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Stadion Seastead, plate seastead, deeploaded seastead

Home Forums Archive Structure Designs Stadion Seastead, plate seastead, deeploaded seastead

This topic contains 61 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of ellmer - http://yook3.com ellmer – http://yook3.com 2 years, 2 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 62 total)
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  • #12882
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    vincecate wrote:

    shredder7753 wrote:

    1-2 million is not too much for a lot of people – look at the going rates for all these simple boats:

    yachtworld.com custom search – turns out $2M doesnt get you that far at the yacht dealership. but i believe it CAN get you far on a seastead!

    That search limited boat length to 60 feet. If you take that limit off you can find all sorts of interesting things:

    http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/cache/searchResults.jsp?cit=true&slim=quick&ybw=&sm=3&searchtype=advancedsearch&Ntk=boatsEN&Ntt=&is=&type=%28Power%29&man=&hmid=0&ftid=0&enid=0&fromLength=&toLength=600&luom=126&fromYear=&toYear=&fromPrice=1%2C000%2C000&toPrice=3%2C000%2C000&currencyid=100&city=&pbsint=&boatsAddedSelected=-1

    Even nice yachts:

    http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/cache/searchResults.jsp?sm=3&searchtype=advancedsearch&Ntk=boatsEN&ftid=0&N=3956&enid=0&hmid=0&type=%28Power%29&boatsAddedSelected=-1&slim=quick&currencyid=100&fromPrice=1%2C000%2C000&luom=126&toLength=600&cit=true&toPrice=3%2C000%2C000

    http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/cache/searchResults.jsp?sm=3&searchtype=advancedsearch&Ntk=boatsEN&ftid=0&N=3945&enid=0&hmid=0&type=%28Power%29&boatsAddedSelected=-1&slim=quick&currencyid=100&fromPrice=1%2C000%2C000&luom=126&toLength=600&cit=true&toPrice=3%2C000%2C000

    [/quote]

    i used that parameter for a good reason. again, we-re talking about the guys who have 1-10M dollars. hopefully no one is foolish enough to buy a 1983 mega-yacht for 2 million if their assets are only 5 million because it takes an absurd amount of money to restore and maintain such a vessel. for all the reasons we agree on concrete, and more. the yachts i brought up in my search were 60 footers because we needed them to be NEW. it wouldn’t be readily comparable to my arguiment for seasteading if they were used. you would have to compare to an old used version of my models in that case. i thought this was self-evident.

    ____________

    My work

    #12888

    The last time we talked about stepping forward and putting some money on the table to float something out we had a handfull guys who would be willing to give some 3000 USD/Year into a project -

    My practical experience with floating concrete structures is, that you need some 5000 USD/month to keep a minimum sized building site functioning (2 workers) even if the site is situated in a low wage country in south-america.

    We would talk about 60.000 as a minimum package to build a 200 ton structure – in a project that lasts a year.

    We could not get the finance together – nobody wanted to compromize.

    So my congratulations that getting a quick 1-10 Million USD into your float out projects is “no problem at all” in fantasy world – in real world ( where i am working ) it IS a BIG problem to get 60.000 into a start up project.

    Or do i speak to the wrong people? – can anybody enlighten me…

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #12889
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    we need leaders and we need unbreakable ideas.

    ____________

    My work

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #12893
    Avatar of caveden
    caveden
    Participant

    ellmer - http://yook3.com wrote:
    My practical experience with floating concrete structures is, that you need some 5000 USD/month to keep a minimum sized building site functioning (2 workers) even if the site is situated in a low wage country in south-america.

    That’s prohibitive. You have to be damn rich to be able to spend 5.000USD per month just to maintain your house. Or by building you mean something much bigger, which could be shared by multiple people? Or maybe the greatest part of these 5.000 is the salary of these 2 workers? Can’t their jobs be performed by those living in the seastead, is it really a full-time job?

    And, why is this so expensive? I haven’t finished reeading the engineering report from TSI, but I’ve read most of it. Is it the station keeping costs that push so high? I was particularly impressed by how expensive it can be just to stand still on the ocean.

    We would talk about 60.000 as a minimum package to build a 200 ton structure – in a project that lasts a year.

    This is more feasible, as is “one-shot”. Even those who don’t have such resources could borrow them or just rent the seastead from an investor.

    #12895

    caveden wrote:

    You have to be damn rich to be able to spend 5.000USD per month just to maintain your house…

    No – it is not 5000/month to maintain your house (housing solution) it is 5000/month during a year – summing up to 60.0000 to build a floating structure of some 200 tons of displacement you can live decently on, and that is capeable to withstand open ocean conditions. (building site south america).

    Once you have the structure in place (and live on it) the cost of maintainance can be close to nothing (maintenance free) and the structure will last 200 years – which is compareable to a standard house.

    Even under that conditions (that are at least as favorable as building a suburban house with similar living space) i find it incredible difficult to find somebody who steps forward and just says “let’s do it”.

    The only more economic alternative is spiral island – it is just not ocean capeable and no “structure” at all.

    The reason why 5000/month is a kind of minimum solution is because you can not establish “building sites” under that limit. Establishing building site means not only bring material in and pay workers – it means also doing all the necessary logistics to get all the tools, papers, surveilance, motivation, to that place so that work can actually begin and be maintained at a certain rithm. There is a “general cost of operation” asociated.

    I have established half a dozend building sites for floating concrete shell structures in different countries in a wide variety of ambients ranging from big shipyards in major cities to secluded beaches – the experience is – you can not do it if you do not have a funding of 5000/month as a absolute minimum and gettin there is a difficult task.

    If getting a million USD to a “floating structure project of the experimental nature” would be easy, the internet would be flooded with photos of floating structures i have built already. – I am in this since the eighties and i know what i am talking about. The reason i can only show a few floating structures i have built so far, is that i had only a few opportunities to have a funding that allowed me to work on a very limited scale for a very limited number of months.

    What kind of floating concrete structure you build, does change very little of the cost figure, the “overall building site handling cost” is always roughly the same.

    You need 5000/month and you can get out roughly 200 tons of structure/year – ( if you do it in south america and have the know how to do it ).

    This is a extremly good figure and you need a lifetime to get there but even so – getting financing for it is TREMENDOUSLY difficult – so allow me to doubth on – “easy available millions from a broad millionair segment” outside the protected space of dreamland.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #12896
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    i definitely agree with mr elmer that $5000/mo is very tight for keeping forward momentum on a jobsite. personally, having worked as a construction supervisor, i can attest to that. there are many forces that will work against you in construction, and will eliminate any progress you’re making. so momentum is pretty crucial, especially if you intend to sell the product. it needs to be professional or one of the parties involved will lose out somehow.

    ____________

    My work

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #12897
    Avatar of caveden
    caveden
    Participant

    ellmer - http://yook3.com wrote:
    No – it is not 5000/month to maintain your house (housing solution) it is 5000/month during a year – summing up to 60.0000 to build a floating structure of some 200 tons of displacement you can live decently on, and that is capeable to withstand open ocean conditions. (building site south america).

    Ah, ok, sorry for the misunderstanding. Now it’s more realistic. Interesting.

    What particular countries in South America provide you that environment? That interests me because I am south american… :-)

    Once you have the structure in place (and live on it) the cost of maintainance can be close to nothing (maintenance free) and the structure will last 200 years – which is compareable to a standard house.

    TSI report gave me another impression, particularly on the station keep thing. It seems you must either find a way to anchor -what’s not feasible too far away from the shore – or you find yourself a very weak current spot to stay.

    Even under that conditions (that are at least as favorable as building a suburban house with similar living space) i find it incredible difficult to find somebody who steps forward and just says “let’s do it”.

    No wonder. Very few people would be willing to be the “pioneers”, imagine, leaving almost alone in the middle of the Ocean? Even being an enthusiast of seasteading the way I am, I’d rather have at least enough neighbors to have a minimum sort of social life…

    And besides that, there’s also the problem of where your revenues come from. Most people couldn’t just go to the middle of the Ocean and keep their income sources. Only retired people or those with a 100% remote job could – assuming the problem of high badwidth internet in the middle of the Ocean has already been solved. :)

    This is a extremly good figure and you need a lifetime to get there but even so – getting financing for it is TREMENDOUSLY difficult – so allow me to doubth on – “easy available millions from a broad millionair segment” outside the protected space of dreamland.

    There might be such segment, but again, they’re not going to be the “first ones”. You need to be a freaking enthusiast of the whole idea behind seasteading to decide to live practially alone, in a dangerous place, considerably reducing your lifestyle – particualrly if you’re a multimillionare with a confortable life on land.

    #12903

    I would assume that the first seasteading solutions will just be “improved yachts” where the “lifestyle impact” of “being at sea” and “being at marina” will be very small – almost unnoticeable and it will be a kind of yacht that is affordable to much smaller budgets than the megayachts already offering that kind of lifestyle.

    So we we are speaking of two main engineering directions that sets seasteading apart from yacht building – signifficant cost reduction per cubic meter living space – much less dependance on marinas – so a increase in load capacity compared to existing yacht solutions.

    Spiral island does a great job in the first part (cost reduction) – but a lousy job in marina and shore independence – (cero independence much less than a yacht – due to fail on seaworthyness).

    Even a solution that does a good job in cost reduction and independence (like the bubble living space concept) will not lead to “mid ocean settlement” in a single step. Even if you have a “mid ocean capeable living space” you will use it in the way described here: seasteading.org/interact/forums/engineering/tsi-engineering/open-ocean-capeable-living-space-bubble

    Instead parking it mid ocean – only if thousands of such mid ocean capeable housing units exist and start to raft up in mid ocean in breakwater lagoons settlement will take place. Settlement is a community thing. Nobody settles in “mid desert” on land only if a focus community like Las Vegas comes up people start to settle there for a wide range of economic and personal reasons.

    First comes the wagon, then the wagon trail, then a semipermanent settlement, growing finally gradually and over time into a city.

    Improved yachts and bubble living spaces could work as waggon for ocean colonization ocean colonization will start a few miles offshore not in mid ocean.

    It started with a highly mobil housing solution – which converted to tents, houses, cities over time. We are overdue in comming up with a better mobile housing solution for the ocean than the current yacht market offers. The first ocean settlers, wanderers, are already among us in form of sea gypsies and yachties – we should focus on improving the “tool kit” … to make it “humanity main stream”.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #12905
    Avatar of Matt
    Matt
    Participant

    Amen! Wil puts his ideas in such a well rounded way, I believe the theoretical part is basically solved. Time to make it happen?

    If infrastructure is around 60K, c’mon, how many people interested in this would be able to contribute for a first shared-time substead?

    If the market for these grows, in diverse sectors, (hospitality is my favorite and I believe obvious to begin), then the costs will begin to drop and it will only be a matter of time for a seastead. Avoiding the intertidal, or hackzone seems paramount. Thus the main technical challenge might be the safety of snorkels, or sails?

    #12906
    Avatar of Matt
    Matt
    Participant

    Why aren’t there more of these? Have any of you been to this hotel? Seems it’s been in operation for decades and could be much nicer.

    #12908
    Avatar of R-B-Wood
    R-B-Wood
    Participant

    Not a bad idea Ocean. I would think you’d probably want something with a deeper hull than houseboats. There are hundreds of seaworthy 30′+ power and sail boats all over of the US for under $5000 each (even quite a few under $2000). Many don’t have motors or need a lot of work, but they float, and are designed for ocean use. How hard would it be to lash a few of these together and throw a deck across them? 3 Wide, 2 deep and you’d have a platform at least 40′x60′. You could even leave a couple of the sails up =P

    #12909
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    sailboats and/or powerboats can be used. But if built also as a business, in think houseboats will do a better job as rentals since they look more like regular apartments and have more amenities to which people will relate better in terms of paying a certain price for a nightly or weekly rental.

    #12907
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    The “low road” approach has been discussed before, and there is a group of us here (including myself) who belive that “you shouldn’t try to run a marathon if you can’t walk yet” sort of speaking. A coastal, close to shore anchored floating community should be the place to start, no doubt about it, in my view. And the solution (read infrastructure) to that should be the “improved yachting” idea, as Wil put it. To further expand a bit on this concept, I think it should start as rafted up houseboats floating “Island”. It makes a lot of sense for a group of people who don’t have $ millions in start up capital, but only few tenth of thousand of $,…Also, lets forget about building from scratch for now, or @ least keep it to a minimum. Namely, to the floats around the houseboats and a common, floating public area. Such an “Island” can be built and run as a timeshare for the owners, to start with. Gradually, it will develop strong social and economic ties, not only between the owners but with the close by, on land communities. Money WILL start pouring in @ some point, no doubt about that! Opened to the pubic for overnight on the water accomodations, fishing, boating, watersports, etc. It’s all there.

    As an example. I run yesterday into this ad, http://staugustine.craigslist.org/boa/2271487687.html. Yes, $ 7800 for a 53′ houseboat!! For that money you can’t even build the hull of a 30′ LOA “anything” that floats,…trust me. And forget about all the equipment on board for that money. And there are a lots of those for sale under $10k. I know of @ least 3 or 4. Yes, they might need a bit of work, but how can you beat the price? Now, 3 houseboats, 40′-50′ LOA @ $30k. Another $20k for the raft up, the floats in between, repairs, upgrades, couple of small power boats for commuting to shore. $50k total. 12 people @ $ 4k-5k each and 6 month later the whole thing it’s on the water.

    Each owner gets 1 month timeshare of the whole deal, the whole “Island”, 3 houseboats and the rest of the floating areas plus the monthly profit share associated with running the island as a business. The renting of 2 houseboats only will bring @ least $4k net a month (as an average for the year). Renting jet skis, fishing boats, etc will get another $4k net a month, if not much more,…How hard is that, you guys tell me,…12 people @ $5k each with a potential 160% ROI the first year while vacationing for 1 month on your private island ?? Dahh,..Thousands around the world are congregating and fighting for freedom, toppling dictators and regimes and we can’t get 12 people to have fun, make money and start something? Wow!

    But let me tell you something. If you want to play ball, you need a team and a coach. To get there, you need to put the team together, get a coach, start training hard, which require discipline and hard work. After that, you might win a game or two, and, who knows, you might even make it to the Super Bowl.

    Seasteading it’s just like that. So far, I don’t see a team ready to play ball and definately I don’t see a coach. And no Super Bowl in sight for that matter.

    #12911

    Matt wrote:

    … I believe the theoretical part is basically solved. Time to make it happen? …. how many people interested in this would be able to contribute….

    I

    Looks that not many – we could not make it to 5000/month for a start up project – not even as a group with shared contributions – the last time the idea came up… so still waiting for a “commited individual with the necessary means and drive”…

    Maybe ocean is right that rafting up 5000 USD used houseboats in a “seasteading oriented” community is a way to get it done even more economic than “dedicated hull building”.

    Put me on the list for moving to such a community and introducing the substead way to move houseboat culture farer out into the ocean – if it should happen some day.

    Wil

    #12912

    Matt wrote:

    Why aren’t there more of these?

    Jules underwater lodge is a saturation diving habitat in the tradition of custeaus conshelf habitats – saturation diving is definitly loosing ground to 1 ATM suits and ROV solutions in the offshore industry due to its high grade of complication. Cousteaus “aquasapiens” did not happen. If we colonize the ocean we will probably adapt the ocean ambient to our body not our body to the ocean ambient. Saturation habitats like Jules is a nostalgic remain of this failed way to colonize the ocean in the seventies – this is the reason why there are not more of it . 1 ATM living space bubbles and telepresence is a much more suitable way to do it.

    Wil

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 62 total)

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