go after a floating island?

    #7562
    Profile photo of Eelco
    Eelco
    Participant

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    Possible, but not very appealing

    If you are in an existing nations EEZ you can’t even fish or harvest wind energy without their permission.

    I dont care for their fish, they can have em.

    too small fish for the host nation to bother

    I have read reports of existing nations using their Coast Guard fleet to intercept and arrest single boats poaching in the EEZ…you think they won’t go after a floating island?

    Im pretty sure they will, if you touch any of their fish. If not, they might leave us be. Better to talk these things over in advance though.

    In case we are harvesting any renewables, they would technically have a case against us, but even wind is hardly an excludable resource. And anyone actually making any significant use of renewables shouldnt have too hard a time twisting public opinion in favor of himself.

    #7581
    Profile photo of Jeff-Chan
    Jeff-Chan
    Participant

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    an existing nation could just keep building a series of platforms or artificial islands

    I covered this in an earlier posting. I’m not talking about small oil-rig-sized platforms here. I’m talking about a monolithic structure with thousands of permanent residents. Existing nations will not build chains of these huge platforms to extend the EEZ because there is no economic incentive. A platform like this will cost hundreds of millions if not billions in the end. To build a string of these just to extend their EEZ so they can claim fishing rights is not something they will do.

    It’s not the fish, it’s the oil, which is worth trillions of dollars. China, Taiwan and Japan have been fighting in courts and getting lots of submarine warfare practice over disputed islands in order to get mineral and oil rights that would come from extending territorial waters. I believe Russia is also disputing islands in order to get such rights. It’s a big deal.

    That said, Eelco is probably right that anything affecting fish within an EEZ would also bring out the coast guard too.

    #7582
    Profile photo of Jeff-Chan
    Jeff-Chan
    Participant

    Eelco wrote:
    In case we are harvesting any renewables, they would technically have a case against us, but even wind is hardly an excludable resource. And anyone actually making any significant use of renewables shouldnt have too hard a time twisting public opinion in favor of himself.

    Many countries are working on or have put windmills out in their territorial waters. So they have demonstrated an economic interest in the renewable energy in those waters. Therefore I doubt they would allow independent wind farms within their territorial waters / EEZ any more than they would allow oil rigs or fish farms or anything else that uses or captures their resources.

    #7583
    Profile photo of Eelco
    Eelco
    Participant

    Jeff wrote:

    Eelco wrote:

    In case we are harvesting any renewables, they would technically have a case against us, but even wind is hardly an excludable resource. And anyone actually making any significant use of renewables shouldnt have too hard a time twisting public opinion in favor of himself.

    Many countries are working on or have put windmills out in their territorial waters. So they have demonstrated an economic interest in the renewable energy in those waters. Therefore I doubt they would allow independent wind farms within their territorial waters / EEZ any more than they would allow oil rigs or fish farms or anything else that uses or captures their resources.

    [/quote]

    Well, its a bit of a non-issue, since deeper water wind energy isnt anywhere close to being economical, for seasteaders or landlubbers.

    #7585
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    You said: “Well, its a bit of a non-issue, since deeper water wind energy isnt anywhere close to being economical, for seasteaders or landlubbers.”

    I disagree,..There is plenty of constant wind offshore, specially the trade winds:

    Trade wind

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Jump to: navigation, search

    The trade winds are part of the Earth’s atmospheric circulation

    The trade winds (also called trades) are the prevailing pattern of easterly surface winds found in the tropics near the Earth’s equator[1]. The trade winds blow predominantly from the northeast in the Northern Hemisphere and from the southeast in the Southern Hemisphere. The trade winds act as the steering flow for tropical storms that form over the Atlantic, Pacific, and Indian Oceans that make landfall in North America, Southeast Asia, and India, respectively. Trade winds also steer African dust westward across the Atlantic ocean into the Caribbean sea, as well as portions of southeast North America.

    A seastead somewhere “out there” in the middle of nowhere, will have to spend a lots of money on producing power, namely diesel generators. Shipping diesel from mainland to and fro its a huge cost,…Keeping this in mind, wind power will be very economical, and will cover a big percenatage (if not all) of a seastead power needs.

    #7590
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Shipping diesel from mainland to and fro its a huge cost

    I very much doubt this. Shipping is pretty cheap when counted by the added cost per shipped unit of goods. Lots of petroleum is already shipped across the globe and that doesn’t seem to make it a whole lot more expensive.

    I guess there are some scaling issues though, so a lone SFS might have to pay a bit more for their fuel, but probably nothing extreme.

    Regarding seasteads having their own EEZ’s or even just a couple of miles of water property I think we can forget about this. It won’t matter how solidly the structure is fixed to the sea floor or what the laws say. The existing nation states won’t have it.

    And as long as you are operating in someone else’s EEZ you are at their mercy. If they decide they don’t like you they can just say that you are using some of their resources and kick you out.

    #7591
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    @ 150′ LOA and 10-12 knts cruising speed a vessel will burn about 1 ton of diesel/day for propulsion. The same vessel (a 150′ tanker) will deliver your fuel,…round trip. If the seastead is 1000nm offshore your are looking @ around 10 day trip = 10 tons on top of your fuel cost + crew cost.

    The price of 1 metric ton of diesel (313 gallons per MT) its about $1,000.00. It will cost $10,000.00 in fuel alone for the delivery.

    When they will sent you the bill, I have no doubt you will belive it :-)

    #7594
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Why would anyone use a 150 foot tanker to ship only one ton of fuel? That is crazy.

    Assuming the seastead isn’t a collection of “self-sufficient” hermits there will be regular traffic of people and goods to and from it anyway. Just about any boat from a daycruiser and up can transport barrels of oil.

    And a 1000nm trip is a bit extreme when 200nm+ is all you need to clear the EEZ.

    Perhaps it will be possible to place your seastead on a route where tankers pass anyway.

    A large part of all the products we use in everyday life today i shipped from far, far away. Why? Because it is more efficient than making everything locally.

    Now, I accept that shipping tens of thousands of tons of goods on a container ship is a lot more efficient that shipping a few barrels of oil on a small boat. But I still think the premium will be manageable.

    #7595
    Profile photo of Eelco
    Eelco
    Participant

    @OCEANOPOLIS

    I wasnt disputing the availability of wind. But i do dispute its economic viability. Even on the best coastal spots, their ability to function even in the context of providing some small fraction of energy, backed by a system of baseline power plants, is questionable. Deep water wind turbines are easily a factor three times as expensive.

    A single isolated seastead will obviously pay a high premium for transportation costs, but FYI, there are plenty of small isolated communities in the world, and they are doing just fine, getting their imports from all across the globe.

    #7597
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Will burn 1 ton a day, like in “use”,..the engine(s) of that 150′ tanker will use 1 ton a day, Carl,…

    I dont know where you get your data Eelco… There are some good informations here http://www.awea.org/.

    Everybody is entitled to an oppinion, but not necessary an informed one. It seems to me that you guys now better, maybe because you have a lot of experience related to this marine matters.

    #7603
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    Will burn 1 ton a day, like in “use”,..the engine(s) of that 150′ tanker will use 1 ton a day, Carl,…

    I dont know where you get your data Eelco… There are some good informations here http://www.awea.org/.

    Everybody is entitled to an oppinion, but not necessary an informed one. It seems to me that you guys now better, maybe because you have a lot of experience related to this marine matters.

    That ton wasn’t the one I was referring to. It was this one:

    The price of 1 metric ton of diesel (313 gallons per MT) its about $1,000.00. It will cost $10,000.00 in fuel alone for the delivery.

    But let’s use that example anyway. If we ship it only 200nm one ton will cost 3000 with shipping included. Three times the cost of the fuel alone. That is with a ridiculously oversized 150 foot tanker. Is it possible to ship one ton of fuel with a cheaper boat than that? Of course it is. Probably with a reduction of an order of magnitude or more in operating costs, if I had to guess. That would result in a shipping cost of 200 for $1000 worth of fuel.

    Or another example: This boat consumes two litres of diesel per nm at 25 knots:

    http://www.blocket.se/goteborg/Coronet_Oceanfarer_32__Volvo_Penta_D3_23259448.htm?ca=11&w=3

    It looks to me like you could carry at least five barrels of oil on this. That is at least a ton. 200nm times 2 litres is 400 litres. That is two barrels worth of consumption (40% premium). A lot, but not totally unreasonable. It consumes way less when going slower too; 0.5 litres per nm at 6-7 knots. That is a 10% premium. Totally cheap.

    #7605
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    I dont know where you got that ideea,…If the seastead is150 ft (small, by any standards), its generators will burn 10-12 tons/month to produce electricity, maybe more, depending on demand. So it has to ship 40-50 tons @ a time. The total expense to generate power will be around $150.000.00/year.

    All I was saying was that if the seastead can cover 80% of its power demand from wind and solar, which is possible, a lot of money can be saved in the long run. From the above example we are looking @ 120K/year.

    #7607
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Well, how much does a 150 foot tanker haul then? Probably more like 100 tons. Then we are back at a shipping cost of 10% (100000 for the fuel and 10000 for the shipping). And this was at 1000nm.

    It is entirely possible that making electricity with petroleum is too expensive, but it has very little to do with the price of shipping it, as far as I can tell.

    #7610
    Profile photo of DM8954
    DM8954
    Participant

    You’re both talking about the same ton… almost. You can ship more than a ton of fuel on a 150 foot tanker. 1 ton per day @ $1000 per ton = $1000 per day to run a ship that size. I don’t think I found the exact size ship Oceanopolis was talking about, but a few tankers of similar size seem to carry around 450-650 tons of oil. If you want to cut the example to 200nm it would be $3000 to get the oil to you from shore but they would also charge at least enough to pay for the return trip, so double it. [and that's if they only charge you 'at-cost' for the shipping] So, $6000 in shipping for $450,000-$650,000 worth of deisel comes out to 1.33%-0.92% extra for shipping. (but only if you’re buying a tanker-full. If you buy less, the shipping cost doesn’t decrease and eats up a larger percentage of the total cost)

    I have to admit that I was expecting the numbers to be a lot worse than what I came up with, here. 2% isn’t too bad, really. A 40% markup would have seemed too rich for my blood. Everyone on land paying $2.50/gal and we pay $3.50/gal because of shipping. That would suck… though I guess that’s part of life in the middle of nowhere.

    Becoming a brief stop along an existing tanker route would only help if you have your own refinery, since they generally only ship crude oil in those supertankers.

    Someone should do a life-cycle cost comparison between the various options. It’s the only way to know what we’re getting into. I imagine it would be a chart of potential estimate ranges of cost per kWh with columns for various size systems (5kW, 7.5kW, 10kW, 15kW, 20kW, 50kW, 100kW, 200kW, etc.) and rows for systems (Deisel generator, Wind Turbine, Solar, etc.). The problem is that local conditions effect these things quite a bit. Amount of solar or wind available, distance to ship fuel. For deisel, you’d also have to have more than one row for variations in storage capacity (weekly shipments, monthly shipments, biannual shipments), since such a factor can effect price considerably. You’d also want to have multiple rows for each of the above based on the current average price of oil remaining steady, growing slightly, and growing drastically over the period of time in question.

    That would take a lot of research to get decent and fair/comparable data but the information would be useful… sounds like a scientific paper, actually. Yeah, there are several ‘similar’ articles out there but not for free and likely pretty limited in scope. I’d probably actually enjoy crunching the numbers and setting up the charts and graphs for such a study but I’d find the data collection boring and difficult. On top of it all, there’s no way I have time to do anything for the next month and a half in the face of my impending marriage. If anyone actually likes researching things like the average cost of deisel generators of various sizes, construction costs for fuel storage tanks, how often you’d need to replace the typical battery, etc, etc, etc,… let me know. Maybe when I’m back in action we could get something started.

    Eelco, you’ve mentioned more than once now, that wind power isn’t economical. Your data sources could help in the calculations above. I’m wondering, though, how, exactly, you came to that conclusion. Part of your argument seems to involve “deep water” wind turbines. If we’re talking about a single family seastead with a smaller power system 15kW+/-, then it’s only a matter of installing a regular off-grid turbine right on the seastead structure, since you have to get your seastead to float safely anyways. That doesn’t mean it is or is not economically viable, just that there’s onle less factor running against it.

    How did we end up here, anyways? Oh, right. Harvesting renewable energy in existing EEZs. If you’re beyond the horizon (out of sight from grouchy, landlubbin’ NIMBYs) and not ‘blocking’ another wind farm or access to other resources, it might not be much of an issue. Personally, I’d want to steer clear of any EEZs whenever possible but using nothing but wind and solar is about as harmless/innocent as you could be with regards to ‘harvesting resources’ , which should help you avoid some of the unwanted attention. The light and air is just as good 300nm out as it is 100nm out (if not better) so why tempt Big Brother to push you around so soon?

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