Wars of Liberation
December 9, 2010 at 4:14 am #1403
Initially put this in the meetup section, since during war people meet-up, and have man-sex, also known as violence.
Though i moved it to the crazy-ideas since it is violent (crazy), and also far in the future (speculation).
Alternatively people can look at is a time to get together and play video games,
assuming that you’re controlling/assisting remote-control robots.
Our user Matt made a wonderful suggestion:Matt wrote:
I love the idea of different types of governments competing for the best people.
I love that you’ve got the guts to say that and I smell you are being serious. Western Papua (New Guinea), a brutal Indonesian colony they call “Irian Jaya” (Spring something), has a dwindling population trying to resist forced islamization and many outlying islands they might gladly barter for protection from Jakarta, something that as seen in East Timor, money can buy. The liberation war (expelling the Indonesian troops) would probably cause less bloodshed than the ongoing extermination of native Papuans by Indonesian authorities.
I myself was thinking of having a “liberation war”,
where we go in where people are in need,
such as those that are hungry or slaves,
then offer them a better life,
such as in a tribe,
Anyhow, so I was thinking north-australia, since there are a bunch of aboriginees being oppressed.
However it sounds like the need is much higher in Western Papau New Guinea,
which also happens to be in prime-seasteading territory (Doldrums),
Yes, also since Indonesia the “oppressor” is muslim,
we’ll likely have the support of western-nations in our efforts.
Of course it would probably be best if we used robots to do our fighting for us,
while we sit in our cozy submarines with our remote-controls and fabrication-laboratories.
Anyhow, much of the time, it’s actually getting to know people,
and informing them about how to live with forest-gardening and fabrication-laboratories.
as well as harvesting resoures, processing and other fun yet relatively usual tasks.
In terms how we could make ourselves accountable to the people,
is to make sure we only liberate those that have asked to be liberated,
they could fill out little slips of paper, saying what hardships they had to endure,
and then let us be the collectors for their hardships, so we could raid their oppressors(buyer),
conceivably they could have created a product and gave it to someone on credit,
they could of course ask for services in return for our credit,
such as freedom and resources to start a tribe.
The only way a nation gains legitimate territory is by defending it,
much as how sealand was territory that was defended to be kept.
So we could protect or liberate a peoples,
defending them from others, teaching them to defend themselves,
and then we could also hang around and do what we like,
within accountable limits of course,
karma or resonance be always.
Of course these kind of land-battles,
shall be something we can do only after we are somewhat well established,
we can try our luck with some pacific island nations if they have sufficient dissidents.
Do you have any ideas of places we could host “wars of liberation”?
or what are you thoughts on it in general?December 9, 2010 at 12:41 pm #12048
ellmer – http://yook3.comParticipant
aemh…first thought – are you out of your mind ?
second thought – this kind of ideas does not suit the purpose to draw serious political support and financing to seasteading…so this is probably part of the problem – and not of the solution.
third thought – i really hope we have finally come over the “age of wars” as a global cilvilisation or we are friyed… the latest developments (fall of the berlin wall no violence, system change in china no violence…etc…) let me hope that most people will finally understand that things change by changing IDEAS and peoples MINDS.
Wars of liberation – are we still mentally stuck at mental models of a cave man (defend hunting grounds – make my tribe survive killing another tribe – impose my culture over other culture) ? – we are in twenty first century now … hopefully – there is a real need to do and think things a bit different.
WilDecember 9, 2010 at 3:01 pm #12050
I was wondering when someone was going to call out elspru on his unique thoughts and even more unique evidences. Listen, I’m open to hearing out and understanding every belief system out there… I just can’t pin down what elspru believes. First it was all aliens, then things got technical with chakra calculations (reminds me a little much of scientology), then there were comments about casting spells and recently we’re back to star-beings.
That said, occasionally… he does throw out info that I find interesting. Like the Saffir Simpson Hurricane Intensity Scale on this post.
Back to point, I hate the thought of war (Former U.S. Army Soldier). Robots don’t make war any different… it’s still brutal to people. I’m hoping that Seasteading will give us a peaceful means of rebellion as Wil pointed out above. Unfortunately, I’m not as optimistic as Wil is about human-nature. Human-kind has not changed a bit in the time we’ve been keeping track of our natures and history… some of the worst wars and devestation are only a generation behind us. We’re prone to violence and we should expect this kind of treatment from people.
Again, I don’t condone violence and I personally seek a peaceful alternative. I’m just saying my eyes are open to the brutality of others and I don’t plan on being caught off guard. As we liberate minds with new ideas and free people with opportunity, let’s keep a wary eye on those oppressors from whom the people will flee… people in power are not known to give it up easily and violence is still an option many of them consider.
-JasonDecember 10, 2010 at 5:38 am #12058
Please don’t take this personally but I have an extremely difficult time figuring out what you are saying most of the time. Would it be too much to ask for you to try and write things in a more conventional way? Or maybe just a tl;dr version?December 10, 2010 at 11:40 am #12061
Oh come on guys, give him a break! I personally like reading his posts when I’m feeling down in the office/farm. And he does have the occasional pearl of wisdom hidden amongst the chakra-alien-self-replicating-tribe-stuff. Which itself is always fun to read.
King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.December 10, 2010 at 11:47 pm #12068
My thoughts are similar to Pastor Jason’s, and I think elspru is rather charming in his own way.
Should we make him our mascot? He’s already got an appropriate hat for it.
But seriously – as George Washington said (more or less): “If you want peace, prepare for war.”December 11, 2010 at 5:43 am #12073
Thanks for the support!
To keep we with you free, and living happily,
we have to maintain that freedom, and be prepared to rescue each other,
imagine some totalitarian government catches you or imprisons, pain, suffering, agony, oh woe,
now imagine some friends blow a hole through the side of the building and get you out, joy, freedom, family, nostalgia.
can go back to living in a submarine, or floating island in the seas.
It’s best to practice prison-breaking in relatively easy places first,
I’m not sure if third-world-countries would be,
but if using robots we could keep our bodies safe.
I saw a prison in Somalia that seemed fairly weak,
Also the pirates “outman and outgun” the executives,
and Somalian Law or Xeer believes taxes are a illegal,
so Puntland is an illegitimate westeren colonial government.
So it could be considered a humanitarian effort.
I agree war is a bit of a misnomer,
though can you imagine that perhaps some countries might not like having their prisoners “stolen”,
of course we as the liberators have the moral high-ground and so publically would be okay,
though privately militaries such as America which is planning on keeping it’s people in large prisons
the prisons are called “residential centers” since they hold entire families with children.
here is a nice compilation video of america’s end-game
part’s 1 – 3
Eventually we could free people stuck in those prisons also,
however considering the state of america’s military,
that’s a long term goal, when it’s weak,
and vultures begin circling.
calm aware desire choice love express intuit moveDecember 12, 2010 at 3:38 pm #12078
Oh just wanted to add there is already an active Liberation Front
though it’s the Animal Liberation Front, they are still practicing freeing beings from prisons.
calm aware desire choice love express intuit moveDecember 19, 2010 at 7:06 pm #12155
My first thought was that I don’t think I have ever seen anyone spend so much hypothetical money in a single post.
I honestly think that a seastead as a political sancuary is a very good idea. If you want to get BIG donations then get some world-wide press when your seastead provides a refuge that someone uses to escape a genocide.
Of course the next step is telling them “Well, you can either stay here and clean fish or we can drop you off within rafting distance of some more stable country.”
Off topic: elspru’s storm map inspired this:
The white ovals are (roughly) the ocean gyres. South atlantic looks really trouble free. Also, there are shallow spots on the eastern edge of it. Of course it is also located between the two poorest continents on earth.December 20, 2010 at 5:46 am #12165
I’ve noticed the British “Free West Papua” site is having “troubles” so here’s the Australian one: http://www.freewestpapua.com.au/
1) Need to clarify: My “idea” for freeing West Papua in exchange for some share of EEZ or even islands, was a very sardonic reply to Preneur’s comment about his idea of “buying off” independence from a poor country after buying an island. As I know, and suspect Preneur does as well, that no country no matter how poor and corrupt will sell sovereignty (and be responsible before the intl community for allowing the creation of a new competitor), I “suggested” freeing the Papuans from the imperialistic Javanese who control by colonial inheritance and 40 years of outright Fascism (Pancasila) a territory four times larger than their cultural and demographic core. This is very different from India, et al, as in the case of Indonesia, the decolonized country became a de facto colonizer of most of its territory. Not even the issue of inheritance is as clear cut as the Dutch promised the Papuans their own country (see link above or a history book)
2) I am not trying to link seasteading and war. The whole point of seasteading is that by “conquering” nature, a new nation can exceptionally be formed without the traditional prerequisite of a Liberation War.
3) Wil, what you say about World Peace is noble, desireable and even partially true: Most of the World is, as far as international violence goes, at peace. However one must not confuse order with peace. China for instance is part of the integrated “Functioning Core” and yet it boasts an extensive extra-judicial organ-farm / labor / extermination camp system, apparently nationwide, but at the very least in Manchuria.
Compare these two maps:
4) There is a very practical advantage in the way Elspru talks: In most cases with “normal” people (glad to admit I haven’t encountered many in this forum yet) I have to filter the bullshit (preconceptions, deeply embedded religious dogma that is repressed and comes out in the more sneaky, fuzzy ways) from the good information and reflections. But with Elpsru the bullshit comes so crystal clear, so neatly discriminated from objective information and sheer good intention that the filtering process is null. One would say that it takes less effort to read his posts thanks to the star-alien-chakra references. I also like his hat.
5) I was also studying the situation of Somalia and customary law in practice. Probably many of you have read this article: Stateless in Somalia. Take special notice of the suggestion of building a port in the Gulf of Aden. Maybe renting part of their EEZ and entering into contract with the fishermen-come-pirates could safeguard the shipping lanes and gain extremely good publicity for a seastead solving a major strategic problem. But, one of Al-Noors (Cities of Lights) is already planned quiet close on each coast of Bab el Mandeb.
6) Farmer, I strongly believe the Southern Hemisphere and particularly the South Atlantic are the way to go. You provided the evidence I thought was already taken for granted: The South Atlantic is the only ocean with no cyclones
“Cyclone Catarina was an extraordinarily rare tropical cyclone, forming in the southern Atlantic Ocean in March 2004.[2 ] (…)This event is considered by meteorologists to be a nearly once-in-a-lifetime occurrence.”
The Southern is the waterly hemisphere. If the conspiracy theorists are right, or close to right, (and let’s remember that Garet Garrett used to be considered something of the like) then it’s better to be away from the landmass.
Yes, South America and Africa are the poorest continents on Earth. That means they are the least exploited. Brazil is experimenting gigantic growth.
The Gulf of Guinea (a Doldrum) is said to be the next Persian Gulf for the many small nations and territories super-rich in still untapped oil. (I say territories because of the specific case of the Angolan exclave of Cabinda the land of paradoxes; but also for Rivers State, Nigeria).December 24, 2010 at 4:21 am #12192
Matt you bring up some really impressive points.
I absolutely loved the article about Somalia extremely successful regime.
However I’m not sure I agree that the South Atlantic is the best place for the home of seasteading.
Though of course you can go and spend as much time there as you wish.
Perhaps the trade-route between the poorest continents will satiate you.
Most landlubbers are on the largest continent in the world Eurasia,
so it would follow that most seasteaders would be in the largest ocean in the world the Pacific.
Here is a map of the Pole of inaccessibility.
As you can see for the ocean it’s in the south-pacific near south-america.
That location however is probably not accessible to surface-vessels due to average wave height being 5 meters.
Though as Ellmer likes to say, only have to be submerged 1/3 of wave-height for comfort.
So in our submersible boats we’d be just fine.
Also from the Pacific we’d have access to the most biodiverse areas on the planet
along the West coast of the America’s there are many mountains of minerals, fjords, islands, caves, and low population.
here is population map:
In any case as seasteaders we’re more likely to be a nomadic peoples,
i.e. from Fjords of the Americas or easily defensible places, and plentiful resources, our main bases,
to South-East-Asia a place of many peoples and cheap goods, labour, electronics and so forth.
Interesting to note however that the most populated places,
seem to be next to areas of tropical storms,
likely due to adequate rainfall,
such as in north-america and asia.
the exception being Europe,
which is surrounded by seas.
In any case, we could supply tropical storm areas when it’s safe,
or even when it is storm-season in submersibles,
while confident our home-base has good weather all year round.
Safe for our children to play in the sand or with rocks.
Aisen of Chile and British Columbia of Canada seem like the places where our bases can be best hidden.
Also of note in British Columbia there are native peoples, who are still negotiating land-claims,
so it’s possible if we offer them an alternative to Canada they’d gladly negotiate with us.
In British Columbia the natives also have a very rich boat-building culture.
Most of the sedimentary rock seems to be underwater,
though there are above-water areas,
we could potentially tunnel mine there.
One of the main advantages is the rainfall, and mountains
in some places it’s consistently 4m of rain a year,
so we could certainly harvest quite a bit of electricity.
Also Canada’s Navy only has 12 ships, 3 of them being submarines.
So it’s quite likely we’d be able to hold our own in the face of opposition.
If you’d prefer to have the nations support in us being there.
Chile and most of south and central america are co-signers of the Indigenous and Tribal Peoples Convention.
1. This Convention applies to:
(a) tribal peoples in independent countries whose social, cultural and economic conditions distinguish them from other sections of the national community, and whose status is regulated wholly or partially by their own customs or traditions or by special laws or regulations;
We neo-tribal seasteaders are indigenous peoples
with our unique social, cultural and economic conditions
and our status is self-regulated by our customs or laws.
Another advantage of the pacific side of south-america,
is that from it we can access the only piece of unclaimed land on the planet marie byrd land.
Also of course once we have our bases established,
we can further lead the tribalisation or liberation of the rest of the world.
Remember it’s the most powerful navies,
that have defined the recent super-powers,
(Rome, Spain, Britian, Soviet, America).
So as seasteaders we have the natural advantage.
calm aware desire choice love express intuit moveDecember 28, 2010 at 5:13 pm #12212
That first map was very interesting! I love how it ‘ends’ the British Empire, makes Canada part of the United States, Iran part of the USSR and creates ‘Hebrewland’ out of Trans-Jordan… All in 1942!December 29, 2010 at 3:37 pm #12219wohl1917 wrote:
That first map was very interesting! I love how it ‘ends’ the British Empire, makes Canada part of the United States, Iran part of the USSR and creates ‘Hebrewland’ out of Trans-Jordan… All in 1942!
Can you tell me which country’s borders remain today exactly as they were both during the War and on that 1942 “Moral Order” map?
And which was the state philosophy of such country at that time?
@Elspru: I’d been writing a long reply to yours on the 24th but baby Xenu intervened and is now lost. You raised a particularly important point which I want to adress properly.December 29, 2010 at 5:20 pm #12221
At first glance that’s a tall order! The three anomalies I mentioned were just the those that jumped out at me. The closer you look the more anomalies you find… But, to your specific question the short answer is NONE. There are no ‘stand alone’ countries whose borders remain today ‘exactly as they were both during the War and on [the] 1942 “Moral Order” map’. They all are ‘unified’ in one way or other with others into larger ‘states’. As for the stated philosophy…well…’tis the season to be nuttier than a fruit cake! If you believe in and suport the NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM and hope for its eventual ANNUIT COEPTIS, then good for you! If not may the blessing of JHVH-1 and J. R. “Bob” Dobbs be upon you.December 30, 2010 at 4:23 am #12224
If you compare FDR’s NWO (NMO, New Moral Order sounds so offensive!) map with a real map from anytime from now to the last 70 years you’ll see that Turkey’s borders remain mostly unchanged: The European part of the Peninsula is partially bicolor in that NWO map but Istanbol shows to be clearly Turkish with no “Secuirty Outpost” either. The only other microtechnicality is Turkish Cyprus, but even on real maps it’s shown as a different entity from Turkey so my point remains.
Now why when in the midst of WWII, with the Allies identifying with the enemy and planning a NWO, would leave Turkey rather untouched?
Both Turkey and the Kingdom of Persia were Neutral during the War, and it was Persia the friendlier to the allies (supply line to the Soviets) while Turkey’s father, the Ottoman Empire, was an ally of Germany. Persia however doesn’t retain sovereignty.
But Alas, Turkey was Kemalist at that time. (and up to the recent change to democracy and subsequent Muslim Identity reaffirmation. Also remember Istanbol was capital of the Caliphate until WWI when the Caliphate was dismembered and “Hebrewland” carved and promissed by the Balfour Declaration – likely in exchange – )
So in the midst of WWII where only good intentioned Socialist and Democratic systems were tolerated against the evil crazy Nationalists of Central Europe and Japan; Turkey, a country created out of the will of one man, with a Nationalist system complete with ethnic cleansing and all, needs no change?
If we further compare Roosevelt’s Fortune Map with the Closing the Gap 2004(6?) map, we can see how the obvious problem today, the equatorial belt of recently decolonized countries is the same that is overlooked and grossly simplificated in 1942 by Federations and Unions of States in South America, Africa, Arabia and India.
Persia goes to the USSR.
Albeit not necessary Turkey, because unlike Persia, Kemalist Turkey was already everything that they desired the rest of the world to be: A Republic, not a Monarchy; Cruely Nationalist but not expansionist (having been tamed in WWI), and in the path of forced Western Standarization: the most obvious example of Kemalism is the replacement of the Turkish Alphabet for the Latin one.
The thing to rescue from these maps, perhaps more corny and obvious in the older one, is the probably misguided desire for World Peace and ORDER. While I think peace among beings is a value to uphold, I rather obviously think that peace among nations not only doesn’t guarantee but not even necessarily furthers human liberation (from the state, or whatever entity that legalizes abuse).
Maybe in that respect Ayn Rand was right in warning us about Kant
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