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Self-Governance

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This topic has 1 voice, contains 8 replies, and was last updated by Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS OCEANOPOLIS 742 days ago.

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May 22, 2009 at 11:16 am #927
Avatar of ross3825
ross3825

On the topic of self-governance, an interesting model is Christiana, Denmark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania). Christiana has been in existence for quite some time and has an interesting history. Not that seasteads should be promoted as floating hash markets, but Christiana is one of the longest-lived independent communes of which I am aware making it quite a success in my mind.

It is also useful to note how the citizens of Christiana have been threatened by and interacted with the traditional governments by which they are surrounded.

MR

May 28, 2009 at 5:44 pm #6207
Avatar of wohl1917
wohl1917

From reading and thinking on the article, these folks have been able to make it work by simply ‘Doing It’ and then dealing with the consequences. My experiences have led me the same conclusion: ‘Its better to ask for forgiveness than to beg for permission!’ That philosophy and the morally casual attitude that exists in Denmark has aloud them to survive. It would never work on this side of the pond unless you were far out to sea…

March 11, 2010 at 6:06 pm #9831
Avatar of xiagos
xiagos

Both of these posts make a good point. Just do it!

Build a seastead, create your own government, declare your sovereignty. I really don’t think anyone will really care when the whole operation is small as long as no one does anything to ruffle feathers. As the seastead grows, it should make a concerted effort to become a productive and valuable international member. Then when the seastead is big enough to really be noticed, it will be far too valuable to the world to mess with by most people. The only exception to this is piracy. But, for these parasites we will not need coatal artillery or long range missiles, just a citizens militia armed with small arms.

I offer some ideas on how not to become a pain in someone’s ass when just starting out:

  1. Dual citizenship – sure we will all be citizens of Freedomland, or what ever we decide to call our new home, but by maintaining our outside citizenship status, we avoid the expense and hassles of printing our own passports, dealing with immigration bureaucrats in every country, and so on.
  2. Become economically self-sufficient as soon as possible. One way is via aquaculture. With many areas being over-fished, a seastead providing good quality seafood at reasonable prices will be seen as a real friend, not a competitor.
  3. Screw the UN. The UN is a collection of thrugs and dictators trying to elevate their positions and power by taking control of what they see as a growing world government. The UN is screwing Africans, and it will screw seasteaders if we have any intercourse with it.
  4. Be a good neighbour. We may have to build our seastead in heavily traveled waters. It makes sense for seasteaders to bend over backwards to contribute to safe navigation. It will also be to our credit if we can provide repair and chandlery services to passing vessels. Although this is really a private enterprise issue, it is something that our seastead’s government should encourage. There may be other “good neighbour” serves that the seastead could provide for both profit and propaganda.
  5. A good defense? In this case, an offense is definitely not the best defense. Avoid becoming involved in conflicts with neighbouring states. The seastead should protect itself and patrol its own waters. Perhaps some of our citizens might hire out as mercenary security to protect shipping and combat pirates, but not as official representatives or regular military. In fact, I do not preceive the need for any real standing navy in the beginning, or for a long time. Most defense functions can be handled by law enforcement and the naval militia.

I am sure others may come up with even more suggestions for keeping the seastead low-key in its formative years. But, our concern is, as Larry the Cable Guy says, “Get ‘er done!”

March 12, 2010 at 5:12 pm #9837
Avatar of cscoggin
cscoggin

Although an interesting situation, I think it take some selective reading to consider this a successful example.

To begin with they are squatters so they did not crate or build anything (at the start) but took resources funded and built by others. Not really applicable to seasteding as we will have to create everything from scratch. At a minimum that means we have that much more to loose if it does not work out. It also means that they could start at very different scale (i.e. much larger) then we would be most likely to.

Most importantly, they have never really been autonomous (assuming that is the goal). They broke some rules varying degrees of impunity but in the end have capitulated to the Danish on almost every point. And in the end, per the Wikipedia entry, it appears that they have given up/in:

In September of 2007, the representatives of Christiania and Copenhagen’s city council reached an agreement to cede control of Christiania to the city over the course of 10 years for the purposes of business development. Also, as of May of 2009, the Eastern High Court upheld a 2004 Act of Parliament which reaffirmed the state’s legal claim to control of the base.

That said, I have a great deal of respect for anyone who is willing to put not just they money but their life and livelihood on the line for what they believe in and do it. I would love to be shown that I am wrong on this and that it can and will work. However I am more risk averse then most and unfortunately feel that the predominance of the evidence shows that (except perhaps a run-away-and-hide style single family seastead (and I honestly don’t think that counts)) just declaring sovereignty and hoping to be accepted (or at least left alone) will not work.

March 12, 2010 at 5:44 pm #9838
Avatar of i_is_j_smith
i_is_j_smith

“Just Do It” and “Git ‘er done” are fine as long as you are the only one taking the risk. If you want to put all your money, time, and energy on the line then nobody can stop you.

The problem is that most large-scale seastead projects will require the money from several investors. Those investors will require some level of assurance that their investment will be safe. They don’t want a guarantee that the seastead will work out…there is a risk after all and that’s why it’s called an investment. But investors are not in the business of throwing their money away and will usually require a risk assessment that goes a little further than “We’re gettin’ ‘er done!” or “We’re just gonna do it!”.

I agree with all 5 of your points on how not to be a PITA, though. The dual-citizenship thing might be tricky, since some countries do not allow their citizens to have dual-citizenship. But not causing trouble will be a very high priority when seasteads are first getting their feet wet…so to speak.

March 14, 2010 at 12:58 pm #9847
Avatar of Altaica
Altaica

xiagos wrote:

I really don’t think anyone will really care when the whole operation is small as long as no one does anything to ruffle feathers.

Your not taking into count the fact that he extablish states are built and a house of cards and they know it. The only why they CAN stay in power in to keep their serfs from realizing that they have any alteratives. So unless you seastead is clandestine your going to be ruffleing feathers.

Minerva Reef

A seamount is a not-quite island, an underwater mountain without enough oomph to make it to sea level. Like land, seamounts are geographically stable but politically problematic. They can act as breakwaters if they’re close enough to the surface, which is quite useful since waves are one of the major dangers of the ocean. Also they can function as anchoring points or pillar foundations. However if they are raised above sea level, they are vulnerable to claim by land-based jurisdictions, as happened with the Minerva Reef. Since this incident exemplifies the reasons why free-floating sea structures are better politically, we will recount it here.

Michael Oliver, a Las Vegas real estate millionaire, made several nation founding attempts. At one point he focused on the Minerva Reefs, 260 miles southwest of Tonga, which were conveniently outside the territorial waters of any nation and below water at high tide. Quite large, they seemed perfect as a foundation for a new, sovereign territory. His plan was to build them up with sand and create a new island and a new country, and he hired dredges from Australia in 1971. After six months, he proclaimed the independence of the Republic of Minerva, which issued coins.

The only reaction he got was from the Kingdom of Tonga, Minerva’s closest neighbor. A box of supplies was dropped on the new land which said “supplied and maintained by the government of Tonga”, an action said to be supported by other nations in the area. His Majesty then ventured to Minerva with a gang of convicts and a four-member band. They planted the Tongan flag, played the Tongan national anthem, and claimed the sandy patch for Tonga. After they left, the forces of nature did their work, and the sand of Minerva returned slowly to the ocean from whence it had sprung. [Strauss1984 pp. 115-117].

This is a classic example of the lengths to which nations will go to preserve their cartel status – even a worthless patch of sand is seen as competition. If a new nation is created on land (no matter how small or undesirable), it is likely that the nearest traditional nations will claim jurisdiction. It may be possible to negotiate a treaty, but that is likely to be expensive and prospective nation founders are unlikely to have much to bargain with.

ouk emou alla tou logou akousantas homologein sophon estin hen

May 10, 2010 at 6:18 pm #10133
Avatar of xiagos
xiagos

i_is_j_smith wrote:

“Just Do It” and “Git ‘er done” are fine as long as you are the only one taking the risk. If you want to put all your money, time, and energy on the line then nobody can stop you.

The problem is that most large-scale seastead projects will require the money from several investors. Those investors will require some level of assurance that their investment will be safe. They don’t want a guarantee that the seastead will work out…there is a risk after all and that’s why it’s called an investment. But investors are not in the business of throwing their money away and will usually require a risk assessment that goes a little further than “We’re gettin’ ‘er done!” or “We’re just gonna do it!”.

Well said. The question is: Who will be the investors? Will it be some rich “sugar daddies” or the seasteaders themselves. Or, might they be, in some cases, one-and-the-same. It miight be advisable to look to William Penn as an example as how to set up a seastead.

He sought out investors for the first Quaker colony in Pennsylvania, but broke with the idealogy of equality in his faith by creating larger lots to be sold to rich people. this caused him some grief from some of his fellow Quakers, but it brought in money. But, the normal-sized lots sold were to the “middle class” folk who accounted for most of the money used to acquire the land from the Indians. If there is ever going to be a seastead, it will either be through a similar type of creative financing or a project financed by the rich who will want control over it. In the later case, I fear it is likely that you and I will only enjoy life on the seastead as servants or employees.

May 11, 2010 at 11:42 pm #10138
Avatar of wohl1917
wohl1917

Xiagos! There are no investor or “sugar daddies” out there to invest in such things in todays market. The William Penn analogy is a good one…

< http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

May 12, 2010 at 7:17 am #10140
Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
OCEANOPOLIS

The contrarian “rub” might be that, since there are not too many opportunities to invest in todays market (a land based market) then the seasteading market looks very promising. Back on the subject, well, money have a lot to do w/self-governance, but not limited to it. This is my logic:

  1. If we are to debate “self-governance” than we are talking about it on a seastead operating on the high seas ONLY. (self explanatory)
  2. If such a seastead would be build by the rich than its a FACT that we will all be wage slaves (a.k.a. servants or employees), which is unacceptable.
  3. Therefore, disregard # 2.
  4. If # 1. and # 3. are true, than the only acceptable solution is to build the seastead as a coop, a partnership between investors who are also residents and owners-operators of various businesses on such a seastead.
  5. If # 1 is true, and since the high seas are 200nm offshore, than the most likeiy design for such a seastead would be a modular floating artificial island to the like of http://seasteading.org/interact/forums/engineering/structure-designs/waveland-modular-mobile-offshore-base . (not because its mine, :-) but because it make sense).
  6. If # 1, 4, 5 are true than “self-governance” would translate into a process of decision making between people with common goals and aspirations, bounded by an initial partnership agreement. If this is the case, it is my belief that regardless of what form or shape of “self-governance” we will agree upon and regardless of the way we will agree, it will be a better and fairer system than most in existence now.
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