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Unexpensive electricity

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This topic contains 15 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Morganism Morganism 2 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 16 total)
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  • #1722
    Profile photo of thelegendaryfrog
    thelegendaryfrog
    Participant

    Hi everyone, this is my first post and I’d like to contribute with something helpful for seasteading. I am talking about the electrical retort system invented by Hilliary Eldridge around 1898 (patent us603058). With an electrical arc it ionizes and dissociates water into its constituents, and it uses 350 Watts to produce a hydrogen mixture in real time, which of course can be used to run a generator, at least a 3.7 kWatts one.

    I can provide the links to references, proof of concept and experiments if anyone is interested. Since the spam filter had other plans.

    #16642
    Profile photo of Ken Sims
    Ken Sims
    Keymaster
    thelegendaryfrog wrote:
    Since the spam filter had other plans.

    I see in the log where the spam filter was giving you a hard time. I gave it a good smack up side the head.

    Try to post some of your links as a comment in this thread.

    Ken
    Volunteer admin and primary spamfighter

    #16645
    Profile photo of thelegendaryfrog
    thelegendaryfrog
    Participant

    Thank you lol it just wouldn’t let me post any links, and after I removed the links the same message was a no go. So finally here are the links concerning the electrical retort.

    First here’s the proof of concept using carbon electrodes (could be replaced with tungsten rods to minimize corrosion):
    jlnlabs.online.fr/bingofuel/html/aquagen.htm

    A paper on the above concept:

    http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/9805031

    A more elaborate reactor:

    jlnlabs.online.fr/bingofuel/html/bfr10.htm

    And here running a 5HP generator:

    jlnlabs.online.fr/bingofuel/html/bfr5hpgen.htm

    -HN

    #16650

    sounds kind of you discovered the perpetuum mobile – you need to understand basic physics especially the laws of thermodynamics to check out why this can not work…here – it is basicly impossible to create energy out of nothing. You can not put in a bit of energy and get out much more energy at the end… nice idea that kept busy great minds during centuries…

    Wil

    #16652
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    The Naudin site has a lot of interesting experiments in it, including electrostatic lifters and cold fusion. It would require some kind of nuclear process to put out more energy than consumed, or the chemical consumption of electrode as well as the water.

    #16654
    Profile photo of thelegendaryfrog
    thelegendaryfrog
    Participant

    sounds kind of you discovered the perpetuum mobile

    This is not perpetual motion, far from it, the energy is clearly provided by the hydrogen in the water, it is already there, with an electrical arc you’re simply breaking up the water so that it is usable as a fuel. Much in the same way the digestive system breaks up complex molecules into usable simpler ones. The Water or H2O molecule has weak covalent bonds, of 492.215 kJ/mol or an energy of 2.270×10-22 Watts per particle which of course can be easily broken by a 350 Watts ionizing arc.

    And of course you can always do the very simple proof of concept experiment.

    It would require some kind of nuclear process to put out more energy than consumed

    We have two different processes here, first the ionization and dissociation of water, and then the combustion of hydrogen that was not dissociated by the ionization.

    -HN

    #16657
    Profile photo of Kaseijin
    Kaseijin
    Participant

    the energy is clearly provided by the hydrogen in the water, it is already there, with an electrical arc you’re simply breaking up the water so that it is usable as a fuel.
    That would be a perpetuum mobile, however it is not what this system does.
    Electrical retort system converts carbon and water to carbon monoxide and hydrogen. So it is a carbon power plant, but unlike usual coal burning you use water instead of oxygen and you can use it to produce hydrogen. Also it seems that it can be easily turned on/off and can work well on small scale, so if you want to power a seastead by burning carbon, it may be better than an oven.
    #16661
    Profile photo of thelegendaryfrog
    thelegendaryfrog
    Participant

    Kaseijin wrote:
    That would be a perpetuum mobile

    How that would be a perpetuum mobile? If the dissociation of hydrogen/oxygen bonds in water molecules requires less energy than the energy released in the combustion of hydrogen.

    Kaseijin wrote:
    Electrical retort system converts carbon and water to carbon monoxide and hydrogen. So it is a carbon power plant

    Using carbon rods you still have 46.483% of hydrogen in the gas mixture, and 38.370% of carbon monoxide being generated from the rods in the reaction. You could produce the electrical arc using a more resistant and better conducting metal rods, like tungsten ones.

    #16663
    Profile photo of thelegendaryfrog
    thelegendaryfrog
    Participant

    Kaseijin wrote:
    but unlike usual coal burning you use water instead of oxygen and you can use it to produce hydrogen.

    BTW ionization is not combustion, you can’t say that it uses water instead of oxygen because you’re not igniting the carbon with the water. In ionization you’re increasing the electrical potential so that the valence electrons absorb the increased energy to break free from the electric potential barrier that held them in place, therefore breaking the covalent bond.

    #16666
    Profile photo of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    so how do you use the hydrogen?

    can ionize water to produce oxygen and hydrogen with a simple battery and wire, through a saline solution.

    but to convert the oxyhydrogen back are you using a fuel cell,

    or some kind of combustion engine?

    btw, a 5-hp electric engine can run at many inputs, 5-hp is simply it’s max.

    We with You are a Network, our goal to become technologically-enabled reproducible family communities. http://weyounet.info

    #16675
    Profile photo of thelegendaryfrog
    thelegendaryfrog
    Participant

    Elspru, either we can store the hydrogen mixture or consume it on the go using a small reactor to feed an engine from a water container, with the latter being safer. Do you know what is the minimun input to run a 5hp engine?

    The electric retort is similar to electrolysis, but why use a low power and an ionic solution when one can rapidly ionize the water with an electrical arc.

    -HN

    #16678
    Profile photo of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    Elspru, either we can store the hydrogen mixture or consume it on the go using a small reactor to feed an engine from a water container, with the latter being safer. Do you know what is the minimun input to run a 5hp engine?

    should be in the instruction manual.

    The electric retort is similar to electrolysis, but why use a low power and an ionic solution when one can rapidly ionize the water with an electrical arc.

    -HN

    it’s cheaper to use low power solutions.

    in any case, the conversion inefficiencies imply you’ll be getting less energy that you put in.

    Considering how hard to store, and relatively useless hydrogen is, I’d be much more impressed if you figured out how to make sugars from water and air like plants do. Now that would be something, you could drink your fuel for sustenance hahaha.

    We with You are a Network, our goal to become technologically-enabled reproducible family communities. http://weyounet.info

    #16772
    Profile photo of tusavision
    tusavision
    Participant

    Internal combustion engines are like 30% efficient. Electrolysis is right there as well. You might recover <10% of the energy you invested in breaking the hydrogen bonds.

    Entropy means shit goes to it’s lowest potential energy. That’s why there’s so much fucking water on this planet. A supernova and a red dwarf had a 3 way and water was the result.

    Water is the corpse of energy, not a fuel source.

    Don’t take my word for it, convert a gas generator to hydrogen, start with a volume of hydrogen gas and use the generator to make more. Put a jimmy hat over a mason jar and plump the intake and exhaust to the hydrogen bubble. Give it some DC go juice and watch in amazement as your hydrogen fuel get’s consumed making water and heat.

    #16788
    Profile photo of Sam7
    Sam7
    Participant

    Ellmer, What if you could produce the energy with 95% efcientcy? Would that work ?

    #16791

    sam, i don’t know all this sounds complicate compared to the established ways of oceanic energy harvest like wind turbines, pelamis, and current turbines.

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