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Space Habitation

Home Forums Community General Chat Space Habitation

This topic contains 108 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of Ken Sims Ken Sims 2 years, 7 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 76 through 90 (of 109 total)
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  • #14925
    Avatar of Ken Sims
    Ken Sims
    Keymaster

    emmettvm wrote:

    (for the records, I happen to believe that “other life” is quite likely, but I also agree whole heartedly that our sentiment should be to view ourselves as the sole holders of the burden of life.)

    I agree with the first part of your statement. There’s no particular reason to believe that earth is so unique that intelligent life only exists here. (And let’s no forget that intelligent life need not necessarily look like what we are used to and therefore need not necessarily require an earth-type planet.)

    As for the second part, that’s fine as long as it’s limited to how we live our daily lives and how we plan for space exploration within our solar system. But I strongly object to taking the lack of credible evidence (in my opinion) in the vicinity of one small planet around one third-rate star in one galaxy and using that to say that there definitely is no other intelligent life anywhere in the entire universe.

    And with that I’ll try to shut up about the topic.

    #14926
    Avatar of Speich84
    Speich84
    Participant

    HopDavid wrote:

    Speich84 wrote:

    Everyone so far seems to want to send people into space right away which is fine, however it seems to me that developing an industrial complex in space sans humans would be the smart first move. With advances in unmanned vehicle technology there are a plethora of infrastructure ideas that could happen much sooner using drones.

    I agree.

    The state of art for AI is nowhere near being able to deal with the unforeseen problems that constantly crop up in mining. So autonomous drones are out. We’d need teleoperated drones.

    For any object but the moon, light lag can easily be 20 minutes to 40 minutes. Moon light lag is 3 seconds.

    When operating heavy equipment, fast reaction time is desirable. 3 second reaction time is maybe doable. Seems to me a 20 minute reaction time is right out.

    You also want high bandwidth for able drones. Signal strength falls with inverse square of distance. Again, the only near body that allows high bandwidth is the moon.

    Speich84 wrote:
    If anyone in this forum has paid attention to the maker-bot situation, or knows about systems like HARM 2, then you would realize that the main hurdle to get over is to figure out how to get material off of asteroids and moons. Send a system of construction out to an asteroid or Martian moon with the sole purpose of developing a small array of other construction tools. Thoughts?

    Okay, we send Maker-bot to an asteroid. Where does the thermal plastic feedstock come from? And thermal plastic isn’t adequate to make drills, shovels & other needed equipment and infra structure.

    There are 3-D printers that make metal parts. But, like Maker-bot, you need feedstock. And to provide the feedstock for 3-D printers, you need mining. If earth mining, that’s a heavy transportation cost. If feed stock from in-situ resources, that’s mining infrastructure on the asteroid or moon. Which is hard.

    [/quote]

    Pretty sure that I was not suggesting using thermal plastic for mining an asteroid or putting a maker bot in space….simply that the concept is headed in the right direction but the technology has not in fact been built because it has not yet been required. You defeat the requirement for instant tele-control by having automated responses to critical situations up to and including the ceasing of work to inform the operator of an error. Mining the moon is much more feasible and realistic, even though I believe asteroids will be more profitable, and in order for it to work with robotic assistance will probably be a slow and careful process.

    There is no need to disagree about this topic unless we both plan on spending millions developing a real system. In my defense, however, I would bet the farm that my replaceable unmanned miners dig the first ton of ore on the moon before any human does. In the event that ore is actually mined, a foundry system and industrial complex needs to be developed….I am not a materials engineer so someone else would have to fill in the blanks there.

    #14927

    consider : we know that there are more planetary sistems in the universe than sand grains on all beaches of planet earth – can you really be sure that only on our sand grain is happening something interesting called life ? – i am not.

    #14928
    Avatar of Sickor
    Sickor
    Participant

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    It sucks how a decent debate regarding humanity’s expansion into space can devolve into idiocy. You are both morons who do not know how to do basic research. 5 minutes of Google-ing could have shown you that those blurry spots are caused by glitches in the image browser. If you use the newer v2.0 Clementine you can see these areas clear as day.

    Go to the Clementine Lunar Map 2.0 and move the cursor to “Tool Panels” at the top-left and then click on “Coordinates”. In the coordinates window that appears put in these coordinates:

    -73 degrees, 26 minutes Latitude

    -138 degrees, 39 minutes Longitude

    Set the Scale to 1 pixel = 800 meters and then click “Recenter Map”. You will see the exact location they talk about in the stupid YouTube video, and you will see that it isn’t a secret Chinese mining installation or Star Being Roller Rink but just a shadow. Change the scale to 1 pixel = 200 meters and you can see it very clearly.

    It’s no different than the face on Mars…a simple shadow. People like you are so desperate to attribute this stuff to crazy ideas because you are so afraid that there isn’t anything else out there in the vast depths of the universe. You need to come to the harsh cold realization that humans are the only advanced lifeform in the universe and it is up to us, and us alone, to spread life throughout the cosmos. There are no ETs, no angels, no magical pixies waiting to swoop down and take you away from your pitiful lives.

    I really don’t know what’s worse: that somebody spent time and money producing a one-hour video about this garbage or that I have to spend my time disproving something so stupid.

    Now go ahead and tell me that NASA Photoshop specialists got much better at image manipulation and v2.0 of the lunar map is altered. Go ahead and talk about how they have special quantum computers, given to them by star beings, that they use to change the images beyond our capability to detect. All I will say is I find your desperate need to find conspiracy where there is none sad and pathetic.

    Ok first of all….dude chill this is not a big deal.

    Second, you say they are glitches, but do blurs normally look like people, or different types of craft? You can they are imaging errors but last I checked blurs were something like this ” to Make or become unclear or less distinct” Blurs do not make humanoid looking figures or buildings, can’t imagine that is an error….and I didn’t realize you were an expert on extra-terrestrial life. And I think the fact that they spent money on it makes it all that much more convincing…and the fact that you belive we are the only advance civilization in the entire universe is absolutley rediculous! You need to come to the realization that we are not alone and if you are so closed minded that you refuse to believe it even with the evidence staring you in the face than you are the “moron” not me. And i’m not searching for conspiracy, when NASA closed down I did a small amount of digging and found it. And why would I say they have quantum computers to change images? they didnt catch many of the pictures and thats how that movie came to be.

    I believe in conspiracies that have factual evidence behind them, this is one of them. Its not a conspiracy really, more of an inconvient truth that we are being lied to everyday, and you refusing to realize that is extremely ignorant of you. And there is more evidence supporting advanced life in the universe other than us than there is disproving it so where you came up with that I have no clue. You disproved absolutley nothing.

    A good quote for you and a few others on this fourm.

    “They must find it difficult, those that take authority as truth, instead of truth as the authority”

    #14929
    Avatar of Sickor
    Sickor
    Participant

    Ken wrote:
    Sickor wrote:

    And if/when you watch the film, and if you do end up believing it you should check out the disclosure project, 120 hours worth of military testimonies and the like, amazing if you ask me.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/csetiweb

    Since that’s a different user than the user of the other video, I’ve bookmarked that link along with the link to the video. At the rate it’s going, I may end up waiting until mid-September when I’m taking some time off work. I’m reasonably open minded, but I don’t accept everything as true just because someone says it is. And being about 3.5 times as old as you and Matt, I’ve had a wee bit more life experience. (And when I was your age, I was a lot more confident that I knew just what was what than I am now.) [/quote]

    That is reasonable, and I understand that you grew up in a time where the entire planet was being lied to day in and day out so I can see why you are skeptical and others are too and thats fine I just don’t like the fact that others on this fourm are coming to conclusions without knowing all of the facts.

    #14930
    Avatar of Sickor
    Sickor
    Participant

    consider : we know that there are more planetary sistems in the universe than sand grains on all beaches of planet earth – can you really be sure that only on our sand grain is happening something interesting called life ? – i am not.

    exactly, if life can happen here, why couldn’t it happen any where else?

    #14931
    Avatar of Sickor
    Sickor
    Participant

    “They must find it difficult, those that take authority as truth, instead of truth as the authority”

    Well after reading all of these posts, I have come to the conclusion that we will have to agree to disagree.

    #14933
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    couple comments i’d like to make:

    1- the queen of espana and mr columbus made a startling discovery by pooling together tremendous resources (his time and her cash). therefore we now have america. what if those 2 people had taken i_is_j_smith’s attitude and pretended like all that existed was just what their mommies told them. hell with that. carl sagan delivered to us an extremely powerful message. open the package

    (Ken if u really want to spend time watching a youtube video start with this one)

    2- to my knowledge we do not have even 1 single fully robotic factory on Earth. do u think it might be smart to wait and make sure we work out the bugs with a terrestrial demonstration? of course it “seems” possible…

    ____________

    My Work II

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #14934
    Avatar of Dervogel707
    Dervogel707
    Participant

    No J smith you must realize that we are not the only intelligent life. Sickor covered most of things I wanted to say.

    #14935
    Avatar of Dervogel707
    Dervogel707
    Participant

    But I do have to say you are sad and pathetic J smith for being so stupid. The images were released by NASA , its so obvious how edited and blured the pics are. I dont believe they used technology from the “star beings” to edit the photos becuase they did a pretty crappy job. If they used technology from ETs to edit the photos I dont think this conspricay theory would even exist.

    #14936
    Avatar of HopDavid
    HopDavid
    Participant

    Sickor wrote:

    consider : we know that there are more planetary sistems in the universe than sand grains on all beaches of planet earth – can you really be sure that only on our sand grain is happening something interesting called life ? – i am not.

    exactly, if life can happen here, why couldn’t it happen any where else?

    [/quote]

    I rather suspect there are many civilizations in the Milky Way Galaxy. But civilizations able to travel between star systems? That is quite a different question. My guess: Very few or zero.

    However this debate is described by Bertrand Russell’s quote: “The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way.”

    Like the debate about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, there is much handwaving and little substance. Therefore I don’t regard this conversation as interesting.

    #14937
    Avatar of HopDavid
    HopDavid
    Participant

    Speich84 wrote:

    HopDavid wrote:

    Speich84 wrote:

    Everyone so far seems to want to send people into space right away which is fine, however it seems to me that developing an industrial complex in space sans humans would be the smart first move. With advances in unmanned vehicle technology there are a plethora of infrastructure ideas that could happen much sooner using drones.

    I agree.

    The state of art for AI is nowhere near being able to deal with the unforeseen problems that constantly crop up in mining. So autonomous drones are out. We’d need teleoperated drones.

    For any object but the moon, light lag can easily be 20 minutes to 40 minutes. Moon light lag is 3 seconds.

    When operating heavy equipment, fast reaction time is desirable. 3 second reaction time is maybe doable. Seems to me a 20 minute reaction time is right out.

    You also want high bandwidth for able drones. Signal strength falls with inverse square of distance. Again, the only near body that allows high bandwidth is the moon.

    Speich84 wrote:
    If anyone in this forum has paid attention to the maker-bot situation, or knows about systems like HARM 2, then you would realize that the main hurdle to get over is to figure out how to get material off of asteroids and moons. Send a system of construction out to an asteroid or Martian moon with the sole purpose of developing a small array of other construction tools. Thoughts?

    Okay, we send Maker-bot to an asteroid. Where does the thermal plastic feedstock come from? And thermal plastic isn’t adequate to make drills, shovels & other needed equipment and infra structure.

    There are 3-D printers that make metal parts. But, like Maker-bot, you need feedstock. And to provide the feedstock for 3-D printers, you need mining. If earth mining, that’s a heavy transportation cost. If feed stock from in-situ resources, that’s mining infrastructure on the asteroid or moon. Which is hard.

    [/quote]

    Pretty sure that I was not suggesting using thermal plastic for mining an asteroid or putting a maker bot in space….[/quote]

    I wasn’t suggesting that you were. My next statement was about 3D printers that make metal parts.

    My point was that 3-D printers need feed stocks. Thus extra-terrestrial mining must precede use of such devices if you want to use them to make parts from extra-terrestrial resources.

    That is not to say these aren’t game changers. I agree 3-D printers will be a key enabling technology.

    Speich84 wrote:
    simply that the concept is headed in the right direction

    Here we agree.

    Speich84 wrote:
    but the technology has not in fact been built because it has not yet been required. You defeat the requirement for instant tele-control by having automated responses to critical situations up to and including the ceasing of work to inform the operator of an error.

    Indeed there are existing technologies that make slow reaction times more forgiving: Balance and collision avoidance.

    Big Dog Robot with balance

    Google Cars Robotic cars that avoid collisions.

    But with 20 to 40 minute reaction times, a task would normally take 5 minutes could easily take days or weeks.

    And I’ll repeat that the moon’s proximity allows good bandwidth. High bandwidth is a prerequisite for able teledevices, in my opinion.

    Speich84 wrote:
    Mining the moon is much more feasible and realistic, even though I believe asteroids will be more profitable,

    Initially the most valuable space resource will be water.

    This is because of Tsiolkovsky’s rocket equation. (mass propellant+dry mass)/(dry mass) = e(delta V/exhaust velocity). Having propellant at various stages of the journey breaks the exponent in this equation.

    Orbital propellant depots make the difference between prohibitively expensive expendable vehicles and much smaller, simpler reusable vehicles.

    Thus water is a prerequisite for transportation economical enough to enjoy a profit for mining asteroidal platinum (or other rich ores asteroids have).

    And it looks like the moon has lots of water at the poles.

    Speich84 wrote:
    I would bet the farm that my replaceable unmanned miners dig the first ton of ore on the moon before any human does.

    I agree.

    Further I would say telerobots able to build lunar mines can also construct lunar habs. And the propellant they mine would make transportation to and from the moon (as well as to deep space objects like NEOs) vastly less expensive.

    Thus they would enable human presence on the moon (and elsewhere).

    This is why I’m always arguing robotic vs manned is a false dichotomy.

    #14938
    Avatar of Dervogel707
    Dervogel707
    Participant

    Hop David, why does travel between star systems seem so unlikley, just because we dont have it? Plus I believe not only in ET life in this galaxy but in the whole universe.

    Btw all, I think some thought ET life on the moon was impossible or unlikley is because I forgot to mention the ET life did not orignate from the moon but travled, or made the moon as there is substantial proof the moon is hollow and not from Earth, to the moon.

    #14941
    Avatar of Speich84
    Speich84
    Participant

    Thank you for the further discussion Hop, false dichotomy indeed. As a person incredibly addicted to Wired.com and newscientist.com news feed, including DARPA updates, I try to keep the dreamers and the innovators in the same hand without mixing them.

    Your proposal on fuel depots is absolutely neccessary, however, the reliance on water for fuel may not be. The latest focus for propulsion tech relies on metal hydrogen which is manufacturable and potentially present in asteroids and outer ring planets. Water IS of course undeniably vital to the propagation of our species.

    In turn I point to the water geuysers of the moon Ececlydus(sp?) which may contain more H2O than our own oceans…though outer ring colonization is a far view goal unfortunately. I will track down reference material and links to support my views sometime when I am not at work, >.>, but with a launch vehicle contract, moon mining and foundry tech, and EZ hab modules (metal shell with an inflateable ‘bounce castle’ type interior) building the first step to make space viable could happen in a shorter amount of time than previously expected.

    PS.

    This forum has the strangest conversations for an off-shore settlement community! ;P

    #14942
    Avatar of Speich84
    Speich84
    Participant

    Dervogel707 wrote:

    Btw all, I think some thought ET life on the moon was impossible or unlikley is because I forgot to mention the ET life did not orignate from the moon but travled, or made the moon as there is substantial proof the moon is hollow and not from Earth, to the moon.

    That makes the rational cells in my brain cry for help….unless the moon IS hollow which means that the chances for there being cheese in said vacant space have risen dramatically!

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