Seasteading & UK Laws
July 6, 2010 at 2:09 pm #1292
Hey I have been looking at places you might set up a seastead or Micronation whatever go’s, without geting my ballls blown off by some warships.
So what i undertsand is: every ones got cool ideas & some not so cool ideas.. hitlers dead right?? But there is just one weee problems… REALITY BITES BUM.
Beacues as Bum hole-retentive as we all might be, people who study to work in Council, state or Government organizations, are waaaay more nit picky.
Ok 1st thing is to look for a place thats warm, because whats almost as bad as having your balls shot off is them freezing off..(yes i could stop saying balls but im not)
Here [picture1] is a map depicting the current EEZ of the southern UK & its EEZ, lavender is military use (Thats for royal navy, dont know what they an do to you though, since the UNCLOS says the EEZ is not a military zone or am i wrong?),
The grey dots are oil rigs & wells or somthing. the red line is the 12Nautical mile limmit & the black line i think is the 24NM limmit. with the 3rd thick black line on the outside being the EEZ of the UK.
The grey lines are PIPES CABLES & THE LIKES. i think there could be problems with these also, but maybe not since the government only seem to care about these items in the 12nm zone as read in a letter from the http://www.thecrownestate.co.uk/marine website to a uk communications company.
It read that the Crown estate did not have authority over the cables outise the 12NM limmit. however told them they had to pay the uk a per year licence fee to keep the cables in the 12NM Costal zone
Here [Picture2] im only looking at the -200 NM section & the “anywhere at sea” section.
The CPA-1949 (brown) I have not looked at yet (SHEESH ALOT)
The FEPA 1985 & the Maritime Management Organisation (or FEPA guys) are the key holders, because to do basicly ANYTHING offshore in the EEZ you have to get “Licences”.(UNCLOS gives them this right)
It clearly states thats you cant build up islands or move anything on the seabed without licences yearly, & possibly you have to get an environmental study done & so on..
Basicly at this point im thinking, well that means you CANT build somthing in the sea without being confronted by a Coast guard vessle or Warship, about what you are doing.
so that means you have to ask permission & submit Authority to the UK government. so you cant build a free Nation at sean inside the UK EEZ ….Or can you 😉 (read on)
Even if you think about it, they cant claim ownership of the ocean or ocean floor, but they CAN claim ownership of the minirals & Marine life & ANYTHING that interacts with it (for your own good…Uhuuu)
Crown Estates, now these guys (evil & in black) are not so nice thses are the guys who want your money for using our beautiful world, they charge you for building windfarms inside the 12nms & fees for the use of the seabed, You will NEED a license from these guys to.
they own inside the 12nm zone seabed & water & all within it.
Outside the 12nm up to 200nm they own the minirals & marine life but not the “water column”. (I read in another conflicting document that they (crown estates) claim more than the 200nm into the atlantic. im sorry i read alot of documents & bad at notes).
However there “ownership” ends at 12nm acording to them yet in other documents i read they claim seabed ownership up to the edges of the full EEZ ownership extends to the use of objects on the seabed, so you cant just go out & ankor somthign at sea or build somthing without their permission.
They also seem to have EEZ protection officers now what the hell is that & what can they do to you??
In Summary, the more i read the more not so nice it looks BUT i have hope, i think there is a way to do it, by joining the system then screwing it through Democracy (who is going to shoot UK citizens on lIve webcam feeds who have declare independance & not get MAULED in the press?)
If you ask from, FEPA & the Crown estates for licenses to build a Recreational Island more than 15nm offshore, it is likely they will grant it, provided you jump through their hoops. (this sounds bad i know but bear with) If you however build your island, & then get enough people on it & keep things pleasant & proffitable, nothing can stop you declaring Independence from the coastal state.
This has happend to the UK MANY times over the last 50 years & can happen again without bloodshed. (its probably not a good idea to tell the coastal state you plan to break away from the mainland before you have built the island if you get where im coming from).July 13, 2010 at 8:26 pm #10754
Well, Sealand seems to be tolerated okay. I say go for areas that are disputed – little rocks in the middle of the ocean that are claimed by several countries. Or go for a small island that’s likely to tolerate you being there.
Seasteading is to Boat Living what Traction Cities are to Vandwelling – simply a matter of scale.July 14, 2010 at 11:52 am #10769
Sealand is being tolerated by the UK government because it is irrelevant, it is not being developed, it is not causing problems for the government, it will be abandoned by the family eventually and it will ultimately fall into the sea, so the issue will go away if they ignore it long enough.July 14, 2010 at 4:42 pm #10776
i guess it was to much to expect any one to think about the legal side of thing & talk with me about it.July 14, 2010 at 11:37 pm #10785
Jack, boil your posts down to the essential message and more people will perhaps respond. In other words use fewer words.
If you are asking whether you will be able to build artificial islands inside the UK’s EEZ, I would say most likely not.
Certainly not if you plan to declare a new nation. If you plan to have your islands be part of the UK, perhaps. But what would be the point of that?
If you want to do things inside the EEZ, use a floating vessel under the flag of some country.
Outside the EEZ you might be able to build from the seabed, but shallow enough places are few and far between. And then there is the question of getting your new island recognized by other countries. And the cost.
Water is great for floating stuff in. There is no point in moving massive amounts of earth to build islands from the seabed. Unless it is really really shallow. But it’s not.July 15, 2010 at 1:54 am #10786
A nations’ EEZ extends 200nm or to the edge of the continental shelf, they will not tolerate any structure that they do not have jurisdiction over, within that area, sealand caught them by surprise, they won’t make that mistake again especially since they can excuse any action with the justification of fighting terrorism.
If you want relative independance get a boat if you want true independance build past the edge of the continental shelf and be prepared to fight to keep your independance.July 15, 2010 at 2:00 am #10787
Yes I had thought it was a bit long but its liek me 2nd post i ever made, & it is kind of technical, & i dont 100% understand it all, thats why i put as much info in as possible to let people give advice & thoughts.
The nation of Sealand Island (not that i think its a nation) but we shouldent be picky if we want other flags to recognise out ventures as fellow “nations”
Plus the fact that family fired a live artillary weapon at a Navy vessel & lived… thats gotta count for somthing, at the verry least it would be wise to give the owners a visit & ask em about things they have had to deal with.
The point is I wouldent want to live on a floating vessel, they are trouble in my opinion.
However if as you stated, “If you plan to have your islands be part of the UK, perhaps”
Summary: from what i can see, (correct me if im wrong) Is that the UK EEZ is solid, since you only need a FEPA licence for your build site, now that means you could construct in shallow waters, at a lower cost & not have to worrie about the land based authorities.
As a group
- Submit & procure a licence for an offshore private recreational construction, with an environmental study.
- Register a community foundation some where you get the most liberty’s (Venezuela? I read they openly support Ideological causes with wepons & money as dose Iran).
- Buy a Quarry/new quarry site in the UK under the community foundation. (worked by the community)
- Ship the materials via a Communaly owned vessel, or chartered vessel to the site & drop it off till you have an isalnd. (wont need to pay export tax on the Rocks I’d say since its a foundation).
- Keep the land under the community ownership but sell buildings (to project participants only at 1st), as to give people vested interests in keeping their home safe, & generate service charges for upkeep & expansioin.
- Dont fly the UK flag, just keep quiet, & dont bother any government people who visit, Let the foundation answer any official questions, ship in quetly some “tools” (things that go boom) and build an economy, selling cheap Marine diesel, or cheap asian dental surgery holidays, ferrying people from the mainland, Get Marina’s in uk & france to advise people to stop off for the day at our island & so on, basicly get a stable image.
- After 6-12 months of having a normal Life & so on, have a vote from residents & Declare Independence & set out how you intend to deal with the UK ships at sea & how you want to live, also a list of what other micro nations you recognise. I dont see them making to much fuss about it.
- Make pacts with other micronations.
there is also another place in england during the (80’s??) declared indipendence, but got neglected so badly the locals begged the local council to take them back, but they were left alone TOTALY for a number of years.
(maybe im wrong, but if what about these other people doing it?)July 15, 2010 at 4:13 pm #10795
Yes i spoil you all.
here is a link that has basicly all the recorded Sand banks & seamounts in the euro zone your ever going to want!
Check this sucker out! Dogger bank! ints on avrage 40m!!!!! with depths as little at 18meters !!!!! 18 METERS!
OMG I WANT A QUARRY & A BOAT NOW I’ll HAND PICK THE FECKING ROCKS & THROW EM OVER THE SIDE MYSELF!July 15, 2010 at 4:20 pm #10796
Is anyone going to let you built there, though? It’s within the EEZ of several European nations…
I’d have to go for the area near Rockall. Plenty of submerged seamounts to build on. Well, a few. But once you have your initial stable foundation, you can do what the Incans did, and build floating land to use for farming. I don’t think crops get seasick.
Seasteading is to Boat Living what Traction Cities are to Vandwelling – simply a matter of scale.July 15, 2010 at 5:39 pm #10798
Thats a good question Terraformer.
Reasons I think they will:
- Its UK EEZ, not national waters.
- Its not a full marine protection area since people still fish it. (the bad way, i checked)
- As far as i understand we only need a “licence” from FEPA, since we are NOT extracting anything or taking anything away.
- Greenpeace will probably side with a settlement their if we declare a 3nm NO FISHING zone around the settlement, hell they might even help us enforce it!
- If we promote recreational diving & start some reef’s that should help with the FEPA licence
However m8, i Dont think Dogger bank is the warmest of places.
Id still think somthign furtehr south owuld be better.
I dunno up to you people, just a thought since i cant do anything alone, we need to act together.July 15, 2010 at 8:21 pm #10800
“Its UK EEZ, not national waters.”
Actually, it’s closest to the Irish mainland. It’s quite a contentious issue as to whether St Kilda extends the UK EEZ. There’s quite a good chance it will be declared extraterritorial, at least in terms of an EEZ, in 2014. That leaves the issue of the actual ownership of the rocks to be decided between the UK and Ireland, which will likely drag on for several years – if someone goes in and claims it, I don’t think anyone’s going to try to remove them until it’s too late and their established as a nation.
Seasteading is to Boat Living what Traction Cities are to Vandwelling – simply a matter of scale.July 15, 2010 at 9:10 pm #10801
Yep your right I totaly agree with you m8, (can i say m8?) but its buggery cold there.
another thing is St Kilda has a small uk army base on it, I know as i have stopped of there, its like an old roman settlement with all the ruins its wierd, but very nice place. (did not go near the army guys though, never saw them at all, I think they just eat & watch youtube videos of Iraq every day lol). ooh i just read it closed last year & its run by a u.s military research company.. jeez thats wierd.
Anyhoo your right, bit its sooo cold, & the highest recorded wave their was 29meters high! eeek.
To be fair though i dont know how high the waves have been at the spots i’d suggest.
However again, i come back to heat, id rather somthing further south, can you tell me what you think a realistic aproach would be to your construction & how you see it making money?
Since my brain (maybe wrong) keeps telling me, Heat=sun, Quarry, shallow waters, Rock island, sand, trees, yachts, rich people, offshore banking, near sealand, & Missile system.July 15, 2010 at 9:39 pm #10804
North = more available land, temperate climate if you’re in the Gulf Stream (even if you’re not, Canada still manages to grow grain), warm weather during the summer…
The best way I can see to go about “seasteading” using isolate rocks that are claimed by more than one nation is to offer to run it as a self-governing territory for one of the nations. Gives you the opportunity to decide the laws, and makes their claim solid.
Seasteading is to Boat Living what Traction Cities are to Vandwelling – simply a matter of scale.July 16, 2010 at 1:03 pm #10807
Terraformer, I’d like to ask you to consider this. Now i want you to know that i have looked at your concept in detail, & I also want you to know I looked at Rockall as my 1st choice, long before i found the TSI & its documents.
So i’d like you to consider these points:
- Rockall was landed on by a Royal Navy crew in 1810 So its well & trully British
- Its Realy cold, windy, wet, some times underwater! Lots of protected Birds live their, (greenpeace were wrong to disturb them) parts from Nuke subs are around the area, & its coverd in some serious shit (birds) 😛
- Waveland Faild & the UK Gov did not challenge them, they simply said “the uk is a free country” so they did not recognise them.
- Waveland invited people to join & get involved, people didnt realy, & no economy was formed at all.
- Its Inside the UK EEZ, & you will need permission from FEPA , probably the Crown Estates & SEAS(EU).
- Its also under Irish jurisdiction, so you will probably need Permission from multiple Irish government bodys & NGO’s. For the record the Irish have SHIT LOADS of environmental agencies & NGO’s that have ALOT of power, I know the owner of a small Airport in central Ireland, who was trying to get a New Air ambulence stationed at his Airport, & a new Air control tower built, he got planning permission but he had to get permission from an environmental board that looks at EVERY planning request, & he fought for 4 years trying to get it & did not. (he also owns the local pub hehe)
This is why its more feasible(your thoughts?):
July 16, 2010 at 4:58 pm #10813
- Contrary to the publications & mode of thought TSI (an American foundation investing primarily in American projects) I belive that the best course of action is through the host nations legal system to begin with, Since your already battling the Sea, you dont want to battle nation states.
- There are Hundreds of sand banks & Sea mounts in the UK EEZ
- There have been at least 2-6 REAL Land based Micronations in the UK (that have ownership of property) over the past 30 years. & they are ether still active, or are were abandoned (without coercion from the UK gov) because of lack of structure or peoples lack of will to continue. (2 active on islands i know of)
- There Is or has been, atleast 4-6 Offshore Floating or Manmade Islands in the uk’s EEZ over the past 40 years. & they are ether still active, or are were abandoned (without coercion from the UK gov) because of lack of structure or peoples lack of will to continue. (1 active)
- The Seabed in the UK EEZ in on sites of economic viability are in places that are in as little as 15 meters of water, with a max under 200 meters around the warmer areas of Dogger bank & the Celtic Shelf. These are very much in reach of large ports, private sailing groups, & your own private fast ferry.
- There would be protection after buying licenses from the UK agencies such as FEPA (and maybe the Crown)
- Its cheaper to buy a quarry & ship the fill material to drop at a sand bank for an island, than it is to buy concrete & build somthing from th sea bed up, (I could do the numbers for any one than wants). Its even Cheaper if you have a registered charity for UK operations.
- I see little problem with gaining a Licence for a 10-20 acre recreational Island, that promotes marine life tourism Offshore.Take Doggers bank for example, in 2014 Energy companies will be given full licenses (for energy production) by FEPA & the Crown Estates to develop a 3Gw wind farm of over 2000 wind turbines turbines, even though its a sensitive marine area.
- Do you not think that, after you have built your island, & the land is owned by residents, that (not talking about political systems) if all these people, (Sealand/Waveland/Forvik etc.) can decalare independence & even fire weapons in defence of their assets, & still be left in peace by the UK Governemnt, then whats to stop that happening again? This I feel side steps Rene Kardol’s issues with a man made island.
- “UN General Assembly Resolution 2625, section 2; all peoples have the right to freely determine, without external interference, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development”
I think your going down the wrong path with your ideas of seasteading, all the other mirco nations that have been formed in and around the UK have not been very big at all. They did not become much bother to the UK government and therefor the government did little to stop them.
I belive any new nation should be very far away from any existing nation, far enough away infact that the EEZ of the new nation does not overlap with any existing counties EEZ. This will help prevent any legal issues (an existing country could not lay clain to a small nation if it were in the middle of the Atlantic/Pacific), it would also allow the newly founded nation to take full advantage of its EEZ.
I appreciate that you may find it a logical step to stray away from floating nations and stick to a more traditional land based means of homesteading, but i dont think the fact that the nation is floating will make much of a difference to the views held by other countries, they will still dismiss it and reject its sovereigncy.
I see no logical reason to found a new nation so close to existing countries and their EEZ, especially since the nation would be static and unable to move away if diplomatic relations took a turn for the worst.
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