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Simple design principle

Home Forums Archive TSI Engineering Simple design principle

This topic contains 111 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of shredder7753 shredder7753 3 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 61 through 75 (of 112 total)
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  • #12460

    there are basicly 3 sistems.

    1)Military subs have dynamic stabilisation by rudders (works only when moving fast)

    2) Ben Franklin has a deep ballast keel (like a sailboat).

    3) Mighty Servant, floating drydocks etc, work with “stick out boyancy” for stabilisation.

    On a structure as you proposed you can not have case 1 (lack of speed) you can not have case 2 (no deep keel available for ballast ) so you should have case 3. as a stabilization method.

    Having “stick out towers” on the corners will not only give you stability when submerged, it will also provide ventilation and access to the submerged structure.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #12457
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    well i painted the top green and put some stuff on it for perspective but this 3d model has 0.5m thick reinforced concrete all around the outside and its protected from compressive forces by concrete columns throughout. imagine it without the green or the stuff. also, picture at the bottom of the wall protecting the top deck – there are some large holes to allow water to escape when you raise it up from below the surface.

    estimating – reinforced concrete and ballast pretty much make up the entire operable structure, much like Ellmers orbs. the volume of concrete is approx. 11,000 cu.m.. The cubic volume of interior space, completely free of concrete is approx. 27,000 cu.m. the total floor space is approx. 9,000 sq.m. (interior) plus 4,500 sq. m. (on top). i googled for the price of reinforced concrete but found nothing.

    ~180 people

    on the tristead you dont tear down walls. separate tristeads are connected by hinges. if one group in the middle finally says “we’ve had enough of this community”, they unlock their hinges, take on some ballast water, sink, and use some rented removable azipods to relocate their ‘stead. or the overall community might decide to grow with lanes, so you can just be pulled away when you or your group (depending one the size) chooses.

    check out on google earth N25deg / W85deg – I like this area for a research tristead (or other seastead) because it can demonstrate how life would be even in the most dangerous conditions. Plus it is 210 nm offshore. And the best part is that the supply lines are well established in the Gulf of Mexico, with hundreds of existing oil rigs there. centrally located for all scientists in North and South America.

    Jason you said that the substeads are expandable in 3 dimensions. “Each community would then share the expense of the connective structures but each ‘stead would be able to break away if desired”. think about that: those connecting structures are hugely expensive. they have to be very strong, and they have no value except to get you from one stead to another. with mine you could just use a cheap removable bridge. frankly i dont see the advantage of substeads over tristeads for n> 10 people.

    #12462
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    u think it could have like a triangular shaped deep keel? i just wanted to be able to play with some other ideas for access and ventilation, such as a hatch.

    (our perspective here is from under the water looking up)

    hybrid solar lighting video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ5MiLqb5VE

    #12463
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    with this design, each tristead needs to be programmed so that if any module becomes unhinged it automatically gains enough ballast water to drop below the others. that will keep it from bouncing/ damaging adjacent units.

    also if any module becomes a danger to other units they can elect to unhinge from it. any of your 3 neighbors unhinges, the other two also unhinge automatically, and you fall away.

    this image is really messed up but … oh well:

    #12466
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    i couldnt agree more that we need to design our structure to withstand the “100 year storm” – or greater. thats one of the issues i have with the crapstead… ahem, clubstead. Otherwise im trying to boil your last comment down to the key points. i’ll give it a shot:

    a- the tristead is a candidate for passing the “100 year storm” test. it floats, its made out of thick reinforced concrete all around. it will have a sealable hatch and be able to sink below the surface. ALL of that stuff on the top could be washed away by the worst storms without any threat to the people inside or the actual structure. my guestimation is that that would happen every 5-10 years or so (every Hurricane Andrew). no big deal lay some new astroturf and screw down some new plastic trees. im not gonna cry about it. the deck is not designed to be kept dry at all times, but most of the time you can sit out there and relax or have a catch when its sunny. who wants to go outside in the middle of a storm anyway, even on land?

    one big difference between this and a surface ship is that a surface ship will bear the brunt of the nasty waves. this structure says “ah fuggit” and lets those waves role over it.

    b- “ad infinitum” – the pictures above show 32 tristeads. currently, with this design thats about as many as i could push it. logistical issues like food, electricity, transportation start to get hairy with this design once you have too many. BUT – with the trangular shape (not square, not pentagonal, and not hexagonal) the surface can always flex up and down with the ocean swells. remember that i proposed hinges (long ones). with hinges you only have maybe up to a few inches play.

    im strongly opposed to mobility among seasteads. one major reason is that the propulsion system is a gigantic expense. not just building it in but but operation and maintenance – let alone the space it takes up. is it a ship or a homestead on the high seas? on the rare ocasion you have to move cant you hire a 3rd party tug boat (competitively bid)? i think we can and we must design seasteads that can withstand extreme conditions – and i see it as part of the mission of TSI to do so.

    when it comes to size, these are about 100m long on each side, 328 ft. is that close enought to your 200′ mark?

    Rich

    #12465
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    about the whole concept of “tiling” modules together, we have to keep in mind that this was never done before @ this scale and also out in the open ocean.(or @ last I haven’t heard or seen it anywhere). So, it is fair to say that we are venturing in uncharted marine engineering teritories. While playing with my kitefloats design, I was also thinking that rafting them up can be done “ad infinitum”, very similar to the above tristead design that Richard posted. On second thoughts, I am a bit skeptical about this method because the whole structure will flex a lot in heavy seas. In hurricane conditions, the waves are random, whith other words will be hitting the structure from all the direction, creating huge stress forces to the point of structural collapse, even if the connections between the modules(whatever they are) are holding. One way to avoid that might be to definately increase the freeboard of the modules (by the way, Richard, your tristead freeboard should be @ least 5 times higher than shown – feedback not criticism lol:) and also after the connection trying to make the whole structure “monolithical” by pouring concrete heavy on top of it and increase the freeboard even more around the outer edges.Even so, that slab of concrete will flex too and might have issues.

    The world’s largest ship was Knock Nevis @ 1300 ft and change (now scrapped). And even that big they were avoiding storms by navigating far away from their path. Even if we can build something to top it off, @1500′-2000′ how can we be sure that the structure “will take the 100 years storm”, (as I’ve heard that reassuring phrase around here)? Keep in mind that no good captain wants to “test” the limit of his ship since the sea will always win. But being stationary, one day, that big one will hit you, no doubt about it. It’s just a matter of time. So, the structure WILL be put to test, willing or not! If, Let’s say 2000′ by then, 5000-10000 people on board and couple of billions dollar in the making, that is a BIG risk to take. How can it be justifed? And for what?

    By the way, look @ Cyclon Yasi, a category 5 by now approching Australia. http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/weather-satellite-image-courtesy-Japan-Meteorological-Agency-shows-tropical-cyclone/photo//110201/ids_photos_ts/r2971317796.jpg//s:/nm/20110201/wl_nm/us_australia_cyclone_13. I wouldn’t want to be @ sea in the path of that monster….

    That is why, by looking @ all this variables and unknowns, I prefer to be in the safe side by keeping the modules around 200′ (the kitefloats) and go for a mobile situation, which will also provide for stationary alternative anway,as long as the weather is good. When 8 x 200 footers are build, raft them up under a permanent connection @ around 700′. When 8 x 700 footers are built, they can be rafted up to to form a 2300′ huge seastead. I don’t know if the big one should be made permanent or not @ that point. But it really doesn’t matter since, the way seasteading goes, it might never happen :) Or if it will happen one day, we will all be long gone by then.

    #12467
    Profile photo of Pastor_Jason
    Pastor_Jason
    Participant

    I was going to ask about the surface area ontop of your tristead. If everything washes away on a submerge, that means you can’t use the space for crops or buildings. Maybe astro turf and a few plastic trees aren’t much of a loss but that helicopter probably is. Makes me question the use of this space considering the extra cost needed to make this flat area stand up to the increased water pressure of a dive (even a shallow one).

    Since there are no seastead cities or even small towns currently in operation my first concern is how to develop a SFS (single family seastead) with mobility. If that grows into a few of us traversing the ocean like a bunch of seas gypsies, so be it. Once we’ve got enough of us floating to want to settle a spot more perminently, then we can tackle some of these questions. Since we’ll already be living on the seas I imagine we’ll be in a better position to answer the questions brought up now.

    Since Seasteading is an exercise in personal liberty and freedom, safety and mobility are some important concerns. A mobile substead would fit that and I would think the Tri-stead would handle mobility well if it were added.

    Live Well!

    -Jason

    #12469
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    PJ – considering your favorable attitude toward Ellmers substead, im a little surprised at your reaction to the tristead. certainly nobody would need to be told to move their 5 million dollar helicopter before the storm washes it away. it just goes without saying that nothing on the top of the tristead is crucial to its operation except the hatch. if that 100 year or even a once every year storm shows up on radar, no dipshit is going to leave the helicopter on the deck. it goes to shore, wherever all the other local helicopters go during a hurricane. but again you do not need a helicopter to live happily on a tristead.

    as for crops and stuff – it is not likely for anyone who lives on a substead or a tristead to rely 100% on crops they grow themselves. so sure, when the biggest storms come along that actually push a wave over the deck, you will lose whatever supplemental crops you may have had at the time. send the family up top to gather what they can and seal the hatch until tommorrow when the storm is gone.

    this is frontier life. you kinda have to be “with it”.

    #12468
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    specialy when it will come down to building them. The relative “simplicity” of the design will make it easy to just mass produce them. (Wil location comes to mind for this purpose). I would go with a equilateral triangle as a base though.(or maybe it is so but the perspective of the picture is distorting it).

    In terms of mobility vs. stationary, we all know my position here,…Keep in mind that trying to move the whole structure using a seagoing tug will be much, much more expensive then having individual propultion. First, you might need a handfull of those tugs to move it. Second, just to “call” them in, lets say even only 200 nm offshore (you got to be outside the EEZ , yeap?) will cost big bucks in charging for diesel, the boat time and crew. Then, by the time the whole deal is done, and depending how far the whole structure will be moved, it will cost a fortune. The further you are from land and the further you want to move ‘em, the more money the whole gig will cost. In the long run, individual propultion will be cheaper and WILL save a lots of money.

    The “green” area should be up on top, on the upper deck. Not to postulate this, but it’s logical to do so if you want it dry and protected from the elements. Otherwise, the seawater will kill all them “veggies”. :) I think a nomadic life can be achived on those tristeads (as PJ envisioned). By rafting up 2 of them or 8 to a rhomboid raft up formation they can be navigated anywhere on the world’s oceans. If “flottilas” of those are built and a good protected location is chosen for a future stationary seastead state-nation (Saya de Malha Bank area comes to mind as a prime candidate – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saya_de_Malha_Bank), then if money is available (see TSI :) I guess it can be done.

    Whithout trying to hijack Richard design, but just beause a picture is worth a thousand words, this is what I am talking about.

    Note: For the above raft up (2 tristeads), only one tristead needs an engine.

    Note: For the above raft up (8 tristeads), only 2 tristeads need an engine (a twin screw, since the bigger size). So, actually only 2 out of 8 tristeads should have an engine when built.

    #12470
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    oceanopolis – kudos to u, man! u can use the triangle shape any time u want. im only gonna b pissed if someone else is making money off it and im not. or if someone uses one to attack me, that would suck.

    so- some of the problems that we solved with this thread are the need for it to flex. with your new design i cannot see where the rafted tri’s can flex when large waves pass by (are these in the 200-300 ft range?). they have to be able to flex without banging into each other. great pictures tho, dude. glad to see somebody warming up to the tristead.

    if you’re using sketchup, could you just put a couple things in the picture so we can visualize the dimensions easier?

    one thing we all need to keep in mind is that there needs to be some extra money on tap. when something goes wrong (and i mean “when” not “if”) you have to be ready to say: “damn, didnt see that coming. lets give it another shot”. you need a few dollars just to be prepared. the way some people talk its like theyre ready to just go for it. they could just as easily buy a used 40′ boat and cruise on out to international waters. doesnt have to be pretty. i dont see why they need this website.

    what do you guys think is the best size for a trial-tristead? is 10m per side big enough? would 1 interior level do the trick or is it best to have 2 even for the first one?

    #12471
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    not to show off or anything, but maybe this would be a good proof of design concept (4000sq. ft of interior space per trystead):

    #12472
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    great article about mooring:

    http://www.professionalmariner.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=420C4D38DC9C4E3A903315CDDC65AD72&nm=Archives&type=Publishing&mod=Publications::Article&mid=8F3A7027421841978F18BE895F87F791&tier=4&id=8CADDDC761F94610BEEBA2B9D46A9BCB

    #12473
    Profile photo of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    there are basicly 3 sistems.

    1)Military subs have dynamic stabilisation by rudders (works only when moving fast)

    2) Ben Franklin has a deep ballast keel (like a sailboat).

    3) Mighty Servant, floating drydocks etc, work with “stick out boyancy” for stabilisation.

    On a structure as you proposed you can not have case 1 (lack of speed) you can not have case 2 (no deep keel available for ballast ) so you should have case 3. as a stabilization method.

    Having “stick out towers” on the corners will not only give you stability when submerged, it will also provide ventilation and access to the submerged structure.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    How about using Geometric Boyancy/stabilization?

    If the craft is more wide than it is tall,

    then can balance the pitch with internal ballast,

    also would be safe for being near surface,

    and there more room available when tiled together.

    Also it becomes more of a bungalow,

    with the feeling of more space,

    as you can see it.

    going up and down stairs,

    is not only a hassle but also a liability,

    if we have some baby crawling around,

    it’s best they stay on a flat ground floor.

    otherwise have to put up stairwell fences and all that.

    I’m also really hoping on having an indoor garden,

    So I was wondering, can we simply pile the dirt onto the floor?

    only need about 30cm topsoil to grow trees and things like that.

    I was thinking could dig dirt away for repairing holes and such,

    seems to me that holes would probably be easiest to fix from the outside anyhow,

    seeing as that water flows inward, some mix of marine-grade cement can plug it.

    another possible detriment could be that plant-roots have a habit of cracking rocks *shrugs*.

    So I guess it would be best to have it a fair distance away from the walls.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #12475
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    That’s deep!

    #12476
    Profile photo of tusavision
    tusavision
    Participant

    shredder7753 wrote:

    both of our ideas are missing something – but i dont know what it is yet.

    Finite Element Analysis?

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