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Stadion Seastead, plate seastead, deeploaded seastead

Home Forums Archive Structure Designs Stadion Seastead, plate seastead, deeploaded seastead

This topic contains 61 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of ellmer - http://yook3.com ellmer – http://yook3.com 2 years, 8 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 62 total)
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  • #12918
    Profile photo of Alan
    Alan
    Participant

    Langford wrote:
    Considering the long term structural stability along the wants and needs of the residents. (They dont need a sea view, but they will sure as hell want it).

    Sea views along the shore are wonderful … but only because they are along the shore. The waves breaking on the rocks, the seagulls overhead, the shoreline itself – the contrast of ocean and land.

    Sea views at sea are boring. I was just recently on a cruise ship and – very boring views at sea. People only paid attention to the views when we were near land.

    Along similar lines, I worked for 3 months at the South Pole. The ice never changes. It’s very boring. The buildings helped a little, but I really came to appreciate clouds, because they were the only things that ever changed.

    So sea views are not very important. Residents will much prefer the interior “courtyard” view. Of course, they will also want plenty of sunshine and fresh air, but this can be accomplished with the deeploaded structure concept.

    #12919
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    On second thoughts, while I still “don’t see a team ready to play ball” I DO see “players” trying to get a team together, and “make it happen”: Wil always wanted to start something, Ken Sims said he can kick in $1000 right away up to a max of $3000/ year and I can match Ken’s contribution, same amount. Now, I don’t know if the “houseboat island” is the best idea…. But it is an example of a practical, cheap way to get on the water. In fact, if only 2 houseboats under 40′ LOA, are used, then we can very realisically drop the total price for the project to around $ 30k or less. Something like this,…maybe.

    #12935

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    The “low road” approach has been discussed before, and there is a group of us here (including myself) who belive that “you shouldn’t try to run a marathon if you can’t walk yet” sort of speaking. A coastal, close to shore anchored floating community should be the place to start, no doubt about it, in my view. And the solution (read infrastructure) to that should be the “improved yachting” idea, as Wil put it. To further expand a bit on this concept, I think it should start as rafted up houseboats floating “Island”. It makes a lot of sense for a group of people who don’t have $ millions in start up capital, but only few tenth of thousand of $,…Also, lets forget about building from scratch for now, or @ least keep it to a minimum. Namely, to the floats around the houseboats and a common, floating public area. Such an “Island” can be built and run as a timeshare for the owners, to start with. Gradually, it will develop strong social and economic ties, not only between the owners but with the close by, on land communities. Money WILL start pouring in @ some point, no doubt about that! Opened to the pubic for overnight on the water accomodations, fishing, boating, watersports, etc. It’s all there.

    As an example. I run yesterday into this ad, http://staugustine.craigslist.org/boa/2271487687.html. Yes, $ 7800 for a 53′ houseboat!! For that money you can’t even build the hull of a 30′ LOA “anything” that floats,…trust me. And forget about all the equipment on board for that money. And there are a lots of those for sale under $10k. I know of @ least 3 or 4. Yes, they might need a bit of work, but how can you beat the price? Now, 3 houseboats, 40′-50′ LOA @ $30k. Another $20k for the raft up, the floats in between, repairs, upgrades, couple of small power boats for commuting to shore. $50k total. 12 people @ $ 4k-5k each and 6 month later the whole thing it’s on the water.

    Each owner gets 1 month timeshare of the whole deal, the whole “Island”, 3 houseboats and the rest of the floating areas plus the monthly profit share associated with running the island as a business. The renting of 2 houseboats only will bring @ least $4k net a month (as an average for the year). Renting jet skis, fishing boats, etc will get another $4k net a month, if not much more,…How hard is that, you guys tell me,…12 people @ $5k each with a potential 160% ROI the first year while vacationing for 1 month on your private island ?? Dahh,..Thousands around the world are congregating and fighting for freedom, toppling dictators and regimes and we can’t get 12 people to have fun, make money and start something? Wow!

    But let me tell you something. If you want to play ball, you need a team and a coach. To get there, you need to put the team together, get a coach, start training hard, which require discipline and hard work. After that, you might win a game or two, and, who knows, you might even make it to the Super Bowl.

    Seasteading it’s just like that. So far, I don’t see a team ready to play ball and definately I don’t see a coach. And no Super Bowl in sight for that matter.

    This is a very interesting thing in terms of “have a realistic look in what kind of market we are” – it can be seen as a real world offer to the “aquatic housing market” it says basicly you can have 70 squaremeter of floating living space at 7800 USD – means 111 USD/squaremeter – ready to use – that is much more economic than anything you can get on land.

    Nevertheless – the offer is “just sitting there”… who can compete with that? -who can get a “couple of million USD venture capital” to such a market for building a settlement from scrap – and how?

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #12936
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    chase that venture capital? In my oppinion, it’s nerve racking,…Let’s chase Average Joe’s “venture capital” and let’s make them a bit of money. Statistically, there are much better chances to get 20 people to invest $3k than getting $60k from 1 person.

    #12937
    Profile photo of R-B-Wood
    R-B-Wood
    Participant

    Octavian, I would also be in the same boat with the $1000 now, possibly $3000+ a year. And I like this 2 boat idea. It’s a manageable size and cost and the aesthetics aren’t bad either. If I were to get rid of my house (which I am seriously considering doing with the way the US market is still) I could contribute more than $10,000 a year to a project if I could see some returns (such as being able to live on it, or get some of the rental income).

    I talked with Ken about joining up with their group, still waiting on a disposition.

    I take it you are planning on putting this somewhere around the keys with static positioning? What will you do with it during huricane season? Would the platform be designed to handle such waves? And the boats just head to a safe harbor and wait the storms out? The issue I mentioned before with using houseboats is that they aren’t equipped to deal with even 3′ waves let alone the waves that can be stirred up with hurricanes nearby.

    I’m looking at a 36′ Trojan Tri-Cabin for $7000 that’s actually in pretty good shape and wouldn’t be a bad liveaboard. Granted it’s not as spacious as a houseboat, but it’s actually designed for ocean use and can take some waves.

    #12939

    We had part of this discussion at the “apply concrete shell seasteading” thread.

    Here is the link to the important part: seasteading as floating marina development

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #12941
    Profile photo of R-B-Wood
    R-B-Wood
    Participant

    I recall reading through that before. I’m not seeing where it mentions making houseboats seaworthy, but the business ideas on the series of posts you linked to is a very good idea. I would definitely be interested in joining up with Seasteading Inc if they can turn that into a good business plan.

    We had part of this discussion at the “apply concrete shell seasteading” thread.

    Here is the link to the important part: seasteading as floating marina development

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #12946
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Here are some answers.

    Yes, I think the best location would be Florida Keys, around Key West, permanently moored.

    During the hurricane season the structure will stay moored in the same location. The structure should be designed to withstand tropical storm conditions with winds of 60 knt and also be able to move to shelter (as a whole) under it’s own power deep inside Florida Bay, in case of a major hurricane.

    The houseboats I’m talking about here are not the ones you see on lakes, built on pontoons. These are solid monohull, built more like trawlers than houseboats, able to take serious weather.

    #12947
    Profile photo of R-B-Wood
    R-B-Wood
    Participant

    Sounds good. I started looking at some of those houseboats too, but haven’t found any for less than $10k that are in good enough condition for this venture. This one looks pretty good though, how much is it and what kind fo work does it need?

    #12950
    Profile photo of Matt
    Matt
    Participant

    I’ve read the (Wil’s) numbers over and over again, I’ve tried to understand the substead concept and must admit that it took me some months for it to “sink in”, but now I’m pretty confident it is marketable.

    Living in South America myself I can attest to the wave of expats that come to start a new life. 1 out of 100 of them are actual adventurers. I know for a fact I have a good chance to get financing for a completely (legally) safe turnkey operation. But even that is somewhat of a long shot, so:

    I believe some of us do have more than 60K in assets, and in many cases it’s truly a matter of how you want to spend your time/money, and risk-tolerance, than lack of actual capital.

    I estimate that if the shell infrastructure is of that price, then just to be sure I’ll say 120K will buy a fully furnished vessel/living space with super safe toillet valves.

    For how much could it be privately chartered? Or rather, how much would someone pay for acommodation that is way more private and and a lot closer to the reef?

    Cheap waterfront parcels in Ambergris Cay, Belize are about 60,000USD/ 450m2 but on the wrong (west) side of the island and in pre-development (no roads, jungle not cleared,). Point is that some non millionaires pay hundreds of thousends of dollars to be able to live, or spends some time close to the underwater gardens that are coral reefs.

    As a business model I’d propose a better version of this: overnight stays, literally a spit away (un par de brazadas hasta) from Australia’s magical coral reefs: http://www.reeftrip.com/day-cruises-details.aspx#magic

    The Western Caribbean is home to the second (or third if you count the Triangle) biggest reef system in the world and is only a short fly or sail away from North America, growing Latin America, and somewhat closer to Europe than Australia. There is a huge market if it begins as a hospitality option for snorkelers and divers.

    A 120K project could be divided in 10 or 6 or only 3 shares and I’d still be willing personally to invest in it (provided the myriad of details to be worked out ).

    Matt wrote:

    … I believe the theoretical part is basically solved. Time to make it happen? …. how many people interested in this would be able to contribute….

    I

    Looks that not many – we could not make it to 5000/month for a start up project – not even as a group with shared contributions – the last time the idea came up… so still waiting for a “commited individual with the necessary means and drive”…

    Maybe ocean is right that rafting up 5000 USD used houseboats in a “seasteading oriented” community is a way to get it done even more economic than “dedicated hull building”.

    Put me on the list for moving to such a community and introducing the substead way to move houseboat culture farer out into the ocean – if it should happen some day.

    Wil

    [/quote]

    #12952

    Well that looks we are back to the starting point again. We where talking what would be the best solution for living on the water, sufficient economic for average joe to do it – and we came to conclusion that the best living space offer to get aquatic, still comes from the “yachting market” in form of second hand houseboats.

    On the other hand houseboats need a “somewhat protected ambient” to perform a permanent settlement on sea – they can not stand ANY weather anywhere on the ocean, as the submerged living space bubble can. So if we go with houseboats we are back to “breakwater lagoon design” .

    Concepts that have been suggested – the waterworld ring breakwater lagoon, the ecofisk ring segment lagoon, the U harbor, the mobile cruiseship harbor, the seastar concept harbor, the triangular breakwater harbor,

    Many of those concepts have been suggested in big industrial scale – but are also feasible in smaller scale for house boating purpose. So we could understand seasteading as a “housboat living floating marina development”. The plate seastead would be reduced to a series of small rings and walkways enclosing lagoons where independent houseboats, yachts, living space bubble units can have shelter and “come together” .

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #12956
    Profile photo of R-B-Wood
    R-B-Wood
    Participant

    Well that looks we are back to the starting point again. We where talking what would be the best solution for living on the water, sufficient economic for average joe to do it – and we came to conclusion that the best living space offer to get aquatic, still comes from the “yachting market” in form of second hand houseboats.

    On the other hand houseboats need a “somewhat protected ambient” to perform a permanent settlement on sea – they can not stand ANY weather anywhere on the ocean, as the submerged living space bubble can. So if we go with houseboats we are back to “breakwater lagoon design” .

    Concepts that have been suggested – the waterworld ring breakwater lagoon, the ecofisk ring segment lagoon, the U harbor, the mobile cruiseship harbor, the seastar concept harbor, the triangular breakwater harbor,Many of those concepts have been suggested in big industrial scale – but are also feasible in smaller scale for house boating purpose. So we could understand seasteading as a “housboat living floating marina development”. The plate seastead would be reduced to a series of small rings and walkways enclosing lagoons where independent houseboats, yachts, living space bubble units can have shelter and “come together” .

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    I would be interested in trying a breakwater lagoon design as a safe harbor for a miriad of private vessels. This could play into the concrete shell structure and modular floating structure threads as well. We could build a small scale lagoon from hollow concrete forms, which could be added to and scaled as more people joined the “marina”.

    A question I have would be, what are the smallest dimiensions we would need to make such a structure (U harbor, waterworld ring, seastar, etc) to actually provide protection for the vessels inside? How deep and how high would you want to go? Would a smaller one which would (at least to some extent) ride some of the large storm waves work, or would it need to be big enough that waves cut around it, in which case, how big? Would it need to be overly flexible?

    For instance, 4m deep by 3m wide concrete shell (5cm thick) would weigh 2 tons and cost $600 per linear meter. A harbor big enough for 4 50′ house boats would be $45,000 (32 x 10 m, leaving one 10m section open) assuming you need to go 4m deep. $45k is a bit more than I was thinking when responding to this thread, but for the sake of argument, would something like that be sufficient to protect a few houseboats?

    #12962
    Profile photo of wesley_Bruce
    wesley_Bruce
    Participant

    I like plate stead.

    The design could allow you to have a lot of stable deck space cheaply. It could be made safe and amenable if you do several things.

    1. Add very light entertainment decks to your rim for views and make these light enough to be funtional life rafts. Put only the heavy stuff on the wide open sub sea deck.
    2. Add large bay window sized parascopes to create the illusion that structures below the sea level are above sea level. These may be mirror based parascopes or big flat screen TV’s with a fixed link to a camera in an interesting place on the rim.
    3. Add a very large light inflatable structure to the inside of the bowl or pressurise the buildings. The air pressure is kept a lttle above atmospheric pressure by fans and airlock doors. This will not be sea worthy but it will keep out water through comnter pressure from a large enough volume of the bowl to maintain boyancy in an emergency. The bowl protects the bubble and the bubble keeps the structure afloat.
    4. or This may be a deployable ‘inflatable life raft’ tied down to the deck. It could be inflatable bubbles under the deck. If inflated it lifts the wholestructure to counter the weight of water flowing in. It should not be used routinely since if they are deployed the vessels center of mass windes up ablve sea level. ]
    5. Add sealed pressure tight corridors that link all the internal structures to the rim and life boats so if the rim or deck breaches you can still make it to safety bypassing the inflooding torrent.
    6. Make the hull a double hull with airbags inside concrete cell. This makes a breach of the hull almost impossible and raises the possibility that the air bag would press against any crack or hole and would partly seal it. [Applies for all sub surface sera stead structures and designs.]
    7. Add a false hull that waves must force their way over with drains to the sea that are normally closed. The sea level between this hull and the main hull is maintained at mean sea level for the tide. When a wave breaks over the first wall the valves are opperanted as its trough approaches. The energy is spent before it reached the bowl hull and the water drains away.
    8. Add a floating volume of fresh water contained in a plastic envelope around the out side of the hull. Fresh water floats on salt water. So If there is a breach in the concrete hull, the water flooding in is still boyant realtive to sea water. The vessel will take longer to sink. If there’s a breach in the plastic hull you just loose a few days desalinated fresh water. Very few forces will punch through a thick plastc hull, 2 metres of fresh water and a ferroconcrete hull.

    These add safety at minimul additional cost. They add complexity but so does any decoration.

    =========================================================================================================

    For everyone’s information I was involved with the original Oceania Project in a small way. I’m also in several space organisations. And I have a Degree in sustainable Development, sustainable agriculture and renewable energy,water and sewerage.

    #12963

    R wrote:

    I would be interested in trying a breakwater lagoon design as a safe harbor for a miriad of private vessels. This could play into the concrete shell structure and modular floating structure threads as well. We could build a small scale lagoon from hollow concrete forms, which could be added to and scaled as more people joined the “marina”.

    A question I have would be, what are the smallest dimiensions we would need to make such a structure (U harbor, waterworld ring, seastar, etc) to actually provide protection for the vessels inside? How deep and how high would you want to go? Would a smaller one which would (at least to some extent) ride some of the large storm waves work, or would it need to be big enough that waves cut around it, in which case, how big? Would it need to be overly flexible?

    For instance, 4m deep by 3m wide concrete shell (5cm thick) would weigh 2 tons and cost $600 per linear meter. A harbor big enough for 4 50′ house boats would be $45,000 (32 x 10 m, leaving one 10m section open) assuming you need to go 4m deep. $45k is a bit more than I was thinking when responding to this thread, but for the sake of argument, would something like that be sufficient to protect a few houseboats?

    I would start with a breakwater size “as usual in floating marinas of the region” – this is what obviously works well for practical purpose. So the first step would be to stroll trough the marinas and ask for “experience with the floating breakwater in the last big storm” – forget anything what naval engineers tell you about wave dampening amplitude blabla… just ask fishermen and yachties in what conditions they feel that their boat is safe behind such a floating breakwater. You will find that for 99% of the real world conditions a modest size will do the job quite nicely – plan for leaving the U and go for hurricane shelter once every hundred days. If you find the U in good shape after a couple of hurricanes you might opt for “riding it out inside the U” first unmanned later staying on board.

    I agree that for making the breakwater U sufficient big and strong for open ocean – (cape hoorn) you need “quite a bit of structure” – so it might be more economic in the end to go for “submersible bubble living space” in first place – it encloses living space “all weather safe” with the lowest need of expensive structure/cubic meter possible and thinkable.

    Typical size, make, and look of a U breakwater – it is just another “marina box” – cost about 331 euro/ton of structure.

    Wil

    #12971
    Profile photo of Matt
    Matt
    Participant

    Obviously the technical part is over (as complicated as it is). It’s been done during the invasion of Normandy. There’s got to be a thread about the floating docks they used and their remains,

    My top questions here are how to justify economically a marina offshore for not saying in the middle of nowhere. It’s not that people can’t gamble illegally inland, or circumvent the law in all twistable ways anyway.

    However, Wil’s description of a typical semisub yachtie anchoring on a desert island oblivious to the storms that make it uninhabited, convinces me that here (whether in the form of a floatin breakwater-marina or and concrete living bubbles, and maybe tensegrity structures for farmfishing and maybe for “decks” as well*) we have a vessel, an instrument of settlement of the near freedom: the uninhabited islands the Caribbean and later Pacific and Indic oceans.

    Why apply technically a principle and not apply it politically too? Incrementalism means that seasteads will begin as part, even as instruments of settlement, of already existing “land based” (but in fact probably insular) nations.

    Feedback?

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