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Waterproofing Concrete

Home Forums Archive Structure Designs Waterproofing Concrete

This topic contains 42 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of R-B-Wood R-B-Wood 3 years, 4 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 43 total)
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  • #1174
    Avatar of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    I’ve seen a lot of speculation on using concrete, but little in the way of waterproofing/sealing it. For interior chambers, such as water tanks, methane digesters, I’d suggest bees-wax. It’s quite effective and proven, in this capacity.

    Exteriors, on the other hand, are a whole new ball-game. My idea is to use one of the more durable concrete sealers currently marketed for heavy-traffic floors. Does anyone have any experience with these? Do any of them chemically bond to the concrete, so as to make a more durable waterproofing/chemical-proofing system? Does anyone know how they stand-up to weather, sea-water and even sewage and oil-slicks?

    IF we can effectively waterproof the exterior of the structure, bio-fouling is the next issue, thus the durability/heavy traffic questions. If it can endure routine scrubbing, along with the other hazards, so much the better.

    As for that scrubbing… I saw something to the effect of tieing a loop and using a robot. Perhaps the swimming-pool industry has something effective, to solve the issue. For that matter, saline pools are all the rage, what are they using for a pool sealant?

    Later,

    J.L.F.

    #9279

    The reason why there is not much studies about waterprooving floating concrete structures is, that there is no primary need to “waterproof such structures” as well executed concrete is waterproof and structures from Troll A to Nkossa simply have no need for any cover.

    In the case that parts of the structure has been poorly executed you can achieve a secondary seal by several dozends of methods that are described under “concrete repair methods” PU, epoxy, and similar materials has been used but the list of possible secondary seal items is probably much longer – bee wax will work i am sure, a long list of commercial “concrete sealers” will do the job too. To get a overview about floating industrial concrete structures and their technology the following reading list might be helpful ( imulead.com/tolimared/concretesubmarine/anuncios/du/ ) a good summary (status 2004) is available as pdf at ( http://www.tekna.no/arkiv/NB/Norwegian%20Concrete/Offshore%20Structures.pdf )

    Wil

    #9286
    Avatar of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    Typical Ferro-cement hulls are not thick enough to prevent corrosion. We’re talking putting the rebar in the middle of 5 “+ to somewhat prevent corrosion and still needing aluminum cathodes to redice the likelyhood, according to that pdf. Typical Ferro-cement hulls are in the neighborhood of 2″ thick, for smaller vessels.

    I need to know how to permanently seal the exterior of that 2″-3″ hull. I know the thickness will be somewhat thicker at the bottom, near the keel and for the submerged section, but I don’t expect the design to approach 7″+ thick.

    My intended ferro-cement dock segments, on the otherhand, will be of ultra-light ferro-cement, so they will float, so they need sealing, too.

    My idea is to build something similar to SeaOrbiter, surround it with a floating ring of segmented dock, with a rope web attaching to each segment, to keep it centered around my ‘Orbiter.’

    From those lines, I’ll be suspending Kelp (or some such), to feed the oysters, raised in cages, below hatches, in the floating dock pieces.

    Granted, I need an experienced ferro-cement hull designer to do the structure, but I want a sleeping capacity of around 20. That’s just for starters… It’ll have machanicals in the submerged section, with a number of internal decks, ascending from there, for everything else. Probably a submerged opening, for scuba and minisub use, a docking area for a small boat, along with jet-skis. Might put some kind of removable deck over the top, like Ballards idea, for helos, too.

    The ring of floating segments will have direction-specific keel-boards(removable, like smaller sailboats), to aid in towing, for major storm avoidance, move to another place, etc.

    A fairly simple idea, just complex in the design, planning and execution… LOL

    Later,

    J.L..F.

    If you can’t swim with the big fish, stick to the reef

    #9288

    a 2″ ferrocement hull is not something i would trust…not yet seen a successful example…(decades of maintenance free heavy duty marine ambient endurance)…apreciate a pointer if there is…

    Wil

    #9290
    Avatar of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    Many Ferro-cement boats and yachts have been built by amateurs. Many, based on design and attention to detail, were built well. Flip-side is that many were not, thus requiring inspections, before sale/re-sale. That’s why Ferro-cement aquired a bad name.

    Later,

    J.L..F.

    If you can’t swim with the big fish, stick to the reef

    #11197
    Avatar of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    curt wrote:

    Water proffing is not so much important.In agriculture countries,People used to make concrete canals for saving water.I think many researchers are developing new ideas but practically not implementable.

    Ship Hulls are not canals and salt-water causes corrosion to Iron, even when encased in cement. ‘Sacrificing Anodes’ have to be used with ferrocement that is exposed to salt-water, thus this thread. In addittion, other metals can cause galvanic corrosion of Iron that is within hulls, when exposed to salt-water. Lead is worst… Ferrocement hulls should never be ballasted with lead.

    Later,

    J.L.F.

    Never be afraid to try something new…

    Remember, amateurs built the ark, professionals built the Titanic.

    #11200
    Avatar of tusavision
    tusavision
    Participant
    #11202
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Will is right. There is no need for “waterproofing” ferrocement, if it was done right. I know this from personal experience.

    In the mid 90′s, I bought a 1977 built 40′ Samson ferrocement sloop. http://canadianbullshit.com/ferro.html. The boat had sat in the water for 4-5 years with no maintenance to the hull. The owner had died, and was an estate sale. You shud have seen the growth on her bottom! Amazing! I hauled her out, and clean the bottom. The bottom paint was long gone, but the hull, scraped clean to the ferrocement was intact. No rust showing (usually a sign of water infiltration to the mesh), no cracks, just a clean piece of ferrocement. 2 coats of bottom paint, repainting the topsize with good glossy polyurathane marine paint to the gunwale, splash, and she looked brand new in less than 48 hours. You couldn’t even tell that she was a ferro.

    But, if you insist to be in the “safer” side, it seems that adding amcorite to the mortar will do. http://seasteading.org/interact/forums/engineering/structure-designs/waveland-modular-mobile-offshore-base, http://www.am-cor.com/.

    #11203
    Avatar of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    Painting the hull is sealing it. I’m asking about for the very long-term… Anyone know what the Navy used on their Ferrocement hulls? One more reason to think a Dry-Dock would be a good investment for SSI. Cleaning and painting/sealing hulls…

    Later,

    J.L.F.

    Never be afraid to try something new…

    Remember, amateurs built the ark, professionals built the Titanic.

    #11205
    Avatar of tusavision
    tusavision
    Participant

    Protecting the rebar is a way of addressing the problem at it’s root:

    http://www.galvanizeit.org/images/uploads/publicationPDFs/C-GvsECR-06.pdf

    http://www.galvanizeit.org/images/uploads/drGalv/HDGrebar_Epoxyrebar.pdf

    Keep in mind the source of these PDFs when weighing in on the subject of epoxy vs. HDG however: they do make convincing arguments.

    #11208
    Avatar of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    Excellent info! Next step is the sealing of the hull. Not sure what to use. Has to be tough, resistant to abrasion, penetrate into the exposed surface and durable over time. Prefferably, it should have anti-fouling properties, like the liquid glass, from another thread, or like marine hull paint. However, it should be long-lasting, to reduce maintenance and maximize the interval between inspections and replacement… Could also be a multi-layer system, if it has a good track-record. Maybe a sealant covered with Rhino-liner?

    This whole thing is shooting in the dark, at the unknown. By putting it together, using the best practices, we get the best possibility of it lasting, thus it actually has a chance of seeing a bicentennial of seasteading…

    There is a hull, from WW 1(Made for US Navy) in use as part of a floating sea-wall(Canada), along with other ferrocement hulls… We Know 100 years is possible. Any way to find out exactly how it was built and what maintenance is done to it? Too bad we can’t just liberate them…

    Later,

    J.L.F.

    Never be afraid to try something new…

    Remember, amateurs built the ark, professionals built the Titanic.

    #11225
    Avatar of Carl-Pålsson
    Carl-Pålsson
    Participant

    Why does one need bottom paint on a concrete boat?

    If it is to slow marine fouling – won’t this make the “ever-lastingness” of the ferrocement redundant – if you need to drydock periodically and paint the bottom?

    Assuming you want to keep drag low obviously. If you don’t care about that I guess you could just let the biofuoling accumulate forever.

    But that would pretty much rule out dynamic positioning for ferrocement seasteads. DP means pushing through the water. This means you need low drag. This means you need to keep the bottom clean.

    How often do you need to scrub an unpainted concrete boat in order to keep it reasonably fast?

    On how to waterproof concrete: Just ask the people who make their living selling concrete. They have lots of ingredients and additives to make the concrete behave exactly as needed in any particular application.

    #11244
    Avatar of waterproofconcrete
    waterproofconcrete
    Participant

    I see that there is some debate on whether or not the concrete / ferro cement needs to be waterproofed at all, perhaps that is a separate discussion in itself. If however you are still contemplating various concrete waterproofing options, may I suggest an admixture. Kryton International’s KIM crystalline waterproofing admixture should warrant serious consideration. Full disclosure here, I am a rep for that company, however, this discussion is about waterproofing concrete and I consider myself and expert on this subject. Without going into a full sales pitch or explanation I’ll just direct you to find out more at their website about this innovative, extremely permanent concrete waterproofing method. http://www.kryton.com and certainly feel free to comment and ask questions here as well.

    #11297
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    I see that there is some debate on whether or not the concrete / ferro cement needs to be waterproofed at all,

    For instance might use a reinforcement material that is okay with being submerged in salt water, perhaps fiberglass or plastic.

    Kryton International’s KIM crystalline waterproofing admixture should warrant serious consideration.

    Until it becomes open-source or gets reversed engineered, there really isn’t anything to discuss.

    If we can’t make it ourselves, it’s not a long-term solution that a seasteader can use.

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    #11299
    Avatar of Carl-Pålsson
    Carl-Pålsson
    Participant

    I don’t see why not. Open source stuff is great, but there is no reason to get fanatical about it if there are commercial products that work and are cost-effective.

    As long as it lasts for the design life of whatever you are building, that’s a long term solution.

    And leaving all the issues with intellectual property aside, it is still often worth paying professionals to make stuff, simply because they are better at it than amateurs.

    elspru wrote:

    Until it becomes open-source or gets reversed engineered, there really isn’t anything to discuss.

    If we can’t make it ourselves, it’s not a long-term solution that a seasteader can use.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

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