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The Venus Project

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This topic contains 34 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Elwar Elwar 2 years, 6 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 35 total)
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  • #15071
    Profile photo of Dervogel707
    Dervogel707
    Participant

    No Venus Project…NEIN!!!

    #15074
    Profile photo of Shouri
    Shouri
    Participant

    What gives the computer to track my goods, transportation etc? What stops me from destroying the infrastructure which computer uses to track my transportation, trade etc. for the sake of personal freedom? Ofcourse there are laws, no society can exist without a governmental body, be it society itself or a dictator, even matter itself, our reality(or should i say actuality) is bound by rules, the more complicated a network gets more rules are necessary, it is common sense and yet liberterian and anarchist people find this as hipocrisy :S Our body works with its laws, a software is written with laws and works with it’s own laws, society is no different nothing is different something trying to try different will become nothing…

    #15075
    Profile photo of Mad-Dog-Tannen
    Mad-Dog-Tannen
    Participant

    Sickor wrote:

    “They must find it difficult, those that take authority as truth, instead of truth as the authority”

    Ah, there’s that smug quote again, spoken like a true fake stoic, imagining that to merely quote simplistic rhetoric makes one appear wise, and secretly hoping it digs at the other.

    I haven’t heard anything else more wrong! You don’t need money to have people! Where did you get that idea?

    You misunderstood what I had written. I was not very clear. I specifically said that to have a nation without money you would first need a nation without people. My implication was not that you would actually literally need a nation without people. Rather, I was making an allusion towards the fact that money and people are inseperable. Money is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING MORE than a medium of exchange of value. It has no value whatsoever in and of itself. Thinking otherwise is not a countering opinion, it is a falsehood – purely wrong.

    Any society of people will have within it items of varying value, from food to shelter to clothing to whatever else. As money, again is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING MORE than a medium of exchange for value, money will always exist where there are people. If you do not understand this, you do not understand money, value, mediums of exchange, or something else integral to this discussion.

    One of their ideas make sense, that people should be provided with the necceseties of life without a cost!

    NOTHING is without cost. Even food gathered from nature requires labor to be brought to the consumer. That labor is the cost, and it has it’s value. Denying the person who gathers such food the equivalent value of their labor in return for their work has a name. It is called “slavery.” If you do NOT deny them the value of their labor, but grant them the equivalent value of their labor in any manner at all, whether it be providing them with clothes or what-not, something they were not producing themselves, this is still an exchange of value, and is therefore NO DIFFERENT AT ALL than if you paid them for their labor and allowed them to buy the clothes or what-not. The only thing that is different is what you are using as a medium for the exchange of said value.

    If you cannot understand this, then you need to study economics. If you think this is wrong, then you have a faulty understanding of economics, labor, cost, mediums of exchange, or something else integral to this discussion.

    Now sure it comes out in taxes but that is the downfall of the monetary system! There is no need for people to have to “buy” things.

    sigh. value is a attribute assigned by humanity to an object or action. a rose has no value as a decoration if there is no person to want to buy it (and no, that the flower has pollin that a bee can collect does not give it value outside of humanity. thats not what is meant by value in economics). it is human nature to assign value to all of the objects and actions with which we interact. We view some things as better than other things. we view some things as more necessary than other things. to exchange any objects or actions between people, which by human nature those people have assigned values, there must be a standard for exchanging the objects or actions – all parties involved must agree upon a value for each object or action before they can exchange them. person a would not want to exchange building a house for person b in return for person b giving them a single apple. Thus, as standards of value are agreed upon by groups of people, even if they are merely exchanging them directly they are still giving something of value in return for something else of value. Even if person a builds the house for person b and gets nothing in return from person b, assuming that the action was voluntary by person a and not coerced or forced (theres that slavery again) they are still getting something equal in value, whether it be their satisfaction at helping person b, or whatever. Thus, even if nothing is exchanged, the action/object is still “paid” for with equal value.

    Even in a society where they dont even use rocks for money, things are still bought and sold. So how can you ever say there is no need to “buy” things?

    #15077
    Profile photo of Sickor
    Sickor
    Participant

    Shouri wrote:

    What gives the computer to track my goods, transportation etc? What stops me from destroying the infrastructure which computer uses to track my transportation, trade etc. for the sake of personal freedom? Ofcourse there are laws, no society can exist without a governmental body, be it society itself or a dictator, even matter itself, our reality(or should i say actuality) is bound by rules, the more complicated a network gets more rules are necessary, it is common sense and yet liberterian and anarchist people find this as hipocrisy :S Our body works with its laws, a software is written with laws and works with it’s own laws, society is no different nothing is different something trying to try different will become nothing…

    OK, first of all, it is not tracking as in watching you, what I mean to say is that the computer runs everything….now i’m not sure what you mean but if what your saying is that you would rather have a human do it just because you don’t want “big brother watching you” or something to that effect than all I can say is suck it up and get over yourself.

    Second, if you had a system that provides everything you need (like the one the venus project has proposed) than why would you want to destroy it? People only do these things today because of poverty, which is the fault of the monetary system. And no you don’t need to have laws, laws are just an attempt to control people, and laws are constantly broken! It is like telling a kid, there is something special in this box, but don’t open it…what do you think he is gonna do? he is gonna open it! You know i’m starting to find myself more liberatarian every day, because I too was brainwashed by the propaganda put out today. If everyone is reasonably happy and has everything they need (meaning no poverty) than why would they want to steal, or kill, getting rid of laws and money eliminates 99% of crime right there, sure there will be people who will kill but it is much less so, and I think if a guy went around killiing or causing problems each city would find a way to take care of it. Laws are guidlines baiscally.

    “society is no different nothing is different something trying to try different will become nothing” that is based off of your illogical assumptions and nothing more show me some proff and we will talk.

    _______________________________________________________________________________

    #15078
    Profile photo of Sickor
    Sickor
    Participant

    emmettvm wrote:

    Ah, there’s that smug quote again, spoken like a true fake stoic, imagining that to merely quote simplistic rhetoric makes one appear wise, and secretly hoping it digs at the other.

    i’m not trying to make myself look smart, it is just that that is my favorite quote. And excuse my language but you acting like a smart ass makes you look like more of a moron because you based your statement off of your own opinion with no ryhme or reason to back it up. So get over yourself.

    You misunderstood what I had written. I was not very clear. I specifically said that to have a nation without money you would first need a nation without people. My implication was not that you would actually literally need a nation without people. Rather, I was making an allusion towards the fact that money and people are inseperable. Money is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING MORE than a medium of exchange of value. It has no value whatsoever in and of itself. Thinking otherwise is not a countering opinion, it is a falsehood – purely wrong.

    Any society of people will have within it items of varying value, from food to shelter to clothing to whatever else. As money, again is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING MORE than a medium of exchange for value, money will always exist where there are people. If you do not understand this, you do not understand money, value, mediums of exchange, or something else integral to this discussion.

    Ok, yes your right it is just a medium of exchange but I misunderstood nothing, what you have written is that no matter what humans must have a medium of exchange, what about the bartering system? That was used up until the formation of this stupid monetary system. If you read the venus project proposes that there will be no need for a medium of exchange because the machines will provide us with everything needed.

    “If you do not understand this, you do not understand money, value, mediums of exchange, or something else integral to this discussion.” Well your entire idea that humans need a medium of exchange is completely false thus this statement is as well.

    NOTHING is without cost. Even food gathered from nature requires labor to be brought to the consumer. That labor is the cost, and it has it’s value. Denying the person who gathers such food the equivalent value of their labor in return for their work has a name. It is called “slavery.” If you do NOT deny them the value of their labor, but grant them the equivalent value of their labor in any manner at all, whether it be providing them with clothes or what-not, something they were not producing themselves, this is still an exchange of value, and is therefore NO DIFFERENT AT ALL than if you paid them for their labor and allowed them to buy the clothes or what-not. The only thing that is different is what you are using as a medium for the exchange of said value.

    If you cannot understand this, then you need to study economics. If you think this is wrong, then you have a faulty understanding of economics, labor, cost, mediums of exchange, or something else integral to this discussion.

    OK yes labor is form a value, I never questioned that. But it won’t matter if all we have to do is go to the store to get clothes! Human labor is no longer needed and outdated, that is the entire point of the venus project and I don’t think you understand that. If the machines do everything then man is not doing any labor so there is no need for value, read up on the venus project and its ideas and then come and right because you clearly do not understand the fundamentals of the venus project. If we give them clothers, they did nothing to get them so there is no labor or exchange of value except the machine giving the person the clothes!

    Now sure it comes out in taxes but that is the downfall of the monetary system! There is no need for people to have to “buy” things.

    [qoute]

    sigh. value is a attribute assigned by humanity to an object or action. a rose has no value as a decoration if there is no person to want to buy it (and no, that the flower has pollin that a bee can collect does not give it value outside of humanity. thats not what is meant by value in economics). it is human nature to assign value to all of the objects and actions with which we interact. We view some things as better than other things. we view some things as more necessary than other things. to exchange any objects or actions between people, which by human nature those people have assigned values, there must be a standard for exchanging the objects or actions – all parties involved must agree upon a value for each object or action before they can exchange them. person a would not want to exchange building a house for person b in return for person b giving them a single apple. Thus, as standards of value are agreed upon by groups of people, even if they are merely exchanging them directly they are still giving something of value in return for something else of value. Even if person a builds the house for person b and gets nothing in return from person b, assuming that the action was voluntary by person a and not coerced or forced (theres that slavery again) they are still getting something equal in value, whether it be their satisfaction at helping person b, or whatever. Thus, even if nothing is exchanged, the action/object is still “paid” for with equal value.

    Even in a society where they dont even use rocks for money, things are still bought and sold. So how can you ever say there is no need to “buy” things?

    [/quote]

    ” So how can you ever say there is no need to “buy” things?” I will say this one last time READ THE FUNDAMENTAL PARTS OF THE VENUS PROJECT AND YOU COULD ANSWER THIS QUESTION YOURSELF!!!!

    No one =needs to own anything really, if there is no monetary system there is not buying or selling. All there is is giving. Everything is made available to everyone so they can enjoy it. There will no longer be a value on things!

    I’m not going to explain anyfurther until you have told me that you read a decent about about the venus projects ideas.

    _______________________________________________________________________________

    “They must find it difficult, those that take authority as truth, instead of truth as authori

    #15079
    Profile photo of Dervogel707
    Dervogel707
    Participant

    Sickor, this prject will never work delete this thread and any thoughts you have left that are positive about the Venus Project. We can survive with out a money system but I really HATE all the other aspects of this project. Shouri, please destroy anything the Venus Project offers. NO MORE VENUS PROJECT.

    #15084
    Profile photo of Ken Sims
    Ken Sims
    Keymaster
    Dervogel707 wrote:

    Sickor, this prject will never work delete this thread and any thoughts you have left that are positive about the Venus Project. We can survive with out a money system but I really HATE all the other aspects of this project. Shouri, please destroy anything the Venus Project offers. NO MORE VENUS PROJECT.

    While I personally wouldn’t want to be part of the Venus Project, it is an experiment with a different kind of society. As long as people are involved by consent and not being forced, why should you or anyone object?

    That’s one of the points of seasteading … to try out different societies and different governments.

    There are a lot of those societies and governments that I personally wouldn’t want to touch with the proverbial ten-foot pole, and many which I personally think would not be real likely to succeed long-term. But even so I think that it would be worthwhile for the people who want those societies/governments to get them an honest try and see what happens.

    #15088
    Profile photo of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    Ya, venus-project is very luciferian, morning-star and all.

    They just seem quite good at fundraising, publicity and membership.

    They even have intentional-community houses, I went to a party at one, it was pleasant.

    I’m sure there are things or elements we could use, learn, share, and experience for mutual growth.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #15098
    Profile photo of Sickor
    Sickor
    Participant

    Ken wrote:

    While I personally wouldn’t want to be part of the Venus Project

    May I ask why not? Just curious…

    #15103
    Profile photo of Dervogel707
    Dervogel707
    Participant

    Because Sickor not many people would like to be part of such a ungiving and bad society. At least for me but other people hate this idea for diffrent reasons so why would we create such a society with so many things to hate.

    #15104
    Profile photo of Ken Sims
    Ken Sims
    Keymaster
    Sickor wrote:
    Ken wrote:

    While I personally wouldn’t want to be part of the Venus Project

    May I ask why not? Just curious…[/quote]

    Before I answer that, let me say a couple of other things …

    First, I don’t want this thread to get side-tracked into a debate on different types of societies or governments.

    Second, I don’t think it’s possible to determine that one type of society or government is best. Different people have different criteria in determining what society or government they personally consider best.

    Third, even if it were somehow possible to determine in some objective way that one particular type of society or one particular type of government really is best, that doesn’t mean that other types shouldn’t exist. There’s no reason for someone to not be part of a society or government that’s less than optimal if it suits them better.

    With all that said … very briefly, I’m pretty much a libertarian. My resources belong to me and I’m the one who decides how to use them. If I choose to use them in a way that’s less than optimal, that’s my choice.

    #19932
    Profile photo of arcturus
    arcturus
    Participant

    Venus Project is Communism with AI.

    #20028
    Profile photo of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    Ya resource-management is communism, or better known as totalitarian centralized dictatorship.
    In Soviet Union they used various metrics to see how much “progress” they were doing,
    this led to many useless activities, since empty trains would run back and forth to improve metrics.

    Near the fall of the Soviet Union, in the 70’s and 80’s they saw the problems in their own “centralized plan”,
    and made an effort to get computers to help manage this plan, the field was called “cybernetics”,
    my mom got a Masters in cybernetics, my grandmother was overseer of the mainframe.

    Anyways, point being, after all that, the soviet union still fell apart,
    in large part due to the resource of alcohol being prohibited,
    which is something Russian people can’t tolerate,
    When people get sober, they get co-ordinated,
    so lots of people flew out of their windows,
    politicians, communists and the like…

    To prevent this kind of thing occuring,
    the AGI I’m developing is much more distributed in nature,
    it is open-source so anyone can install it.
    Eventually it can be used as a teacher or companion,
    to help create abundance in your own life,
    by giving you power through knowledge.

    For instance if you’d like to make some pottery,
    it could look up what you need for that,
    for instance “clay” and a “pottery kiln”
    and give you instructions on how to get or set up those things.
    The main aim is making the we with you into someone that can reproduce it, circuit-boards and all.

    In terms of the Venus Project it’s ridiculously monolithic and huge,
    if they were seriously interested, they’d have some scaled down practical stuff.

    Zeitgeist crowd is much better in general, I like their parties, and sustainable practices.
    Recently got my bust scanned, and shall get a model made with their homemade 3d printer :-).

    #20029
    Profile photo of Elwar
    Elwar
    Participant

    Will there be some sort of interface with some sort of machines or robots which can punish those who do not conform?

    With communism you must use fear and pain to motivate people. Communism takes reward out of the productivity equation so you must have a good method of instilling fear into people in order for them to be productive.

    Unless you just want an unproductive society and everyone starves and dies. Probably a better option than the fear option. More humane too.

    #20040
    Profile photo of Ken Sims
    Ken Sims
    Keymaster

    What about a communist seastead with fully-informed consent? Then there shouldn’t be the need for punishment.

    One of the problems with communism in the Soviet Union, China, etc. is that it only had the consent of the government, but not the governed, so it was doomed to fail.

    I wouldn’t want to be part of a communist seastead myself, and I personally doubt the long-term viability of one even with fully-informed consent, but I also think it would be an experiment worth trying by those who would make the appropriate commitment.

    And that’s one of the points of seasteading … experimenting with different governments.

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