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size and shape of the seasteading platform

Home Forums Research Engineering size and shape of the seasteading platform

This topic contains 47 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of ellmer - http://yook3.com ellmer – http://yook3.com 3 months, 2 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 48 total)
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  • #23188
    Profile photo of Ken Sims
    Ken Sims
    Keymaster

    What is wrong with a 80′ or a 120′ or a 200′ seastead, population from 10 to 50 that we can REALLY build in the next few years? And keep on building them, attach them to each other, and grow little by little, and by doing so we’ll be GETTING SOMEWHERE instead of still just keep on talking about it and getting nowhere…

     
    Actually doing something instead of just talking about it? Now you’re just being crazy! :)

    #23189
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Ocean said

    And what happen to the incremental & modular seasteading ideology that at some point we all seem to agree upon?

    What is wrong with a 80′ or a 120′ or a 200′ seastead, population from 10 to 50 that we can REALLY build in the next few years? And keep on building them, attach them to each other, and grow little by little, and by doing so we’ll be GETTING SOMEWHERE instead of still just keep on talking about it and getting nowhere…

     
    I was playing in cement outside today, water is still ice cold, seeing as how it was 29F at sunup. It is my intention to build a piece at a time, altho i have not found a way to ask the uscg about registration for a boat that will change it’s dimensions at least once a year. But a registration for a single boat that i can unbolt and relocate in sections is perfect for avoiding a situation where i’d need to rent on-land space for boat assembly after trucking it down there. After that, tying up multiple separately registered identical vessels on the water seems easy, regardless of who happens to own them.
     
    I finished reading the 1970 usa military proposal for a floating support base. They came to a lot of the same numbers i did regarding construction points. It is a little dated, seeing as how innovations in offshore oil industry hadn’t yet happened when that was published (heave plates, for instance).

    #23190
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Kat,

    The best thing to do is call the CG or go in person there and talk to them, since whatever you are building will fall into “new boat construction” and depending what you are going to use the boat for, (pleasure or commercial) if you want to register it, the CG might have to inspect it DURING THE CONSTRUCTION PROCESS to give you certification. My advise to you is go talk to them before building anything…

    For the last week I’ve been looking for the CG regulations regarding non profit organizations and all I find is ambiguous and nonsensical…12 nm offshore location looks better and better by rge day. Anyway, during those searches I did find out quite amazing facts (kind of not related to seasteading).

    For example, did anybody know this?

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-14/tax-exempt-firm-gets-600-million-profit-flying-first-class.html

    Unreal. ABS is a “non profit”. Wow!

    #23191

    The starting point of this chat was the quest for the “smallest unit safe at sea”, i published a rescue pod shell foto. Then we went to “comfy at sea” we ended up in 400m size or bigger. So if we are now back at “small start” again we need to have clear that small (for a surface floating item) is automatically “only comfy in a bay”. So we have now went trough the process that got TSI to the “baystead first” approach. We also have clear now why the transition from baystead to open sea stead should be in the 400-800m range when the build exceed ship size signifficantly. The question that is up now is the TRANSITION question how do we get from a pod size to city size in a continous process and this brings us back to the question of MODULAR and how we define modular – although rafting up modules is a feasible way for a baystead – there are better ways to ensure “continuous growth” of a floating venture. Among those is “ongoing slip forming”, “dot printing”, and similar methods have been mentioned. The best way to ensure transition from small to big is to do something that “proyects into the future” and makes investors want to be part of the project instead of doing something “goofy” – the best example is Richi Sowas bottle island – it does not grow any longer because it is clear that there are strikt LIMITS what it can “become in a future” so in a sense its existance is rendered “useless” by the fact that it can NOT make a transition to a floating city. Therefore the capability of performing the TRANSITION from small to big from baystead to open seas stead, should be seen as the key to the project of “building a seastead”. If you raft up bottles or houseboats you will NEVER make a successful transition to a floating city in open ocean and possible investors who have a basic knowledge of marine affairs can see that inmediatly nobody will invest into a “no future venture” Therefore it is key to make the first small piece so strong and so credible already that the claim “what you see here is the first step to colonize the oceans” will provoke investor interest – not a laugh storm. It is also key to put a working business and finance model on that piece as early as possible because like in a organism, growth can only take place if it is supported by a “strong beating heart” that can bear with the load of sustained growth. All this makes the “credibility to investors” the key feature to power the transition. So forget “bolting a couple of standard pontoons together” “use industrial barges” and that kind of “obvious solutions” that have “cero projection into a future” right away. You can even have a ocean crossing platform (like the floating neutrinos) and still be miles away from the goal to make a “credible and sucessful transition” to a floating city “VENICE style” where developers and investors would want to be a part of it. So again what sets a seastead apart from a “vessel” a “barge” or a “industrial pontoon raft up” is a strong beating scalable economic heart that develops on board and opens the door to a brigh oceanic future attracting investment. Khalifa and Palm Dubai show the way how you get marine infrastructure investment and real estate invetment on board. If you fail to build something that wakes up investor interest – seasteading will not happen. So build something that supports your claims (oceanic future starts here) make it DIFFERENT to anything that investors have seen before, but make it sufficient familiar in technology that it will not be percieved as “outlandish” either. CREDIBILITY is the key. The best way (i can think of in the moment) to get all those factors into a reasonable equilibrium and start very small right away – is the Ramform seastead built in concrete honeycomb and shell technology.
    Read more about the Ramfrom:
    http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t51926036/establishing-a-ramform-floating-base-in-the-high-seas-concre/
    See floating oceanic concret shell and honeycomb structures:
    http://www.pinterest.com/wellmer/oceanic-concrete-shell-building/
    See honeycomb shell structures:
    http://www.pinterest.com/wellmer/concrete-shell-building-thin-shell-domes-honeycomb/
    See Richi Sowas bottle island:
    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSpiral_Island&ei=cZotU7GvDNHNqQGej4CgAQ&usg=AFQjCNGCYDWvQDhjiYHsARWRut0zIWZErg&bvm=bv.62922401,d.eW0
    Read more about how Venice is a historic model for seasteading:
    http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t56710025/venice-italy-how-to-do-instructions-for-seasteading-from-his/

    #23260

    Today ive seen an awesome video.
    Please look at this.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odmFO7pJ-RQ#t=159

    #23261
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    And,…so what? Big freaking deal. What’s so “awesome” about it?

    #23262
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    ellmer,

    This is the same old story. We covered this long time ago. You believe the ramform is the key to seasteading, than do it. Put a business plan together and sell it. So far, TSI’s baystead costs $500/sq.ft = $21,7 Million/acre for the platform only. Give them a better deal and you’re in business.

    #23264

    shell construction
    Ramazan, the video is a nice illustration how you can build a shell of any form modular – if you increase the diameter of the rings steadyly you can grow it to ANY size including several kilometers of lenght and your “construction site size” will never exceed the size of a shoebox the transport of the modules can be in the trunk of a car and adding modules while the build is floating in the water can also easyly be solved. You can add “shell elements” for ever. It should also be no major problem to add the modules without “grinding against the structure”. When we talked modular here in seasteading some 3 years ago the “ideas for modular” where just not radical enough – people always thought in boxes triangles hexagons in a kind of “lego sistem” repeating the same part over and over again – this was just a lack of capacity to think outside the box – the video shows exactly how you can overcome lego sistems and get modular without any “form restrictions” you can build anything you can imagine modular. Shells like the above foto are inside the “feasibility range” of such a process. You can also think in just creating the form for the concrete cast with that process and then reuse the plastics to create new form parts over and over again.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odmFO7pJ-RQ#t=159
    Most of all this kind of technology has potential to get investor interest to a seastead even if it is just a few squaremeter of size – investor interest is the key in “transition capacity” which is key for reaching city size.
    see more about transition capacity:
    http://www.seasteading.org/forum-list/topic/big-things-have-small-beginnings-transition-capabilty-key-feature/
    This is definitly a thing to keep in mind.

    #23265

    honeycomb floating structurewind turbine
    Ocean, the key for seasteading is not “to float out something” the Tanka, Moken, Uru, Neutrinos, Sowa, are “floating out something” for 1200 years now and never went to a “powerful sea city type Venice”. The key is floating out something that draws investor interest because it has a “potential to be important in the future” – this is what makes the canoe above “relevant” while other canoes (built of wood) are “irrelevant” to seasteading.
    See more about the logics behind that.
    http://www.seasteading.org/forum-list/topic/big-things-have-small-beginnings-transition-capabilty-key-feature/
    I am not a “ramform missionary” you can put ocean colonization on the fast track in many ways.
    But you can not put it on the fast track without doing something “relevant” and “interesting for investors”.
    honeycomb building
    A sea city should project its purpose with cutting edge architecture…

    #23266
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    ellmer,

    Time will tell what the key for seasteading is.

    We have to keep in mind what seasteading is, as defined by TSI:

    “The Seasteading Institute is a nonprofit 501(c)(3), working to enable seasteading communities – floating cities – which will allow the next generation of pioneers to test new ideas for government.”

    There is no definition there of what this floating cities will be or will look like or if they should be powerful or important. As Wayne Gramlich (one of the founders of TSI) simply put it,..” there will be many types of seasteads out there”,… or something like that, it was long time ago :)

    I think that the original idea of seasteading was mostly centered around the need to pioneer new ideas for government, and not so much around the size and form of the physical seastead,…Or at least this is my understanding of it. If this observation is correct and as an example only, than a 40 houseboats raft up 15 nm from shore, population 130, making their own rules and governing themselves, it is a seastead. Whatever an outside will think of it, it will be irrelevant for the seasteaders, if they are happy and if such arrangement works fine for them.

    The relevance of Sowa, Neutrinos, etc. “seasteading like” projects is mostly inspirational, “look, it can be done” type of conclusions. What I am trying to say here is for people to be aware what they wish for when it comes to seasteading. If it will start as a “movement”, it will be one, and the participants can experiment with it. If it starts purely as a business, it will be one, and the only “self governance testing” will be in the HOA agreement they will sign for their million dollars condo on the water.

    Personally, I think that the “key to seasteading” lies somewhere in between this two choices.

    #23277

    doing something that inspires
    Do something that inspires, attracts, and has a potential to be big – its not the size of the platform that matters its the size of its capacity to be something important.

    #23278
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Ellmer, floating-lagoon-house.jpg would look very pretty as Ocean’s shareware vacation houses behind the keys, but when a 5ft wave comes along all that carpet will get wet.
     
    I was using the forum search to try and locate the url for Home Depot fiber cement which i had mentioned. I was at the store yesterday to buy some of the fiber cement, but they don’t have it anymore. They have a fiber concrete, which i don’t see as a good idea for making floaties with walls under 2 inches thick. The gravel in concrete is great for compressive strength, but gravel will simply clog up the pour in such a narrow mold, and i am wanting tensile strength. Anyhow, this forum’s search didn’t find me mentioning the fiber cement at Home Depot. It did find someone else making floaties (round balls) of a particular cement from Home Depot, and the store quit carrying that cement. The search also found everything we have been saying the last 6 months has been said here 6 years earlier.
     
    So basically, what i have learned is: Adding portland makes the cement less porous, but it may shrink so much it cracks up in the mold (remove the mold asap?). Adding “mortar clay” will make the cement less porous, but no one sells it, and it may weaken the cement. Some cement advertised as “crack resistant” or “non-shrink” has reactive materials which create air bubbles, which is the same as saying “porous”. Glass fibers can be etched away by the alkalinity of the lime, so they must be coated the same as steel would be. Poly fibers stretch too much to be stable and permanent in salt water. If you can buy it today for a prototype, it will be unavailable after it has passed all tests you do on it. Marketting people will use different words for the same thing, or the same words for different things, and they will simply omit the important data, but they will say everything they sell is perfect for whatever you are doing.

    #23279

    concrete-honeycomb-shell-raft
    The square glass house design is for the Cholon Lagoon, Bahia de Barbacoas, Caño del Loro, and Bahia de Cartagena, San Bernardo, Baru. The whole area is outside the path of hurricanes those bays are big bays (many squaremiles) protected from ocean waves by coral reefs, surrounded by dampening mangrove fields, so you can count with a “uninterrupted fishpond ambient” during decades.
    This of “best of the Continent” calm water features made Cartagena the naval center of the new world during the time of the spanish overseas empire. You can not do that in Florida where hurricanes are part of the deal. The suggestion for a shell that can deal with a bit of waves would be rather like in the picture above.
    To see more about the cholon lagoon and similar calm water features around cartagena check out the “Navegante Cholon”
    http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t47932816/navegante-cholon/

    Spanish overseas empire in the new world.

    Skyline of Cartagena today, a modern city with a strong marine tradion looking out to the sea. Latin Americas most promising emerging economy, best investor protection, Seasteaders welcome.
    Offshoring, Floating Business Headquarters, Yachts, Global Citicens, Welcome. Oceanic business development key player network.

    http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t56680633/the-reasons-why-oceanic-business-is-the-next-big-thing-to-co/

    Seasteading outpost Belize
    http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t46775796/seasteading-outpost-belize-a-practical-approach-how-to-find-/

    #23280
    #23281
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Ellmer, it’s as if you are using this forum only as a place to promote your own site.

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