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Smallest individual structure that can survive in the deep ocean

Home Forums Archive Structure Designs Smallest individual structure that can survive in the deep ocean

This topic contains 116 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of Jesrad Jesrad 4 years, 4 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 91 through 105 (of 117 total)
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  • #9749
    Avatar of wesley_Bruce
    wesley_Bruce
    Participant




    A Swath hull, small waterplane area twin hull, would have both the dynamics of a spar with the sub surface volume needed for variable loads and stable buoyancy. A deep Swath hull with the legs reaching 5 meters under water would handle many waves. If we make the hull above water almost air tight with few decks and protrusions that can catch a wave then the biggest waves can wash over with out destroying the vessel. Yes you would need seat belts and warning systems but both are available. The warning can come from distributed USV fleet with wave logging. ladar and data relay. Only Americans and star trek captains seem to be unfamiliar with seat belts. Big rogue waves are rare. We can build day too day stability for a mean of 5 meter and storm survival for a mean of 20 m. While the houses in a tornado, hurricane or earthquake zone must be designed to not collapse. We rarely succeed or even try to make them so they take no damage and we almost never design them so you can continue the tea party while the worst or the danger rages.

    I think we will also need to conscider active suspensions. Cheep truck or car like suspentions on the habitats or part of it dambing roll and heave for the quraters while we leave the sun deck and boat deck to fend for themselves.

    I also have a new post on my web site discussing the question of whether one design fits all and looking at a sea stead as a fleet of systems. http://appliedimpossibilies.blogspot.com/2010/03/sea-steading-as-fleet-of-vessel-classes.html

    For everyone’s information I was involved with the original Oceania Project in a small way. I’m also in several space organisations. And I have a Degree in sustainable Development, sustainable agriculture and renewable energy, water and sewerage.

    #9750
    Avatar of Altaica
    Altaica
    Participant

    wesley_Bruce wrote:

    A Swath hull, small waterplane area twin hull, would have both the dynamics of a spar with the sub surface volume needed for variable loads and stable buoyancy. A deep Swath hull with the legs reaching 5 meters under water would handle many waves.

    I was thinking about someing like the SWATH for platforms.
    s
    mall waterplane area submeged hull maybe.

    you would build the hull so that most of the buoyancy is under the waves then you would have suports going up to the topside. You could put another laying of energy supports at the button of the topsides. so that is the main hull falls you can you the topside as a liferaft.

    P.S. Anyone know how much a cubic meter of Tropical Seawater weighs?

    Οὐκ ἐμεῦ ἀλλὰ τοῦ λόγου ἀκούσαντας ὁμολογέειν σοφόν ἐστι, ἓν πάντα εἶναι.

    #9751
    Avatar of wesley_Bruce
    wesley_Bruce
    Participant




    We probably need to take a look at WAM-V again. More data is in. It’s exceedingly effective with good sea keeping, excellent fuel range and modularity. If this can be mass produced it gives us a basic very stable mobile home sized sea stead. It may become the jeep or flat bed truck of the open ocean. As essential to sea steading, Oceanography and pacific islands development as the tractor is to farming. It gives me the feeling that we may be seeing a key technology. See: http://www.wam-v.com/

    Yes its powered and fueled but the fuel efficiency is such that as a sea stead it could loiter for years on a tank of fuel. (Actually that would be a problem given the possibility that the fuel may go bad.) Hydrogen fuel could be an option.

    In sea stead configuration it would be larger. Perhaps 50% longer and wider with a larger ‘pod’ under the arch and some Porous decking on top and either side of the pod. The ladder up the back arch could be fully enclosed or caged for safety. This would give us about 5 by 10 square meters. ~50 m2 (539 sq ft) enclosed plus about the same on the top deck. Some stowage in the pontoons near the motors may be expected.

    It would ride the biggest rogue waves like a polynesian catamaran. I.e. people in side may come away with a few bruises but that’s all. A warning ladar/ radar, padded furnishings and seat belts would help.

    One nice feature is that in calm water it can straddle other smaller vessels such as fish farms, buoys, robot boats full of cargo, party decks and my floating farm units. This makes cargo handling a cinch.

    There’s no price data but my guess is that with some mass production of subsystems and standardisation it could be under a million. Still a little pricey for a normal family but cheaper than some ideas we’re looking at. If the company finds a mass market in the pacific islands and other places the cost could drop to the price of a house. The high tech materials are getting cheaper very fast. Carbon Fibre sea steads is not out of the question.

    I’m doing a three dimentional full scale model in Second Life to figger out how much decking might be possible. See wesley farspire in SL.

    For everyone’s information I was involved with the original Oceania Project in a small way. I’m also in several space organisations. And I have a Degree in sustainable Development, sustainable agriculture and renewable energy, water and sewerage.

    #9752
    Avatar of wesley_Bruce
    wesley_Bruce
    Participant

    Altaica wrote:

    P.S. Anyone know how much a cubic meter of Tropical Seawater weighs?




    About a ton per cubic meter. Sea water doesn’t vary enough in density to mess with buoyancy numbers. Fresh waters about the same. Rain can freshen the surface of the sea a little but not enough to matter.

    PS. Anyone who loads a sea stead to above 80% of its free board capacity is asking for trouble. For a spacious vessel its possible to have a suicidal party or something like that which gets everyone killed. In Sydney harbour someone tried that a few years ago on a private boat. They had enough on board to flood the gunwale, two more got on and down she went disc jockey and all.

    Even in a totally free libertarian society the captain would get sued into bankruptcy and sent to shore. Assuming he or she hasn’t gone down with the disco. Lol.


    For everyone’s information I was involved with the original Oceania Project in a small way. I’m also in several space organisations. And I have a Degree in sustainable Development, sustainable agriculture and renewable energy, water and sewerage.

    #9757
    Avatar of vincecate
    vincecate
    Participant

    wesley_Bruce wrote:




    We probably need to take a look at WAM-V again.

    Yes, it is interesting. I too think that in mass production it could be in the million dollar range. Engines could be smaller and cheaper. With 4 days warning and 10 MPH you can get about 1000 miles to the side of a hurricane path., so that is plenty of speed to avoid storms. I imagine a lightweight structure could be attached to the top that gave more living space.

    I have yet to see video of it on 8 or 10 foot waves, though they say they have gone on 1000 mile trips, so they probably have been on real waves. But I would be more comfortable that it was really ready for open ocean if they were showing it on big waves.

    My guess is that with station keeping that kept it pointed into the major waves it would be ok to work or sleep on.

    One of the wam-v videos has a guy who says he is working on a second version. The first seemed rather good and the second version should be even better.

    This thread was titled smallest individual structure that can survive in the deep ocean. But what I really want is the cheapest for a family that is still safe and comfortable. This is a contender. We have 10 example designs for single family seasteads. I think out of those “big enough for a family but probably under $2 mil”, that the WAM-V is the most real.

    They seem to be in the Bay Area, maybe someone should try to check them out.

    http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Single_Family_Seastead

    — Vince

    #9764
    Avatar of Altaica
    Altaica
    Participant

    vincecate wrote:

    This thread was titled smallest individual structure that can survive in the deep ocean. But what I really want is the cheapest for a family that is still safe and comfortable. This is a contender. We have 10 example designs for single family seasteads. I think out of those “big enough for a family but probably under $2 mil”, that the WAM-V is the most real.

    $2 mil? and hear my SWATH still under $5000…

    Οὐκ ἐμεῦ ἀλλὰ τοῦ λόγου ἀκούσαντας ὁμολογέειν σοφόν ἐ&si

    #9766
    Avatar of vincecate
    vincecate
    Participant

    Altaica wrote:

    I was thinking about someing like the SWATH for platforms.
    s
    mall waterplane area submeged hull maybe.

    This is called a Semi-submersible. It is the most common type of floating oil platform but is usually tied to the ocean floor. If it is not its movement can get out of phase with the waves and run into trouble. Does not seem possible to make a small one that works. If you think otherwise try building some models and testing them in real waves.

    http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Semi-submersible

    #9783
    Avatar of Altaica
    Altaica
    Participant

    vincecate wrote:

    This is called a Semi-submersible. It is the most common type of floating oil platform but is usually tied to the ocean floor. If it is not its movement can get out of phase with the waves and run into trouble. Does not seem possible to make a small one that works. If you think otherwise try building some models and testing them in real waves.

    Have any links? I can’t find anything on this “movement can get out of phase with the waves” thing

    Οὐκ ἐμεῦ ἀλλὰ τοῦ λόγου ἀκούσαντας ὁμολογέειν σοφόν ἐ&si

    #9785
    Avatar of wesley_Bruce
    wesley_Bruce
    Participant

    vincecate wrote:

    This is called a Semi-submersible. It is the most common type of floating oil platform but is usually tied to the ocean floor. If it is not its movement can get out of phase with the waves and run into trouble. Does not seem possible to make a small one that works. If you think otherwise try building some models and testing them in real waves.

    http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Semi-submersible




    Not with active computer controlled suspension and wave prediction system. Sure you need backups on your backups but that’s be my point of the post. Active suspension systems have been around for cars, trucks and even trains for a few years. We now know that they can be programmed to handle complex wave states at relatively high frequencies, rutted roads and slippery surfaces. Wave frequency is lower giving interesting options. Active damping of buildings in high winds and earth quakes are also working out. In this case they use tuned mass dampers and sliding foundations.

    Getting out of phase with the waves is a real problem for a dumb mechanical system but add an active system and you can adjust. One interesting option is to sling a habitat under an arch based frame on a swath hull. Like a hammock on an 17th century craft. Some of these vessels had very complex bunksfor the officers though some did not work perfactly. I’ve seen slung tables and chair in scetches, even a slung queen sized bed have been done( for a real queen). There are stabilised bunks on some racing yachts. One liner had a central ball room that was fully gimbaled so it did not move. It worked but it may have been too ambitious. It may be viable to come up with two separate systems one for roll and one for heave. Both would cover the core and quarters leaving the weather decks with less damping.


    For everyone’s information I was involved with the original Oceania Project in a small way. I’m also in several space organisations. And I have a Degree in sustainable Development, sustainable agriculture and renewable energy,water and sewerage.

    #9786
    Avatar of vincecate
    vincecate
    Participant

    wesley_Bruce wrote:




    Not with active computer controlled suspension and wave prediction system. Sure you need backups on your backups but that’s be my point of the post. Active suspension systems have been around for cars, trucks and even trains for a few years. We now know that they can be programmed to handle complex wave states at relatively high frequencies, rutted roads and slippery surfaces. Wave frequency is lower giving interesting options. Active damping of buildings in high winds and earth quakes are also working out. In this case they use tuned mass dampers and sliding foundations.

    Getting out of phase with the waves is a real problem for a dumb mechanical system but add an active system and you can adjust.

    I agree that active controls are very interesting. Designing it so that when parts fail you are not at risk becomes really important. In practice I think computer controlled stabilization is too dangerous or costly for early seasteads. In the long term it could well be the way to go.

    I have seriously thought about suspending my 26 foot boat below a tri-pod WaterWalker with some system to dampen out movement.

    For this design http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/User:Vincecate/FloatingVilla I think that some big stabilizers similar to http://www.boatstabilizers.net/ hanging from each of the 3 legs would work well. With those you could make the floats more spar shaped and not get out of phase. If those stabilizers fail, the seastead moves a bit more with the waves in that corner but does not become unsafe if they are not too long and skinny. I would want a design like that, where stabilizers failing does not make you unsafe.

    If the floats are wider in the middle, not just a smooth pole, then up/down motion can make a wave and get rid of energy. This will reduce the possibility of getting way out of phase.

    When I imagine my family moving onto a very early seastead, having critical computer controlled things that can put my family at risk if they fail seems really bad. I think I can get enough stability without it.

    – Vince

    #9787
    Avatar of vincecate
    vincecate
    Participant

    Altaica wrote:

    Have any links? I can’t find anything on this “movement can get out of phase with the waves” thing

    “Heave” is where the whole platform goes up and down. Since it does not do this in phase with the waves this is a problem. Any design with a small waterline area has this issue. You can just search google for “heave platform”.

    http://www.google.com.ai/#hl=en&q=heave+platform&aq=&oq=heave+platform&fp=5258e1bd32fadaf

    — Vince

    #9788
    Avatar of vincecate
    vincecate
    Participant

    vincecate wrote:

    Since it does not do this in phase with the waves this is a problem. Any design with a small waterline area has this issue.

    ]

    The whole point of small waterline area is to not go up and down with each wave that passes. But each wave does have some influence, even if smaller. And if a series of waves of the wrong frequency come by their cumulative smaller influence can get the structure bobbing up and down, unless steps are taken to deal with this issue.

    So if it takes your structure 10 seconds to bob up and down once and the waves are coming about every 10 seconds, then the bob can get worse and worse, unless you have something to dampen out the heave.

    – Vince

    #9791
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    vincecate wrote:
    And if a series of waves of the wrong frequency come by their cumulative smaller influence can get the structure bobbing up and down, unless steps are taken to deal with this issue.

    And you end up with something like this: Tacoma Bridge

    #9797
    Avatar of Altaica
    Altaica
    Participant

    vincecate wrote:

    vincecate wrote:

    Since it does not do this in phase with the waves this is a problem. Any design with a small waterline area has this issue.

    ]

    The whole point of small waterline area is to not go up and down with each wave that passes. But each wave does have some influence, even if smaller. And if a series of waves of the wrong frequency come by their cumulative smaller influence can get the structure bobbing up and down, unless steps are taken to deal with this issue.

    So if it takes your structure 10 seconds to bob up and down once and the waves are coming about every 10 seconds, then the bob can get worse and worse, unless you have something to dampen out the heave.

    – Vince

    [/quote]

    I found the problem. You’re a dunce.

    Οὐκ ἐμεῦ ἀλλὰ τοῦ λόγου ἀκούσαντας ὁμολογέειν σοφόν ἐ&si

    #9801
    Avatar of vincecate
    vincecate
    Participant

    Altaica wrote:

    You found a graph showing that two waves of the same magnitude and “180 degrees out of phase” add to zero, so now you think that if a floating platform is 15 feet up when the ocean wave is 15 feet down that it is the same as if there was no wave? Really?

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