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A universal Flag only needs a movement?

Home Forums Research Law and Politics A universal Flag only needs a movement?

This topic contains 43 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of elspru elspru 4 years, 3 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 44 total)
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  • #10501
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    what will cause a lot of coruption? What is a communist system? And what do you know about the so called “communism”? There was never such thing as ” communism” dude,…just the “proletarian dictatorship”-READ: those fat pigs from The Nomenklatura (backed by the Secret Police) who were staffing their pockets with millions of $,…. Churchill and his body Roosvelt left Eastern Europe to that butcher Stalin and 30 mil. people died because of that.

    “All are equal, but some are more equal than others”,…that’s capitalism man.

    “What you are proposing to do is take away peoples hard earned cash and give it to others, while those that do not earn as much get free money.” ?? Are you on crack? When did I say that? STOP posting while high!

    If you are posting here just because you have no social life, pls do yourself and us a favor, go and read a book and stick to the “just want to read about it” .

    #10502
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Fuck the UN man. They dont mean nothing out there, 2000nm offshore. All it matters out there is size, fire power and balls, dude.

    #10503
    Profile photo of Shouri
    Shouri
    Participant

    I didn’t mean that you shouldn’t earn if you work more, i just meant that some elements in capitalism is causing corruption, sorry if i caused any misunderstanding.

    Like which elements?

    *Inheritance which destroys equality upon birth. Our bodies return to system when their lifespan ends this cycle is the cause of almost infinite sustainability of nature. Nature is a system quite similar to an economy. Economy is actually no different than an ecosystem.

    *Material currency is another problem one for enforcing laws regarding to monetary issues, it would be alot more practical and less corrupt if currency exchange was easier to track by the governments, solution? digital currency perhaps? This idea would probably kill private banking probably though but well…

    *There might be less problems in west perhaps but due to capitalism more than half of the world is practically poor, ok i am not a communist but well people weren’t actually dying cos of hunger in Soviets ,lets accept one fact there are people dying of hunger in the world we live in. And even if i don’t prefer it my concious says that it prefers x people dying cos of authoritarian rule instead of 10x people dying from hunger. (ok this will sound like i am advocating Communism but i don’t) Soviets weren’t communist they tried to be communist but they failed, communism can not be applied to uneducated people, people must be willing to be communist and they must be fully aware of what communism means in order to make such a system works which is practically almost impossible.

    *Back to digital currency, there will be no way to avoid tax, no way for bribery, no way for any other corruption which is related to currency… Since

    200nm offshore…if you can broadcast what is happening on your ship live in an instant, most attackers’ balls will shrink imo…(assuming they are armed forces belonging to some political entity)

    As for what i know about Communism, Communism isn’t equal to Soviet Union, there are many so called democratic nations in the world most of them are total failures. Just like how Soviets failed in their experimental communist regime. Communism is an ideology just like Democracy given the correct circumstances each of them can thrive quite well, but that doesn’t mean one is better than other or one of them is the best governing method out there, Windows is the most common operating system, ie is the most common explorer most people use them so they are best? I don’t want to believe anyone sane could actually think like that. While i am not a communist or democrat i wouldn’t go as far to say that they suck, true democracy has a practical history of roughly 300 years and a total history of more than 2000 years. In so much time it evolved and evolved and there are many governments using the method in practice however majority fails. How many communist examples can we count? How long did this ideology existed how much evolution did it go through? Perhaps Communism will never be a better system than Democracy but i think it is wrong to judge it by saying it fails when compared to Democracy. There are still Monarchic Nations out there and it has a practical history of more than 5000 years. And the first major experimental republic(ecluding city states of Greeks since they were actually Oligarchic)turned out to be an empire in the end after half a millenia of evolution. Facts tell me that Monarchy is the most solid government method now:S how can that be?

    In the end we come to conclusion of what the primary purpose of seasteading is; creating innovative government methods…

    #10505
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    All I said is that we need a Distributive Unanimocracy system. Distributive (or distributionism) means that the means of production are spread as widely as possible among the general populace, rather than being centralized under the control of the state (socialism) or a few large businesses or wealthy private individuals (capitalism). People will work better and more efficiently if they own their own business. This is a proven fact. In the context of seasteading, it makes a lot of sense, because of the low population and also of the high degree of dependency between the seasteaders. Example: A seastead of population 2500. I own a fishing business. It is on my best interest (and the whole community as well) to catch fish. You, Shouri, own a hydrogen production plant. you have to produce H2 so we can cook that fish, etc, etc. Why Unanimocracy? Because of the fact that in a unanimocracy a supermajority of votes is needed to pass a law, there will be less laws, therefore more freedom. Not only that, but too many laws in any given society are in general counterproductive for the economy. Less law, the better and more productive economy.

    I also questioned the “republic”… Is this really a priority? We will be lucky if in the next 10 years will have a 100 people seastead. How hard will be for 100 people to govern themselvs? Do they really need to call themselves,..”.The 100 People Republic” because otherwise they will be so disoriented or have an identity crisis and live in a permanent state of anarchy? We can sit here and talk for ever about how the future mega-seastead shud govern its 10 million seasteaders in A.D. 2180. But doing so wont help them at all. Instead, we shud concentrate on bringing ourseves together, build the first seastead, come up with some decent guidelines for our daily social interactions, and enjoy our freedom and die happy. Let the future generations inherit our seastead and let them deal with it.

    #10506
    Profile photo of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    That is the justification for the Republic! A ‘Distributive’ economy where ‘the means of production are spread as widely as possible among the general populace’ I believe will be a defacto reality in seasteading as it is now to a lesser extent in the Cruising Community. As for ‘Unanimocracy’, requiring a super-majority of votes to pass a law, any law, means that there will be NO LAWS, not less laws! On that Ocean, I think you give ‘The People’ way too much credit. Look at what ‘they’ve’ done in the country we live in! What ‘they’ are gonna’ do! ‘The People’ are morons! Republic: The Rule of Law. It provides a foundation for growth no matter when or how long that growth takes. Growth would make Democracy unmanageable and a unanimocracy impossible: too many people, too many different ideas and viewpoints. Under a properly constructed Republic however freedom, liberty and justice for all would be assured for all by the rule of law. How individual Vessels, Ships and Seastations (seasteads) function would be outside the jurisdiction of the Republic within the guidelines provided by the Constitution.

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    I’ve been in US for 25 years now, and yes, I see the mess! This is because, the decent People of this Nation (and by the way there are a lots of them out there) gave the WRONG people ( corrupt politicians, corporations, liers and thives, etc) to much leeway. And who are the RIGHT people? Decent, hard working, straight talking, truthfull, always there with a helping hand for their fellow human being, tolerant, educated,… Yes I do give them credit, if they can wake up one day, and decide to join the seasteading movement.

    I dont think that Unanimocracy will mean NO LAWS. My feeling is that will mean NO STUPID LAWS. Keep in mind that we are not talking here about millions of people. As I said, we will be lucky to have a 100 people seastead in the next 10 years! But lets say that will pull ourselves toghether from this lethargic existance and by 2030, THE SEASTEAD REPUBLIC (seeeeeeeee, I am already making concessions accepting the “Republic” gig) , pop. 2500, is up and running. Now governing 3500 souls is not rocket science, man…Do you think that those 2500 will ” find” a 80% majority (lets assume that number for a supermajority unanimocracy process) to pass a law that you cannot smoke pot ??, or another law that you cannot buy booze on Sunday before 1:00 pm ??, or you cannot fly a SEASTEAD REPUBLIC flag larger than 6’x4′ on top of your crib ?? or that the employees cleaning the SEASTEAD hull cannot have “visible” body piercings and tatoos??. I will stop here, the list is bigger than the seastead. The reverse of the coin is also true. Do you think that those 2500 will have a really hard time finding that 80% majority to pass a law that murder is a no-no ?? or rape ?? or child molesting ?? or treason ?? or arson ?? etc.

    If people are left alone, they will do a better capitalism (actually distributism) than most, and they will govern themselves far better any Government can do.

    #10508
    Profile photo of Shouri
    Shouri
    Participant

    I don’t think public should directly vote for the contents of the laws it is not that efficient. We should follow what Socrates says i guess. I am not saying there should be a caste system with classes who have different privilages but classes with different roles without any privilages are neccesary. Laws that administer interaction between each person should be defined and executed by philosophers(lawyers), psychologs(neurologists), sociologs(statists), laws that administer monetary matters should be defined and executed by economists etc. Each profession has more to say about their chosen expertise thus this increases efficiency. I do agree with your so called ‘Partnership Agreement’ this is what i have been advocating from the beginning. However what i’d like to see isn’t a such single company but multiple companies:

    Engineering Department: Infrastructure, Reverse Osmosis&Sewage Reprocess, Power Generation, Structural Engineering, Hydroponics, Aquaculture etc…(there should be many/each should be sub departments in this one i guess)

    Intelligence and Economics Department: IT, Economics, Trade, Administration of Wealth Distrubation etc… (Communication branch should be administered by both IE and ST due to it’s strategical value)

    Security and Transportation Department(free sub department of IE): Transportation, Security etc…

    Department of Health and Medicare:Medicare, Medical Research

    Education Department: Child Care, Elementary Studies, Academical Studies(together with the related department) etc…

    Administration Circle: Administration, Execution of Laws in general etc…

    Administration Circle is composed of highest success statistic owners of each sub-department plus expert administrator, philospher, sociolog…

    I am against people having different amount of shares in their respective companies instead administration circle should be responsible for monthly success statistics, and each individuals position and income shoud differ according to their success.

    Laziness can not be punished in landlubber societies mostly and i accept that being lazy isn’t a crime however, seasteading societies are somewhat different when compared to land societies reason is simply survival, a slacking personell can endanger the welfare of the whole society (or pose danger to nature). (for example: manfunction in power generation in an advanced society,0 a simple blackout means all other activities come to an halt or even endanger the survival of the community) Thus succes statistics can also be used to punish citizens(extended workhours up to 1-2 hours until next succes statistics come out perhaps)

    Each sub-department should vote for their representatives (candidates must be in top three in success statistics) and representatives should be transfered to Administrative Circle. Each sub-department can go to referandum(once a month) to change their representative and effectively return the former representative to their sub-department in his previous position in the sub-department prior to being representative.

    Wealth generated by the seastead community is pooled together and distrubuted according to succes statistics. My community consists of 128 people with each having 0.5% share in the seastead pool however their income might change to 0.4%-0.7% according to their success statistics and work hours. Economy should be desgined to accomodate a person to live comfortably with 0.2%. Excess amount of funds remaining in the pool are used for ArGe and maintainance of the seastead effectively destroying the need for a complex taxing system. If there is still excess funds remaining they shall be supervised by the Administrative Circle and shall be redirected to pool named ‘Emergency Funds’. Emergency funds should have a limit, once the limit is reached excess funds should be distrubuted amongst citizens equally (without statistics) as an extra income source. Limit of Emergency Funds: Enough capital to create another seastead community and evacuate citizens to new colony, this fund is not used for expansion but for emergency sitiuations like natural disasters.

    Each personell may willingly increase their workhours for 1-2 hours to effectively increase their income to a maximum of 0.7%. Regular working hour is 6 hours per day. Each citizen must fulfill 2000 hours of work. Each citizen has the right for a 1month payed vacation. However they may have unpayed vacations if they have already fulfilled their workhours (previously explained by increasing their workhours to 7-8 hours/day willingly they can fulfill the requirement earlier thus save money for their vacation)

    Am i off topic or what o.o anyways you guys alrady know how my ideas are about these matter already i guess. Comments?

    #10510
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    you would let somebody else vote and decide how YOU should interact with the other members of community ?? Or let sombody else decide how YOU should administer your hard earned money ?? You must be kidding,…Now, all this “departments” you dream of creating, but in fact YOU have no control of (since YOU cannot vote) will serve what?? or better said whom?? The individual, in your society, has no right to say and decide anything since the “philosophers (lawyers??)” and the “economists” are doing that for him/her. On top of that, the “Departmental Bureaucracy” created by,..well, not the individual but the same philosophers and economists will tell everybody what to do.

    So basicaly, you dream of creating a Nomenklatura that controls everything and everybody. Well, Big Brother Shouri, thanx, but I’ll PASS on that!.

    #10511
    Profile photo of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    Plato’s Republic was a theoretical construct that even Plato recognized couldn’t work… The feudal society of pre-Perry Japan came close but no cigar! Systems like this ignore the fact that human beings ARE human beings. At least under the Soviet system, someone may not have wanted to be a doctor, scientist or engineer but if you had the brains you didn’t HAVE to be a ditch digger! “From each according to his ability, to each according to his [work]” and you mention the lazy (and might I add worthless and weak), crime and punishment… In a nut shell Shouri, you’ve stated why the utopian mega structures depicted on this site and others cannot and will not work! What are you going to do with them? You can’t make anyone do anything if they really don’t want to and are will to accept the consequences of that act. Except kill them…?

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Profile photo of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    The RIGHT people? Decent, hard working, straight talking, truth full, always there with a helping hand for their fellow human being, tolerant and educated. Hell, I’d give them credit too, if they woke up one day, and decided to join the seasteading movement! Unfortunately, those same good people betrayed the promise of liberty and cast aside the dream of freedom for the illusion of a gilded cage! The chains of socialist slavery are literally being clamped on us all and when the pin is driven home there will be no escape for any of us! 100 people in ten years? Too little too late…

    OK, that’s too pessimistic but still the undead in Arlington are stirring…

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Profile photo of Shouri
    Shouri
    Participant

    No i wasn’t talking about someone else voting for me :S… I wasn’t telling you that you can not spend your own money wth..have you even read what i wrote? :S And as for how i should interact with another individual yes a professional knows better than me about how i should do that actually that is why we have sociology and psychology to begin with… Socrates and Plato are different individuals and i wasn’t talking about Plato’s Republic… I used the name Socrates since i advocate his idea of using a caste system similar to the one he proposed. I can not fight as good as a soldier, i can not succesfully carry out a surgery like a doc does etc. what makes you think i can interact with another person better than a psycholog(or an escort perhaps)? Thing is the system i proposed simply makes the ‘earning’ part easy so it is no more hard earned money, everyone has equal opportunity earn money if he/she works. And seriously what part gives you the idea that you can not spend your money anyways? :S

    I was expecting people to misunderstand stuff written since it is too long but still i wasn’t expecting such misunderstandings

    Btw departments above were simply examples, and every citizen is infact a member of a department. You see each department is also a company (remember i said i agree about your partnership agreement to some degree?) so when i said sub-departments choose their representatives i actually meant every citizen votes difference is:

    Let’s say my profession is IT and my sub-department is Intellgence. The representative chosen from my department with my and my fellow workmates’ votes is responsible from intelligence when he enters Administration Circle. It is only natural that i can not vote for a representative responsible from economics, why? cos it is not my profession.

    System i was talking about simply says leave professionals job to professionals, it is so similar to your idea of leaving economy to bussiness owners.

    As for individuals who slack off repeatedly, if they continue to ignore their jobs it is proof they are irrational, since this system is not a money trap trying to make money with their work, it is a system to increase efficiency to maximum so that his income increases as he works harder. No one expects you to work hard, you are just required to work for 6 hours per day since it is your right to work according to UHDR and you are payed for your work decently however you are payed better if you work harder or longer it is simple logic… anyways if any citizen ignores his work for 2 consecutive months, we can conclude that he has a mental problem since he is endangering the system which protects the prosperity of public thus he is subject to psychological treatment, ofcourse he might reject the offer than his 0.5% share in seastead +emergency fund/128 are funded back to him in any currency he/she wants and he leaves the seastead. However don’t put this in same shoes with exile he can come again as a citizen or a tourist, reason he has to leave is we are not on land but on sea, seastead can not sustain anyone who doesn’t want to work.

    I gave simple numbers(aren’t studied numbers however they show us how it will work good enough), they are far better working conditions than you may find in today’s world. If you think otherwise i will have to ask you to calculate

    0.5% share in seastead x 128= 64% of seastead’s shares belongs to citizens however that doesn’t mean 64% of income is distrubuted to them according to succes statistics the percentage of monthly gain distrubuted to citizens is between 51,2%-89,6% of the total monthly income of seastead and the remainder isn’t tax it is used for seastead itself making life easier and safer for citizens, also some funds are directed to ‘Emergency Funds’ and this fund pool has a limit also you can withdraw 1/128 of ‘Emergency Fund’ if you ever want to leave the seastead…

    geez…what makes it so hard to understand :S

    #10515
    Profile photo of Shouri
    Shouri
    Participant

    Gilded cage? We are living material bodies which makes us subject to laws of physics. We were living in nature individually and we were subject to laws of nature. We decided to live in packs since it was easier to survive in nature then we became subjects to the strongest members rule. We then created societies and simply found out that there must be a set of rules in every society and we’ve set our own rules. To summarize we created our own laws instead of nature, did we do something good? Well we don’t die after a simple mistake so yes i think it is success, i am happy to be alive you know. If we weren’t happy with what we have done we would be back toliving like hermits but here we are…Rules are a bother? yes they are, we call it ‘necessary evil’. There should be minimum set of laws? well yes that sounds good but you know a small society can be handled with a small set of laws but a big society can not be as the population increases the interaction between individuals and administration becomes more complex, there rises the need for a more complex set of laws for a more complex society. Then why bother we aren’t a big society in a seastead? Yes you got a point there however we aren’t doing this to stay small right? Afterall people do reproduce and prosperity do attract immigrants. So why don’t we start off with a small set of laws and expand it in the process of growing? Sounds easier yeah but you know every society did the same and the result is people like us looking for new societies. People tend to warp the legal system to serve their personal agendas this is a part of what we call corruption and we don’t want that, that is why we must create a set of laws that can accomodate the needs of a megasociety in the beggining and limit the changes it can go through in the beggining, this way corruption will be minimized and when we land on this new country we’ll know what we will expect, there won’t be unexpected laws popping out and stealing/limiting our rights/freedom further this is what we call ‘stability’ and any human being with decent mental health likes stability. I think Universal Human Rights Declaration is just great, i really believe in every single article it has a system fully compatitable with it is simply great however i can not see a single nation showing full admission to UHRD what i am trying to do was simply give it a form. I don’t understand why but people think i am an authoritarian but i am sure my ideals are 100% compatitable with UHRD and i haven’t yet seen a constitution 100% compatitable so far.

    To make it clear i am not unhappy with republic, democracy, communism or even monarchy or oligarchy…What i am unhappy with is corruption. Any system without corruption works out fine and this is a fact. Corruption is born from mankind’s greed and you can not simply destroy it by simply saying ‘you are free to do whatever you like’ and if you do the opposite and put people under firm authoritarian rule they will simply revolt unless they are given freedom and happiness to a certain degree. this what i am trying to understand, that ‘certain’ i am trying to understand the amount needed and i am not trying to understand the minimum but the maximum amount.

    A superior class doesn’t exist in the system i proposed but harder working people do exist. You may ask what Administrative Circle is then…(name was just a name but i am going with it, AC)it is a circle composed of highest working individuals, so would anyone else in the society get unhappy cos they earn a bit less from AC? Ofcourse they earn more it is simply because they work more! Anyonelse has the opportunity to earn as much and luck doesn’t have a role in it! You don’t have to be someone’s relative, you don’t have to be born rich, society measures your worth only by how much and how hard you work isn’t this simply fair? :S

    #10521
    Profile photo of OceanPhoenix
    OceanPhoenix
    Participant
    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    This is when

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    I know that the USSR was a perfect example of when it goes wrong. The idealism behind it is honourable enough, but in reality, there is always some nutter dictator like Stalin, as you pointed out. Lenin was dodgy, even though it is my opinion that he believed his cause was the right one, and that he was woefully mistaken, but even he did not trust Stalin. he even (apparently) told his associates not to allow Stalin to take charge when he died. So what did they do?

    I have nothing against you but I must voice my dislike of your proposed system. I for one could not be content with such a fragile balance between harmony and corruption.

    #10522
    Profile photo of OceanPhoenix
    OceanPhoenix
    Participant

    OceanPhoenix wrote:
    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    This is when

    [quote=OCEANOPOLIS

    And what do you know about the so called “communism”?

    I know that the USSR was a perfect example of when it goes wrong. The idealism behind it is honourable enough, but in reality, there is always some nutter dictator like Stalin, as you pointed out. Lenin was dodgy, even though it is my opinion that he believed his cause was the right one, and that he was woefully mistaken, but even he did not trust Stalin. he even (apparently) told his associates not to allow Stalin to take charge when he died. So what did they do?

    I have nothing against you but I must voice my dislike of your proposed system. I for one could not be content with such a fragile balance between harmony and corruption.

    #10523
    Profile photo of OceanPhoenix
    OceanPhoenix
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    This is when

    [quote=OCEANOPOLIS

    And what do you know about the so called “communism”?

    I know that the USSR was a perfect example of when it goes wrong. The idealism behind it is honourable enough, but in reality, there is always some nutter dictator like Stalin, as you pointed out. Lenin was dodgy, even though it is my opinion that he believed his cause was the right one, and that he was woefully mistaken, but even he did not trust Stalin. he even (apparently) told his associates not to allow Stalin to take charge when he died. So what did they do?

    I have nothing against you but I must voice my dislike of your proposed system. I for one could not be content with such a fragile balance between harmony and corruption.

    “You can always count on Americans to do the right thing – after they’ve tried everything else.”

    Winston Churchill – British Prime Minister 1940-1945 1951-1955

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