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Spar design versus flat raft platform design

Home Forums Archive Structure Designs Spar design versus flat raft platform design

This topic contains 39 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of elspru elspru 4 years ago.

Viewing 10 posts - 31 through 40 (of 40 total)
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  • #10926
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    How long was your trip? How long could you (or would you) be willing to live on 12x12x7? 1, 2 10 years?

    You make it sound like there wont be additions.

    We just want to get out onto the water and start living.

    Do not confuse a summer vacation, or a fishing trip, or a daysail, or living aboard w/ seasteading. No Sir! Even if we consider living aboard (which is the closest to seasteading- but “no cigar”) one would split his time half and half between the boat and land. @ the dock. But seasteading is very different. The seastead is LAND. Its ALL you have. Home sweet home, brother. So, if you dont want to have a crew gone “postal” or hooked on valium you better give them “space”.

    Sure everyone can have their own boat.

    An island consists of those boats that decided to bond together.

    Now, assuming the nuclear family?… 4 individuals @ 300 sq ft/ person.

    that’s twice the minimum requirement.

    My answer is 60′ LOA x 30′ BEAM. My design. NO LESS.

    that would be difficult to sail single-handed.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #10913
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    How long was your trip? How long could you (or would you) be willing to live on 12x12x7? 1, 2 10 years? Do not confuse a summer vacation, or a fishing trip, or a daysail, or living aboard w/ seasteading. No Sir! Even if we consider living aboard (which is the closest to seasteading- but “no cigar”) one would split his time half and half between the boat and land. @ the dock. But seasteading is very different. The seastead is LAND. Its ALL you have. Home sweet home, brother. So, if you dont want to have a crew gone “postal” or hooked on valium you better give them “space”.

    Now, assuming the nuclear family?… 4 individuals @ 300 sq ft/ person.

    My answer is 60′ LOA x 30′ BEAM. My design. NO LESS. Ocean going, (passage maker capable), heavy, strong, ferrocement (@ least 3″ hull thickness). 5 to12 “crew” in 5+ “housing units”. Rigged as a sailstead. (solar would be GRAND). Build a few and raft them up. And keep on adding. When big ehough, lock permanentlly in place and start expending verticaly by increasing the size of the freeboard and using the masts as pillar of support for a 2nd and 3rd deck. See the 8 modules “Raft Up 2″, posted previously. Then you’ll have a floating island. And yes, keep on adding!

    #10927
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Yes, Jack they are housing units. A bigger module (as I proposed @ 200′ LOA) is possible to be built and would indeed cost much less per person if structured as a partnership,since it can accommodate 80-100 people. Therefore, a lower start up capital per person.

    Elspru, I had suggested 300 sq ft/ person. Nobody said otherwise,..so I used that. If its more then a “certain requirment” its ok. The “extra” space can accommodate paying passangers or be used for the onboard businesses, storage, etc. Singlehand sailing this modules it is possible. The sails (main and jib) will be rollerfurled. But I do expect a crew of @ least 2 per module,..

    Yes, Wohl, I too think its doable. Not only as a SFS in itself, but as a larger scale seasteading project. 8 of this modules, rafted up, will form a floating artificial island 240′ LOA X 90′ beam.

    Please also keep in mind that these modules can be rafted in different “formations”. The one shown here is a “mobile formation” where the modules are traveling as one big unit. The advantage of this formation would be saving big on fuel, since you need to run only 2 of the module’s engine, out of the 8, and still make good headway. Or it can just be sailed to the destination.

    #10929
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    Yes, Jack they are housing units. A bigger module (as I proposed @ 200′ LOA) is possible to be built and would indeed cost much less per person if structured as a partnership,since it can accommodate 80-100 people. Therefore, a lower start up capital per person.

    Elspru, I had suggested 300 sq ft/ person. Nobody said otherwise

    There were alternatives mentioned.

    20m^3 or 700ft^3

    equivalent of 10m^2 or 107 square feet.

    ,..so I used that. If its more then a “certain requirment” its ok. The “extra” space can accommodate paying passangers or be used for the onboard businesses, storage, etc. Singlehand sailing this modules it is possible. The sails (main and jib) will be rollerfurled. But I do expect a crew of @ least 2 per module,..

    What is the cost estimate for this thing?

    How much surface area is there,

    and how much volume?

    Please also keep in mind that these modules can be rafted in different “formations”. The one shown here is a “mobile formation” where the modules are traveling as one big unit. The advantage of this formation would be saving big on fuel, since you need to run only 2 of the module’s engine, out of the 8, and still make good headway. Or it can just be sailed to the destination.

    Absolutely any structure can be interconnect,

    by materials similar to what it is made of.

    So we could simply ferrosheath boats,

    which can cost about $2700 for a 27 foot boat.

    costing about $40 per square meter surface area.

    or 0.37c per square foot.

    It can also make use of a readily available resource, used boats.

    It would be relatively covert, as most wouldn’t notice it’s made of ferrocement.

    once on the ocean, they can be ferrocemented together,

    forming an island.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #10875
    Avatar of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    consider a raft? I don’t know. I’m not a marine engineer but I’ve read a lot of books and articles that lead me to believe that rafts might really be the way to go! Thor Heyerdahl with his rafts Kon Tiki, Ra’s I & II, The Neutrino’s, various ‘survival at sea’ stories as extreme examples, have demonstrated what has and can been done. While no one in their right mind would want to live like that for any length of time by choice, it does present a baseline of minimum acceptability from an engineering standpoint. More to the Seasteading point though: it’s been done! It could be recreated and reproduced (with limited modifications to improve livability) not for the billions or the millions or even the hundreds of thousands of dollars that has been proposed here. Even Xns’ hexatoons, as good as they are at $20 a square foot, are still financially out of reach for most people. Your modules as proposed Ocean, I think, are too big ie., financially out of reach. In the Cruising community most of the boats out there seem to be in the 26 to 56 foot range with the vast majority being in the mid to lower 30′s. Boats bigger than that can’t be single-handed safely and smaller can’t carry enough food, water and other necessities to be comfortable. In any case, whats needed is something big enough to house a single family comfortably. Ocean, you’ve already proposed a standardized shape with angles etc., but that’s just a start…

    LOL! Ya’ know, this whole site just goes ’round in circles…. We’ve said all this before… we’ll say all this again….

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    there are alternatives out there. Life is full of alternatives as alternatives to previous alternatives. Most of the people dwell for their whole life in an infinite maze of alternative universes.

    I didnt estimate the cost yet. The total area for the Module shown (60′x30′) its aprox.1600 sq ft (800 sq ft of living space and 800 sq ft on deck ,”under the sun”). Total volume is aprox. 12,000.00 cubic ft. ( 8000 of living space and 4000 for storage, engine, auxiliary equipment).

    Of course that any structure can be interconnected. Thats another alternative,…

    “So we could simply ferrosheath boats,…..once on the ocean, they can be ferrocemented together” yet, another alternative that is easier said than done. In reality, a logistic nightmare. Ferrocement its a complicated material to handle because it has to cure @ the right temperature and for the time.You can read more about it here. http://www.ferroboats.com/

    #10945
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    there are alternatives out there. Life is full of alternatives as alternatives to previous alternatives. Most of the people dwell for their whole life in an infinite maze of alternative universes.

    I didnt estimate the cost yet. The total area for the Module shown (60′x30′) its aprox.1600 sq ft (800 sq ft of living space and 800 sq ft on deck ,”under the sun”). Total volume is aprox. 12,000.00 cubic ft. ( 8000 of living space and 4000 for storage, engine, auxiliary equipment).

    Of course that any structure can be interconnected. Thats another alternative,…

    “So we could simply ferrosheath boats,…..once on the ocean, they can be ferrocemented together” yet, another alternative that is easier said than done. In reality, a logistic nightmare. Ferrocement its a complicated material to handle because it has to cure @ the right temperature and for the time.You can read more about it here. http://www.ferroboats.com/

    I’m well aware of ferroboats.

    from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_cement

    Hydraulic cements (e.g. Portland cement) harden because of hydration chemical reactions that occur independently of the admixture’s water content; they can harden even underwater or when constantly exposed to wet weather

    the curing is to make sure it doesn’t get too dry.

    there are cements specially formulated for application underwater:

    http://www.subac.com/

    underwater welding can also be done,

    quite possibly with oxyhydrogen fuel.

    if waves or wind are an issue, we can move the seastead to a low wind and wave zone for connecting new components.

    here is world wind map:

    these are world waves map:

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #10946
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Will can tell us more about the subject. He’s got the expertise. I dont think that pooring concrete on deck for a permanent connection would be a big problem, as long as any of the so called modules are rafted up tightly. I wouldnt want to get involved with underwater welding, or underwater concrete construction, because, first, it can get very expensive and second, I dont see the reson for it. The modules shud be constructed on land. Even if sheathing in ferro-cement of a wooden module is the preferred construction method, this is done on land.

    #10948
    Avatar of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    on a TSI funded Non-profit Dry dock…

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    Will can tell us more about the subject. He’s got the expertise. I dont think that pooring concrete on deck for a permanent connection would be a big problem, as long as any of the so called modules are rafted up tightly. I wouldnt want to get involved with underwater welding, or underwater concrete construction, because, first, it can get very expensive and second, I dont see the reson for it. The modules shud be constructed on land. Even if sheathing in ferro-cement of a wooden module is the preferred construction method, this is done on land.

    Yes, I agree, the majority of the work can be done on land.

    Such as module construction, and ferrosheathing.

    The actual connecting part,

    of the modules to the island,

    must be done on the ocean.

    Under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea treaty (UNCLOS), artificial islands are not considered harbor works (Article 11) and are under the jurisdiction of the nearest coastal state if within 200 nautical miles (370 km) (Article 56).[1] Artificial islands are not considered islands for purposes of having their own territorial waters or exclusive economic zones, and only the coastal state may authorize their construction (Article 60). However, on the high seas beyond national jurisdiction, any “state” may construct artificial islands (Article 87).

    If the connection is to be permanent and strong, it may require some welding and cement.

    some of which may have to happen underwater.

    Once the initial connection is made, we can put coral at the joint,

    so that it could grow more connection via the coral growth.

    People already on a floating island,

    can also make boats on their dry docks.

    But yes, contemporarily,

    ferrocement construction or ferrosheathing,

    is far more doable soon.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

Viewing 10 posts - 31 through 40 (of 40 total)

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