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Simple design principle

Home Forums Archive TSI Engineering Simple design principle

This topic contains 111 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of shredder7753 shredder7753 3 years, 8 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 112 total)
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  • #1438
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    to me its obvious – there is only one way to design a seastead:

    a) floatation and systems go on the bottom.

    b) living space is next.

    c) park-like OPEN AIR ENVIRONMENT ON TOP

    whats really gets under my skin is, for example, the clubstead design. like many designs it has such a nice pretty visual appearance. but what kind of family could you raise there? it has no open space to play. you cant play frisbee with your dog. you cant even play catch with your kids. i think clubstead really sucks. it was concieved so that every apartment could have a window. who the hell cares about a window that much? you are on the ocean. i repeat, it is the ocean. nuthin changes except for the weather. even the building where i live has a tv channel you can turn on to see thru a camera aimed at our own parking lot. that system is well within budget for any seastead.

    also – anyone who thinks poor people are gonna go and start their own seastead has to be a freekin yahoo!

    please dont steal my picture. i will find you. i think i’ll call this a richstead: richsteading!

    #12344
    Profile photo of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    ya, the engineering community here at seasteading,

    has long since shown that platform seasteads are a waste of money.

    they have large chunks of unusable space, and high startup cost.

    Also note with your design, that there are high-winds on the sea,

    so if you don’t have the large structures to get in the way,

    might simply get your ball, frisbee or worse blown away.

    far more economical are modular floating islands,

    which can be made by connecting together concrete structures,

    like boats, submersibles and submarines.

    it would look like a floating island,

    could have bays to act as a breakwater.

    also startup cost is $10,000 per person,

    or 330 euro about $500 per ton, with a minimum of 20 tons per person,

    the going price of Ellmers concrete submarines.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #12349
    Profile photo of Alan
    Alan
    Participant

    shredder wrote:
    who the hell cares about a window that much? you are on the ocean.

    I agree. About a year ago I crossed the Black Sea, taking about a day and a half.

    About half way through this trip, I went outside to take in the scenery.

    There was none.

    While there may occasionally be reasons to look outside (moving near land, other seasteads or ships, whales swimming by), most people won’t need a window for a view.

    Natural light can be had from windows looking inward (where there will also be better views), or it can be piped in.

    #12352
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    [response to elspru]

    im strugglin to find where platform seasteads r wasteful. somebody gimme a link. r u saying they have large chunks of unusable space because they put buildings on top and that the buildings break apart the usable space? mine doesnt have that problem. sorry to be captain obvious here but on the days where wind kicks up and its raining you are going to be inside anyway – no matter what type of seastead you build.

    also you were talking about modular. here is the same concept adapted to be more modular (on a spar). one module has its own bubble:

    #12354

    Just try to see it that way – you have 1 cubic meter of semisubmersible (cost 331 euro)(red part of your drawing) then 10 m of column to lift your platform above the waves ( 600 euro)(blue part of your drawing) to have finally a squaremeter of platform structure (500 euro)(green part of your drawing) to get one squaremeter of platform suspended a dozend meters above the waves at tremendous cost – and you will use that “most expensive squarmeter in real estate ever” to put some earth on it , plant a bush so your dog can have a leak as only use of this squaremeter?

    And after some 5 years of use salt and corrosion will make that your ( most expensive dog toilet ever) goes below the waves.

    Do you really think this will happen?…

    Even for billion dollar industries like the oil/gas industry using elevated platforms is too expensive – they are going for more economic alternatives like barges and for a good reasons…

    The better alternative is make a semisub (red) and live in it. Or make a column (blue) (flip, sea-orbiter) and live in it. Or make a platform at sea level (green) – (barge, nkossa, adriatic, ) and live in/on it.

    The key to cost reduction is make ONE structure that solves it all, instead of making THREE structures to hold you suspended in the air on a open platform in the middle of the sea.

    #12357
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    Just try to see it that way – you have 1 cubic meter of semisubmersible (cost 331 euro)(red part of your drawing) then 10 m of column to lift your platform above the waves ( 600 euro)(blue part of your drawing) to have finally a squaremeter of platform structure (500 euro)(green part of your drawing) to get one squaremeter of platform suspended a dozend meters above the waves at tremendous cost – and you will use that “most expensive squarmeter in real estate ever” to put some earth on it , plant a bush so your dog can have a leak as only use of this squaremeter?

    And after some 5 years of use salt and corrosion will make that your ( most expensive dog toilet ever) goes below the waves.

    Do you really think this will happen?…

    Even for billion dollar industries like the oil/gas industry using elevated platforms is too expensive – they are going for more economic alternatives like barges and for a good reasons…

    The better alternative is make a semisub (red) and live in it. Or make a column (blue) (flip, sea-orbiter) and live in it. Or make a platform at sea level (green) – (barge, nkossa, adriatic, ) and live in/on it.

    The key to cost reduction is make ONE structure that solves it all, instead of making THREE structures to hold you suspended in the air on a open platform in the middle of the sea.

    one word = seasickness

    #12360
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    umm … 40m wide? comparable to the length of this boat, right?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPBaqh3dcVM

    also – many of your comments refer to the base (floatation structure). i just downloaded that from the 3d warehouse. my main idea is the simplicity of an open recreation area built on top of the residential space.

    #12359

    big cruiseships have a beam of 40m, hulls of that size have sufficient form stability to be really comfortable in almost all sea states. Making a flat raft platform with 40m beam seams to be a modeate size goal for what is supposed to be a floating city – you can expect it being as comfortable in waves as a cruiseship…

    If you are really uncomfortable with waves and want to go smaller take just the red part of your drawing (submersible) …skip the blue and green parts… you can leave the coffee cup on the table in ANY sea state.

    You end up with something like the images below when you thinn out the blue columns to tube size you get a snorkel

    A semi/submerged living space like that is very comfortable in waves and still recieves lots of daylight. Best thing is – you get it at a cost of a small fraction of a elevated platform – one structure – solves all the comfort and housing issues instead of 4 structures . (1=submerged foundation, 2=columns, 3=platform, 4=secondary housing on the platform)

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #12361
    Profile photo of Distorted-Humor
    Distorted-Humor
    Participant

    That ship is a lot smaller then a cruse ship.

    Green open areas are nice, but i think what Ellmer point (Which is very valid) is that you have to get the cost per square foot down to get folks to sea-stead. Platforms are nice, but are the most expensive square footage method of building. Even Oil and gas, which basicly has a blank check on costs, have gone to non-raised platforms in some areas due to cost. For example, If I could afford to build Troll A as a living area, it would already be happening.

    The other issue in cost is scale. For example, I could have built a 70 meter wide column, which if made, say, 200 meters long, is easily doable on the building side, and would be cheaper per family then a homestead due to scale, however, getting 150 people to move out in the sea, and pay a house price for it is goign to be very hard to do. Ellmer is looking at trying to take that and scale it down to a single family homestead, which is a logical plan if there is a market for it, while being more expensive then a large habitat, it is easier to get a single family to take a chance on it then a whole village.

    I know of a design that has proven itself that it will last a lifetime, using 1960s technology, that could provide tons of living space, however a lot of that living space would be under the water line. (The ekofisk storage tank and breakwater. Installed in 1973, has survived even with massive issues dealing with settling due to oil operations, in the middle of the north sea. )

    #12362

    The society segments for which “cost is no issue” are already out on the ocean living there (if they want so, or have an incentive to do so) – among those are millionairs with floating millionair solutions (called mega yachts) and the oil industry with their platforms, going for the billion dollar oil/gas bounty in the seafloor.

    The only new aspect that comes in by Seasteading is the “housing for average people” aspect. In a structure that is made for “oil drilling purpose” you can expect a return on investment of a billion dollar per squaremeter structure.

    In a structure that is made for housing purpose you have some 1200 dollar per squaremeter available to build it. – which is real estate price – and the buyer wants to hand over the real estate to his children. A oil platform can be scuttled after a decade when it has done its job.

    This makes a HUGE difference in your business plan and in its feasibility.

    In other words when we talk about seasteading we are automaticly looking for the most economic and most long lasting method to enclose and preserve living space on the ocean. So what we are looking for is structures that are simple and cheap to build and last for ever on the ocean. We are also looking for ways to enclose big chunks of living space, with using little material creating wave impact save shells which leads automaticly to spheres and some kind of tubular structures.

    So promising canditates are big modular flat floats that have sufficient size to survive ANY ocean condition on the surface – which starts in the 30-40m diameter range or shells in sphere, blimp, tubular shapes that can stand wave impacts and should probably be submerged a few meters to allow comfort in waves.

    Which leads to the living space bubble concept ( seasteading.org/interact/forums/engineering/tsi-engineering/open-ocean-capeable-living-space-bubble)

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #12363
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    you guys are off on a tangent that has nothing to do with the title of this forum. the “simple design principle” has everything to do with the layout of the top of the structure. i clearly stated the three principles at the very top and my first one is “floatation and systems go on the bottom”. you must be confused by the picture. I DO NOT CARE IF YOU USE A SEMI-SUB OR A PLATFORM or whatever else you dream up. it only says “floatation structure” and THATS WHAT I MEANT!

    go find somewhere else to promote your underwater idea. its a piece of crap thats good for nothing but a small number of people. you cannot support a large state that exists underwater for cheaper than a floating one. if you think you can, see a shrink.

    UPDATE: this might help:

    #12364
    Profile photo of Distorted-Humor
    Distorted-Humor
    Participant

    Why do you think green space is that key for living at sea? Wouldn’t that be better served by building a small garden room that would be protected from the weather and salt spray to provide a the green space/ recreation area? the top side is some of the most valuable real estate on a sea-stead, and wouldn’t it be better used for energy generation, cargo loading, or the economic driver for your sea-stead? Garden spaces are also great uses for semi-treated grey-water and perhaps provide some fresh food to break the boring rations….

    #12365
    Profile photo of tusavision
    tusavision
    Participant

    shredder7753 wrote:

    you guys are off on a tangent that has nothing to do with the title of this forum. the “simple design principle” has everything to do with the layout of the top of the structure. i clearly stated the three principles at the very top and my first one is “floatation and systems go on the bottom”. you must be confused by the picture. I DO NOT CARE IF YOU USE A SEMI-SUB OR A PLATFORM or whatever else you dream up. it only says “floatation structure” and THATS WHAT I MEANT!

    go find somewhere else to promote your underwater idea. its a piece of crap thats good for nothing but a small number of people. you cannot support a large state that exists underwater for cheaper than a floating one. if you think you can, see a shrink.

    UPDATE: this might help:

    Holy crap guys, I’ve been out-trolled.

    #12367
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    tusavision wrote:

    shredder7753 wrote:

    you guys are off on a tangent that has nothing to do with the title of this forum. the “simple design principle” has everything to do with the layout of the top of the structure. i clearly stated the three principles at the very top and my first one is “floatation and systems go on the bottom”. you must be confused by the picture. I DO NOT CARE IF YOU USE A SEMI-SUB OR A PLATFORM or whatever else you dream up. it only says “floatation structure” and THATS WHAT I MEANT!

    go find somewhere else to promote your underwater idea. its a piece of crap thats good for nothing but a small number of people. you cannot support a large state that exists underwater for cheaper than a floating one. if you think you can, see a shrink.

    UPDATE: this might help:

    Holy crap guys, I’ve been out-trolled.

    [/quote]

    lol – yea theres a new sheriff in town

    #12368
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    Distorted wrote:

    Why do you think green space is that key for living at sea? Wouldn’t that be better served by building a small garden room that would be protected from the weather and salt spray to provide a the green space/ recreation area? the top side is some of the most valuable real estate on a sea-stead, and wouldn’t it be better used for energy generation, cargo loading, or the economic driver for your sea-stead? Garden spaces are also great uses for semi-treated grey-water and perhaps provide some fresh food to break the boring rations….

    i can appreciate that angle. it does make some sense. i think in order to make progress on that u might actually need some hard data – such as real market research from consumers who fit the profile as interested buyers.

    i have to admit, my work really focuses on the physical dimension. i design stuff like its a product i want to sell to someone. for people who actually want to seastead totally on the cheap, and make everything as cheapy cheap cheap as possible your argument has merit. for all i know, most of the people on here might want that. but i still focus on developing marketable “products”, not some gerry-rigged crap shoot.

    i think there could be a market for wealthy people/organizations who want a permanently moored platform. it would be a nice vacation spot for someone who already knows the touristy beaches and wants a private sanctuary.

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