1. Skip to navigation
  2. Skip to content
  3. Skip to sidebar




Space Habitation

Home Forums Community General Chat Space Habitation

This topic contains 108 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of Ken Sims Ken Sims 2 years, 11 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 91 through 105 (of 109 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #14948
    Avatar of HopDavid
    HopDavid
    Participant

    Speich84 wrote:

    Thank you for the further discussion Hop, false dichotomy indeed. As a person incredibly addicted to Wired.com and newscientist.com news feed, including DARPA updates, I try to keep the dreamers and the innovators in the same hand without mixing them.

    Your proposal on fuel depots is absolutely neccessary, however, the reliance on water for fuel may not be. The latest focus for propulsion tech relies on metal hydrogen which is manufacturable and potentially present in asteroids and outer ring planets. Water IS of course undeniably vital to the propagation of our species.

    The most promising non-chemical rocket engines (in my opinion) are ion engines. Typically these use noble gases for reaction mass: argon or xenon. I was disappointed neither of these were found in the LCROSS ejecta, but I’m still hoping some may be found in the lunar cold traps.

    If hydrogen becomes a good propellant, the moon could supply that. The moon is about 2.5 km/s from EML1 and EML2.

    From EML1 & 2 delta V to NEOs start at .7 km/s and go up.

    From LEO (Low Earth Orbit), that’s 3.2 km/s and up.

    Speich84 wrote:
    In turn I point to the water geuysers of the moon Ececlydus(sp?) which may contain more H2O than our own oceans…though outer ring colonization is a far view goal unfortunately.

    I believe there’s abundant water in the main asteroid belt. And many NEOs are very likely extinct comets that still have volatile ices in their well insulated centers. Long before we could put a small dent in the Lunar north pole’s 600 million tonnes, we would be in a position to harvest these resources.

    I put together a list of links giving evidence many asteroids have water. I am hoping Dawn will substantiate the notion that Ceres has a large subsurface body of liquid water.

    As we go further out in the solar system, water becomes even more abundant. But solar energy becomes scarce. If humankind ever develops practical artificial fusion power, I believe we will spread to the Kuiper Belt and even the Oort Cloud.

    #14949
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    There are no ETs, no angels, no magical pixies waiting to swoop down

    wow, you’re thick man, who do you think I am?

    I guess I’m not really waiting, I’ve already swooped down.

    I have vivid memories of my star being lives.

    Though seriously people, before going into space, we should at least colonize the Oceans and Antarctica. Best to also have some airsteads of course.

    Having a submarine base, and a space-base has a large amount of similarities,

    in fact the Nasa astronauts practice for their space-walks underwater.

    aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #14953
    Avatar of Mad-Dog-Tannen
    Mad-Dog-Tannen
    Participant

    elspru wrote:

    wow, you’re thick man, who do you think I am?

    I guess I’m not really waiting, I’ve already swooped down.

    I have vivid memories of my star being lives.

    elspru, you truly are one of my most favorite people. :D

    #14956
    Avatar of Dervogel707
    Dervogel707
    Participant

    Me too. And J smith why would’t there be ETs I mean give me one good reason its ilogical. You got your Greys ,Zeta Reticuli, Reptilians, and possibly other human type species. I mean you believe in other planets in this univese…right? Why couldnt life evolve there.

    #14957
    Avatar of Mad-Dog-Tannen
    Mad-Dog-Tannen
    Participant

    You guys are so missing the point of what J Smith was getting at. You are reading into what you expect to see rather than seeing what he is saying.

    In essence, he is making no real argument for or against “us being alone” in the universe. Certainly, some of the quotes he posted do say as much, but you will notice that J Smith himself did not. Rather, I would put forth, he is asserting that due to our limited view of the universe it does not matter one way or the other right now whether there is life out there or not. What matters is that we consider life to be sacred.

    The views he shared in the quotes are really saying that we should consider ourselves the only life out there until otherwise proven, not because it is convenient or because it absolves us of any sort of ambiguous valuation upon the exploitation of extra-solar resources…. Rather, we should consider ourselves and the rest of life on Earth the only life in the universe because, life being sacred, it gives us a guiding ideal for how we should treat the idea of space travel, exploration, and colonization, and also a standard for how we should treat our own planet. Given that one might consider life to be the most sacred of all things (remember the phrase that referred to each of us as nearly gods in and of ourselves just for being concious of life) we should not only treat life as being sacred here, but focus ourselves toward the goal of spreading life in all forms as far through the galaxy and universe as possible. In the grand scheme of time, life is all quite similar given the “speed” of evolution, and even shooting extremophile microbes shotgun-style through the spans of space could be considered sublime.

    He is not saying that we are alone because he doubts the existence of life elsewhere, whether he does or not. He is saying we should consider ourselves alone because given that life is sacred we must then admit to ourselves our true responsibility and put aside such silly, selfish, and counter productive ideas as war, hate, and oppression.

    Am I the only one who got this?

    #14958
    Avatar of Ken Sims
    Ken Sims
    Keymaster
    Dervogel707 wrote:

    But I do have to say you are sad and pathetic J smith for being so stupid.

    No more of that, and that’s official.

    Ken
    Volunteer admin, moderator, and primary spamfighter

    #14959
    Avatar of Ken Sims
    Ken Sims
    Keymaster
    emmettvm wrote:

    You guys are so missing the point of what J Smith was getting at. You are reading into what you expect to see rather than seeing what he is saying.

    In essence, he is making no real argument for or against “us being alone” in the universe. Certainly, some of the quotes he posted do say as much, but you will notice that J Smith himself did not.

    Note the middle sentence in this quote from earlier in the thread. That dogmatic statement is what I objected to.

    i_is_j_smith wrote:
    People like you are so desperate to attribute this stuff to crazy ideas because you are so afraid that there isn’t anything else out there in the vast depths of the universe. You need to come to the harsh cold realization that humans are the only advanced lifeform in the universe and it is up to us, and us alone, to spread life throughout the cosmos. There are no ETs, no angels, no magical pixies waiting to swoop down and take you away from your pitiful lives.

    #14960
    Avatar of Ken Sims
    Ken Sims
    Keymaster
    shredder7753 wrote:

    (Ken if u really want to spend time watching a youtube video start with this one)

    Bookmarked, along with all the other stuff.

    #14971
    Avatar of Dervogel707
    Dervogel707
    Participant

    emmettvm J smith was saying it himself he didn’t believe and we are all pathetic because we believe in other species in an endless universe, and I wont believe we are the only advanced species because it has been proven to me and many others, and as of you that dont believe hopefully you will relize there must be other planets where life has evolved as advanced as us and even more advanced then us.

    #14976
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    Dervogel707 wrote:
    The images were released by NASA , its so obvious how edited and blured the pics are. I dont believe they used technology from the “star beings” to edit the photos becuase they did a pretty crappy job. If they used technology from ETs to edit the photos I dont think this conspricay theory would even exist.

    Exactly. Just think about it for a second. If there really were structures on the moon, why would NASA release images that are obviously “edited and blured”? Why would they do such a “crappy job”? They would just not release the images and say something like the data was lost in transfer…which would be a lot more believable.

    Also, how do you explain the images from v2.0 of the Celestine image browser, which shows those areas without a blur? Did they upgrade to Photoshop CS5 and do a better job?

    And don’t you think NASA would WANT to release the information that ETs existing and had built structures on the moon? They work their asses off to scrape together the cash to launch a few missions a year. If they proved that ETs existed they would get a blank check from the government to do whatever they wanted…their entire existence would be validated. Why would they keep it a secret?

    Actually, forget it. I’m pretty convinced you are just a troll and your answers to these logical and reasonable questions will be more “well the government did this” and “the men-in-black did that” nonsense. I’ll be ignoring your gibberish from here-on-out.

    #14978
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    1) I believe that we are the only sentient life form in the universe. I will allow that maybe simple versions of life exist out there. But there never has been, nor is there, any other species that has developed to our level.

    2) Regardless of that belief we should proceed as if are the only advanced life form in the universe.

    I defend my belief in two ways:

    1) It’s all about the numbers. Our galaxy is at least 10 billion years old. Even if you allow 5 billion years for the first intelligent life forms to evolve, that leave 5 billion years for that species to move out into the galaxy. The Milky Way is only 100k light years in diameter. Even moving at a snail’s pace, like one light year per century, this species would colonize the entire galaxy in 10 million years.

    There is no way any species that is colonizing the galaxy would bypass a star system like ours. Our planet is like the Hope Diamond sitting in a pile of sand. Even if this species isn’t water based there is no way they bypass all the resources available. In addition, there is no way any species is going to ignore a sun like ours, a long-lived stable star.

    More numbers. Let’s assume that there is only one advanced species in the galaxy at a time. If it takes 10 million years for one species to colonize the entire galaxy, it should have happened 500 TIMES over the past 5 billion years!! Even if you go conservative and say it takes 100 million years for a species to spread across the galaxy, it still should have happened 50 TIMES. So where is all this evidence of past advanced space-faring species? Where are the footprints? The ruins? There should at least be echos in the electromagnetic spectrum. Something! But nothing…nothing but the microwave background of the big bang. No old “Glarnoc Knows Best” episodes. No “Blilnops Top 40 Countdown”. Nothing. So, like Enrico Fermi said…where is everybody? The galaxy should be crawling with aliens, and it obviously isn’t. So where are they?

    The answer to Fermi’s Paradox is that there aren’t any. There’s nobody else around but us. But, you say, the universe is vast. Surely something must be out there. Which brings me to…

    2) The odds of life. Most people cite the vast stretches of the universe and say the odds of there being other life forms is a certainty. Out of the hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxy some 200 million are similar to our sun. 10 million Earth-like worlds can be found orbiting those stars, and life must have evolved on one million of those. Of those millions of worlds, hundreds of thousands of life forms must have evolved to tool-using levels, which means there must be hundreds or thousands of space-faring civilizations.

    One calculation I have seen is that the odds of Earth being the only living world in the universe are 10^18 to 1. That’s a 10 with 18 zeroes. A big number.

    But what this argument ignores is that nobody…and I mean NOBODY…knows what the odds are of life evolving at all. You assume that you dump a few hydrocarbons and simple chemical compounds into a pot, stir, and out pops Angelina Jolie. Nothing could be further from the truth. The chance that life would begin from the primordial soup is so remote that the fact it happened at all should blow your mind. The chance of it happening twice in the entire universe is so close to zero that it might as well be zero.

    I won’t bore you with the information theory behind that statement, but suffice to say that the chance of chemicals coming together and forming a small strand of self-replicating RNA is beyond the human mind’s ability to understand. So while the universe is big, the chance of life forming at all is even bigger.

    Here’s a little exercise: How easy is it to generate the sentence “See Spot run” completely at random? If we take just the basics components of English – 26 letters, 10 figures, 13 puncuation marks, and a space – that gives us 50 characters to work with. The odds of getting an “s” in the first position is 50 to 1, or 50^1. What are the odds of getting an “e” in the second position? That’s also 50^1. But the odds of getting the first two characters to be “se” are (50^1 * 50^1) or 50^2. There are 13 characters in the sentence (10 letters, two spaces, and a period) so the chance of generating that one sentence at random is 50^13. That would require 610,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (six hundred billion trillion) attempts. If you could generate 10 million attempts every second it would take you two BILLION years to come up with the result.

    That is only trying to generate a simple string of alphanumeric characters. Now think about how hard it would be to generate a self-replicating strand of complex chemicals out of the primordial soup! On top of that you need to factor in all the chances of that first bit of complex material evolving on to a space faring civilization!

    And it doesn’t matter what type of life we are talking about. Any creation of life requires complex arrangement of energy and matter. That order needs to come from chaos, and the chance of that happening is just as unlikely if we are talking about silicon-based life or whatever you can dream up.

    So because the chance of life existing in the universe is so incredibly small, and we see no evidence of it beyond our own (which we should given the age of the universe), the only logical conclusion is that there is no other life but our own.

    This isn’t meant to be depressing…only realistic. It is a challenge to us, and a responsibility, as the keepers of life to spread it out into the vast emptiness of the universe and not let it fade into oblivion.

    #14981
    Avatar of Dervogel707
    Dervogel707
    Participant

    J smith obviously you dont understand everything is about money. Does everything make someone a troll, well your a troll how about thaT. The chances of life existing are huge. They have developed past our level. The universe is endless and nothing you are saying here is logical. We live in an endless universe with tons of planets why wouldnt life grow there. NASA let them slip out but most images of crappy bluring were from google earth. Where many images are found. J smith if you dont already have google earth please download it and got to the moon, then type in these coordinates19 58’54.89″ N 21 11’45.94″ E. J smith I dont think that all, if the universe was small and limited I would think otherwise but those chances you are giving are incredibly wrong and not realistic at all. We should not think we are the only advanced species because we are not. The government knows that, ever hear of prject blue beam? Thats why theyre nor telling us. I’m sure they have other resoning too. Trust me we would not go back to the moon that many times to pick up some rocks. I mean if life veolved here why wouldn’t it evolve anywhere else.

    #14982
    Avatar of Mad-Dog-Tannen
    Mad-Dog-Tannen
    Participant

    You have officially been added to my list of “People with whom I want to bullshit over a beer.”

    I happen to disagree with some of your above sentiments, but not due to your rationale – your logic is impeccible – but rather because I make different assumptions given the data than you have made.

    Even though, I can only imagine that we could converse on the topic for days.

    #14985
    Avatar of Dervogel707
    Dervogel707
    Participant

    emmettvem…someone changed their mind. I’m glad, and if you want to get more into this conspricay I got some amazing videos.

    #14987
    Avatar of Shouri
    Shouri
    Participant

    I’d rather not comment on this thread but i have a habit of reading everything posted and this thread causes brain damage even though it is temporary it’s still a health hazard someone please lock this thread-.-. I can’t hold it in though, gonna hAve to ask, let’s say aliens with cognitive intelligence exist and that they don’t hide their existence why don’t they interact with us while knowing that we are here? They just don’t care? If so what difference their existence makes to you? Why do you care? And what makes you think those stuff are aliens even your video links say that it might be manmade objects being kept in secret, and what is the big deal here? Do you think a nation would declare that she militarized moon? Ofcourse the pictures will be edited we don’t even have access to ocean floor maps that are being kept secret by them, why would they share a secret that might have immideate and future strategic value. This is how systems work, when did U.S.A.F. showed their stealth bombing ability to public? Let me guess, 20 years after they developed f-117? When did you buy i-phone 4? Last year? oh well it’s prototype was finished in 2004. When did you buy Celeron processor? 5 years after it was developed? Both commerce and politics require devising strategies according to the reality of the day(market, political enviroment etc etc.), even we do the same. Commercial Secrets, Military Secrets or even your secret relationships with your secretary they are all the same, there is a reason why they are kept secret. If you are so obsessed on learning whats on moon, go there, if you can’t afford it then why do you care? Cos they go there with your tax money? Don’t pay taxes then if you are prepared for it’s consequances. Just start a seasteading nation and wait until it becomes a spacefaring civilization which would probably take a few millennia at least since only thing that can advance would be fiction and imagination(which is not likely) in a society where people turn their heads from reality. ( damn i so hate being this aggresicve-.-) At least 7 out of 10 comments Smith makes suits my mentality in general but i have never agreed on anything and on anyone before this thread on these forums. And we already have a mad man nicked elspru we don’t need more, at least there is a method to his madness and genuine ideas behind his comments(though sadly they are written in elspru dialect and pronounced in elspru accent so it takes a while to comprehend what they usually mean for your average person).

    MIGHT IS RIGHT!

Viewing 15 posts - 91 through 105 (of 109 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.



Posted on at

Categories:

Written by

Blog/Newsletter

Donate