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Starting your Military

Home Forums Community Dreaming / Crazy Ideas / Speculation Starting your Military

This topic contains 142 replies, has 28 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of elspru elspru 4 years ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 143 total)
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  • #7800
    Avatar of Eelco
    Eelco
    Participant

    Carl wrote:

    For a start-up seastead I would settle for not prohibiting my inhabitants from providing their own defense. And if somewhere down the line there appears security issues that personal weapons or perhaps an ad-hoc militia cannot cope with, then perhaps hiring a security company would be the next step.

    I think grandiose “national defense” schemes will be a waste of money. A seastead is bound to be at the mercy of the guys with attack submarines and missiles for the forseeable future. My advice is to accept this as part of life and spend your money on something more productive. :-)

    Very much agreed.

    Initially, there is no need to discuss this issue, as a professional army is not a possibility as a matter of scale.

    A militia will do fine to deter pirates. If we ever need a professional military, i dont know; i hope not. See how well the largest army in the world is doing against a bunch of guys with AK’s who at least believe in what they fight for.

    #7803
    Avatar of horton
    horton
    Participant

    Me: Don’t force anybody to pay for something they don’t believe in.

    The few militants here: Force other people to pay for what I believe in. Don’t make me pay for their beliefs.

    Of course I doubt any militant can understand this concept. As Isaac Asimov has said “violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.” You have to question people who think that cleaning a gun is somehow intellectually challanging.

    As Jethro on the BHBs would say, “I dun finished the sixth grade. Yall wouldn’t be sayin that about long division if ya ever been confronted with it.”

    #7805
    Avatar of libertariandoc
    libertariandoc
    Participant

    horton wrote:

    Me: Don’t force anybody to pay for something they don’t believe in.

    The few militants here: Force other people to pay for what I believe in. Don’t make me pay for their beliefs.

    Of course I doubt any militant can understand this concept. As Isaac Asimov has said “violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.” You have to question people who think that cleaning a gun is somehow intellectually challanging.

    As Jethro on the BHBs would say, “I dun finished the sixth grade. Yall wouldn’t be sayin that about long division if ya ever been confronted with it.”

    OK, so you have your undefended seastead, and we’ll have one that is defended. We’ll see who is still floating in 10 years…

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I won’t be wronged. I won’t be insulted. I won’t be laid a-hand on. I don’t do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.

    #7807
    Avatar of horton
    horton
    Participant

    MiitaryWelfareStateDoc, I wasn’t commenting on seasteads. Seasteads are a proposed solution to the insanity that you seem to want to promote. I’ll be happy if any Seastead has begun to float in 10 years. We’re all on dry land right now and are all forced to deal with the consequences of insane political idealogies.

    My guess is that, as people here have suggested, professional militaries will not be necessary for seasteads. Even if they are, the funding for them will be 100% consentual.

    #7813
    Avatar of xns
    xns
    Participant

    Whew, I’ve created a 4 page monster thread :p

    Anyway, I think Smith’s point is getting taken very out-of-context. If we’d just condense it to “Better trained militaries are more effective than badly trained ones” then I think we can all agree on that. And speaking as someone who’d spent 2 years in the army training recruits, HOW said militaries are trained is beyond most of the forum population and not what I’d intended to discuss.

    What I’d wanted to address were;

    1) Command Rape
    - Duh… Once you remove both individuals from an environment where the commander has absolute control(Off-base accomodations, influx of non-regular personnel) you make it EXTREMELY difficult for this to take place.

    2) Disconnection from Non-Military Society
    - Anyone who’s ever enlisted before will understand what I’m saying. Remember that really (*&^%$ guy in your section/squad? And how you took all your frustration out on him? And if was only when you got out of camp/base that you realized how mean you were? As for those who don’t understand watch “Buffalo Soldiers”

    3) Military as welfare
    - It’s a common in Singapore to find individuals of extremely low intellect as mid-ranked NCOs in our army. Regulars mind you, who are overweight, can’t shoot straight or operate equipment without a manual.

    4) Minority Discrimination
    - Basically the army version of gay bashing. Military service seems to appeal to certain kinds of individuals. The rare few are patriots who have a desire to excel and protect their homes, then there’s the gung-ho manly man who’s out to prove his manly-ness and compensate for inadequacies by picking on anyone he/she can get his hands on.

    So having looked at most of the posts, I find myself leaning towards a small, elite regular unit, kept on a short least(militarily anyway) backed with a large pool of volunteers who receive weekly training.

    #7815
    Avatar of Alan
    Alan
    Participant

    i_is_j_smith wrote:
    You want to talk about learning from history. In the American Revolutionary War, the British were not defeated by militia hiding in the woods and using cover. They won because Von Steuben trained them to fight like the British…in formation with volley fire. After Valley Forge he put a single standard in place, trained the men over and over in large-scale drill, and turned them into PROFESSIONAL soldiers. They showed how well they had learned at Monmouth.

    Actually, the British were defeated largely by militia. It was the Southern campaign that finally did them in, and although the British won almost every major battle and held all their strong points, they couldn’t hold the countryside because the militia was out there, often in groups of two or three, ready to shoot down any British soldier who went outside his fortifications to gather food or firewood. (Hmm. Sound familiar? Cough-Iraq-cough.)

    Of course, the militia also performed well at Eutaw Springs in a set battle, and we all know about the over mountain men who wiped out Ferguson’s command at King’s Mountain, so sometimes the militia performed pretty well in traditional battles – but it was really their usefulness in denying territory that won the war.

    You do have a point about the need for some professional soldiers, but you underestimate the militia at your own risk.

    Of course, much of this will soon be obsolete as Artificial Intelligence overshadows the Natural sort.

    #7831
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    “Better trained militaries are more effective than badly trained ones

    Exactly. But I will go even further than this, and say that you need professional militaries rather than call-on-when-needed militia. By professional military I mean one composed of soldiers who perform their duties on a full-time basis. They don’t just train on the weekends or once every few months. Their job is to defend the seastead, and they train to perform this job constantly.

    Some people’s libertarian ideals might force them to reject such a system, but that doesn’t make it less effective or true.

    leaning towards a small, elite regular unit,

    Yep, but I doubt you would need the backing of volunteers…they just fuck it up for the professionals. The threats that any seastead will have to deal with should easily be handled by a small, elite, heavily-armed, rapid reaction force.

    #7829
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    Actually, the British were defeated largely by militia.

    I didn’t say they weren’t defeated by militia. They were defeated by militia…but a militia that was trained by a Prussian into using the same military drill that the British were using.

    Yes, there were groups of soldiers that employed harrying techniques…popping off shots from the treeline and then running away. But those techniques didn’t win the war. The war was won by groups of soldiers who had been trained to fight as cohesive units.

    Even Kings Mountain, which isn’t really a good example because it didn’t have any British forces involved and the Loyalist commander was a coward and idiot, showed how well-trained soldiers could fight better than rag-tag groups of untrained men with guns. It was a set battle that the Loyalists should have won….who performs bayonet charges DOWN a hill when you have a superior defensive position and numerical advantage?

    I don’t know what you mean by Artificial Intelligence….will future seasteads be protected by armed robots?

    EDIT: Actually, the war was won by the French. But that’s not really what we are discussing so I simplified things. Just wanted to put that out there.

    #7832
    Avatar of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    You sure did! And the points you wanted to have addressed aren’t too clear either…

    Smitty, Horton: To truly have justified contempt for something rather than dis-informed opinions you have to experience it first hand. Why don’t you join the ‘All Volunteer Force’, step up and be counted defending our country and your way of life. Then come on back and tell me/us about the ‘morons’…

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    Then come on back and tell me/us about the ‘morons’

    Dude, you should go back and read my posts better before you lump me with Horton and his lack of respect for the skills of professional soldiers.

    defending our country and your way of life.

    From what?

    #7835
    Avatar of GreenGestalt
    GreenGestalt
    Participant

    War is an obcenisty.

    It is Cain’s sin repeated and magnified.

    It is the greatest polluter and waster of all.

    We won’t need and should never seek an “Army”, even when (if) our movement manages to reach a size it can call itself a “Confederated Nation-State”.

    Of course, I’m for reasonable arms and numbers to be a deterrant to Pirates should they attack us. Although I like pirates if they aren’t attacking me and depending on the region and politics when I start this, a “Pirate” might well become a nice tribe member. Most present pirates, btw, from Somalia are ex-fishermen who saw their livelihood destroyed by first a legion of “Drift Net” trawlers then toxic waste dumping. A Somali pirate would love being part of a seasteading “Tribe” of a large boat or floating concrete island with terraced gardens and nets below for aquaculture.

    The concern of “Warfare” with the larger nation states is another concern. First and foremost, an “Army” is a waste of time.

    In Warfare:

    You bring a knife to a fistfight.

    You bring a gun to a kife fight.

    And to a gunfight you bring a tank.

    Warfare is not about one “Heroic” army fighting another “Villanous” one, that’s a lie. War is simply throwing more resources (lives, materials, energy) at another and trying to outdo your enemy. Even if we team up and make an awesome navy where they are all Navy Seal level psycho killers and have a bunch of fancy boats with rocket launchers, another real size country (Mainly the US, but others also) would just have bomber drop bombs on them.

    Therefore, we work on the counter-rules to warfare:

    You learn martial arts to counter the knife wielder.

    You learn geurilla tactics to counter the gun fighter.

    You hide and plant IEDs to counter the tank.

    Accept that the “Enemy” will have far more raw firepower to attack us and work around it. The best M-16 with grenade launcher weilded by the best trained soldier is useless if someone impales him from a hidden pit or blows him up with an IED or even an unexploded cluster bomblet turned into a cheap landmine. The best army in the world is useless if it cannot be launched.

    The initial warfare should be waged by all of us immediately as we are working now and as we start out ‘steads; Propaganda. We promote our vision as one of love and peace and that isn’t a lie. I don’t want to make a “World Superstate” I want to relax on a self-made island with some cute brown girls and have fun with music and science. But I fear that the “Controllers” will never leave anyone who wants to live instead of being alive alone. The first wave is the “Oseanik” vision, the true “Embracing of the Age of Aquarius” and the drive to create independant tribes on the waves, but in a confederation. This is “The planting of the seed”.

    Propaganda is used to gain more participants and use the media and the public opinion to work for us.

    The second and most important part is the “Trade” aspect combined with the political game. We seek UN recognition ASAP, including even budgeting 25% more for our ‘steads so we can afford the materials to build others as ‘gifts’ or rather ‘exchanges’. Island nations are sinking and getting scared, make them some ‘steads in exchange for going along wth our plans. It’s a simple plan, we build our own islands where we answer to nobody but our tribe members. Above that, we support others who share the same vision. Keep the forces of control away for now. And we plan for the future.

    There are a lot of ships going through the Pacific and Indian oceans. Floating islands and re-claimed cargo ships would make nice “Along the way” stops. Everything from a “Convienience store to a Casino/brothel”. We’d form an “Alternate” and/or “Anti” economy. I’m against “Capitalism” as we know it, but I am all for “Trade”. Something is worth what you can get another to pay for it. Anything is worth nothing unless value is placed in it. There is no true wealth beyond man’s need. Trading is theiving unless it is barter. “Capitalists” agree with everything I’ve said about trade, they just tell lies and hide behind governments to get others to accept the face value of what they use. We’ll work to produce things, trade for profit, but not allow ourselves to become slaves to dollars, to essentially always living off the work or mercy of another as is in the countries we are escaping.

    At this stage we step up our propaganda. I’m for doing things like making “Jellyfish Vaccums” since due to overfishing the Jellyfish are poised to take over the oceans. A japanese researcher has found how to convert them into an edible product. I don’t think I’d want to eat it, but it could be used to feed “Aquacuture” projects. Also we work to re-establish natural fisheries destroyed by drift net fishing and make “Barriers” and “Cutter Bots” to deter future harvest of this sort.

    We should also work on ways to “Filter” out the plastic from the “Garbage Patches”. I am really, REALLY scared at what all that atomized plasitc might be doing. Perhaps we’ll be able to convert the plastic to foodstuff. At least it will be nice “Filler” space for more SeaSteads, blocks of plastic to provide negative structure to keep things floating.

    These things we do, even though they are for primarily our own good (food for aquaculutre and to protect aquaculture from poison and jellyfish eating them) we propagandize as “See!? We are cleaning the oceans for the rest of the world! Do you want the oceans to become nothing but an algae filled swamp full of jellyfish?” We might even get some support from the big corporations (working out reasonable “Line” over trading philosiphy) to help us build these on huge scales (and more seaSteads) and them dodge taxes and fines for past behavior.

    The third stage will be when (if) we get big enough to assert ourselves as a true world nation state. I anticipate the conflict will come over the space elevator. A large, city-sized floating platform that is anchored at exactly the equator and provide the infastructure for it.

    How do we stop any large nation state from taking it over? Gun to a knife fight. Oseana’s best resource will be technology and intelligence and outright brutal cunning. Which works better, a weapon that can destroy a city and technology that can see that city, or a weapon that could do little more than “Cutting a throat” but also it could see that throat anywhere in the world? We won’t need to seek nukes or bioweapons. We’d simply work on something far more reaching and far more precise that was on a different tangent than what “Conventional Warfare” is now. Deterrants for “Underwater demolitions experts” and ships and subs are a plus.

    Now, I’m not going to post any “Plan B” ideas here, and I advise against anyone posting their ideas. Keep them in your head and save them for the “Second Stage” to prepare for “Oseanik Assertion” third stage.

    And I’ll say this to any “Intelligence” or other agency monitoring this: “Leave us alone and we will be at peace. We seek peace, we want peace. For God’s sake, we are literally willing to live on discarded ships and big rafts on the Ocean itself to gain freedom, you should respect that. Leave us alone and we won’t ever seek to hurt you, even if we get big enough to be a superpower, it’ll be in our constitution. We won’t grab nukes, we won’t work on bioweapons, and in helping ourselves survive we’ll probably help the Oceans ecology. We might do stuff on our own ‘steads that are “Illegal” in other parts, live with it. We won’t be doing “Big” things like supplying terrorists to attack the USA, we won’t need that “SH-T” so we won’t spread it. Also, if we get big and America is having trouble but has never attacked us or harassed us, we WILL help America or other countries as best we can. (Technology, surplus food, advice at restoring fisheries and aquaculture technology) A lot of our people will be “Expatriates” from a lot of countries, we will want to be friends, to still be able to visit and see our relatives. (I can stand “Name Calling” and that’s only fair since I’ve used plenty)”

    #7836
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    It looks like this shud have been an underground movment from the start, man….X, you did open the Pandora’s box dude. WE ARE DOOMED.

    #7888
    Avatar of Alan
    Alan
    Participant

    i_is_j_smith wrote:
    I didn’t say they weren’t defeated by militia. They were defeated by militia…but a militia that was trained by a Prussian into using the same military drill that the British were using.

    I’m pretty sure von Steuben never made it to Tennessee, or even South Carolina. I doubt his drills taught a damn thing to the overmountain men or the men who followed Marion or Sumter.

    The war IN THE NORTHERN COLONIES was won by groups of soldiers who had been trained to fight as cohesive units.

    There. Fixed that for you.

    Of course, there were regulars in the southern colonies too. That force was pretty much obliterated with the fall of Charleston, at which point the militia bled the British forces dry. Those militia were, of course, also quite capable of fighting as cohesive units, but generally did so in a guerilla campaign – with some exceptions such as Eutaw Springs.

    Even Kings Mountain, which isn’t really a good example because it didn’t have any British forces involved and the Loyalist commander was a coward and idiot, showed how well-trained soldiers could fight better than rag-tag groups of untrained men with guns.

    I have never heard Major Patrick Ferguson (who was Scottish) called either a coward or an idiot, and I am surprised that you would do so.

    I don’t know what you mean by Artificial Intelligence….will future seasteads be protected by armed robots?

    That was my point – that we are discussing how to win the last war, not the next. Still, some things remain the same – it is difficult for anyone to control a populace that detests them.

    #7902
    Avatar of SailorTrash
    SailorTrash
    Participant

    I think a lot of what is being discussed here is overkill. Seasteaders, as a community, don’t need a professional military. I’d suggest rather the armed volunteer militia idea, perhaps with a few full-time volunteer deputies, or community sheriffs, for basic peacekeeping, law enforcement, and if necessary piracy suppression. In the case of organized pirates, the deputies and sheriffs would act as community organizers to rally and mobilize the militia.

    The difference, and it’s small but vital, is that such people would be a part of, and a friend of, the community, as opposed to potentially dangerous armed professionals that are apart from the Seasteading community. Yes, if absolutely necessary a professional warrior-type can be necessary, but usually not. It’s my hope that a few members of the community have the proper military skillset already–I’m not one of them, but I’m not totally clueless either.

    My first point is this: On the very rare occasion that organized bands of pirates attack, yes, you want Rambo manning the guns. But the other 99.99% of the time, when the community is just cruising happily along and all is well, I’d rather have Sheriff Andy keeping watch. Keeping watch, sharing coffee, and being a part of the community.

    My background? Former Navy–electronics tech, nothing exciting like SEAL or TopGun Maverick. But I’m an expert marksman, I have arms aboard our ship, and both my wife and I know how to use them properly (without being morons, even!). I’ve also got some basic experience with close-quarter knife-fighting, useful aboard a tiny sailboat. That’s it, no fantastic special forces magic, no law-enforcement experience, just an odd-but-average Joe. And anywhere Katie and I stop, we’ll be happy to stand a balls-to-four watch–armed or unarmed, community’s choice–in exchange for fresh water and a pound of limes.

    But my next point is this: When my wife and I are a part of the Seasteading community–albeit more like travelling merchants and pony express–I’m not interested in how well-armed the community Rambo is; I’m interested in how friendly Sheriff Andy is. If I pull up to a smiling bunch of Seasteaders, I’m gonna stop, hang out, and help out. If I’m being tracked by a gun muzzle as I’m sailing up…I’m sailing on.

    #7912
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    overkill

    I think the problem is that when I say “professional military” people immediately assume a large, expensive army like what the U.S. has. It doesn’t have to be that way. On a seastead of a few hundred people you would only need a dozen or two people making up this “professional military”. The point is not how big it is…the point is that the people in this group make defending the seastead their full-time job. So it doesn’t have to be overkill.

    such people would be a part of, and a friend of, the community

    These full-time soldiers would be just as much a part of the community as the full-time aquaculturists or the full-time IT technicians. Why do they have to be any different from anyone else on the seastead? They perform a vital job in the community…defending it from physical attack…just as the IT technicians keep the seastead-wide wireless network up and the aquaculture technicians keep everyone fed. Just because they carry guns instead of punchdown tools or fishing nets doesn’t make them social pariahs.

    Most of the time you will have Sheriff Andy watching over things. But when the poop hits the spinning blades he has a well-armed, well-trained, cohesive defense force at his disposal and can direct it as needed. You won’t have to worry about if your machine gunner is currently underwater checking her oyster nets and can’t hear the warning siren. You don’t have to freak out because your only two snipers are fishing several miles away. With a militia system the defense of the seastead is a secondary duty. I don’t want my data infrastructure to be secondary. I don’t want my water purification to be secondary. So why would I want my defense to be secondary?

    And just because you have a full-time defense force doesn’t mean every person who pulls up in a yacht will be greeted by gun muzzles pointed by cigar-chomping Rambos with itchy trigger fingers.

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