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Seasteading start up budget.

Home Forums Community General Chat Seasteading start up budget.

This topic contains 99 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS OCEANOPOLIS 2 years, 12 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 100 total)
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  • #11063
    Profile photo of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    The point is – Kon-Tiki made it over the pacific – trough storms without topple over, not even being near somwhere to that – on contrary to what naval engineers had predicted. – conclusion is naval engineers tend to have acertive opinions while they talk about ship hulls – they frequently do widley underestimate the seaworthyness of flat rafts .

    Comparing flat raft to flat raft what is safer the concrete shell in the first picture or Kon-Tiki – what has better freeboard, the shelter on Kon-Tiki was safe during storms (they did not loose a single crew member) – but of course i too would prefer a wave impact resistant concrete shell structure on top of the flat raft for housing purpose.

    I’d like you to note the frictional difference between the concrete raft on the left, and the wood raft on the right.

    A planing hull, which is smooth, can easily skip over the water,

    while a displacement hull sits in the water.

    So if your hull is displacement okay, it’ll be fine in large waves,

    but if it is too smooth it can plane, and so slide down a wave.

    concrete shell structures can look that way…they are already in use for hurricane shelters, and hurricane safe houses in exposed areas as we speak.

    nothing against richard sowa – i like hippies – just it will be easier to get authority consent if the look and feel of the seastead is something like this…as base platform and as finished solution with “house on it”

    Every time you say that,

    I have a vision in my mind of one of those 18m waves,

    crashing down onto the raft, the concrete shell is fine,

    but the houses that were on top are shattered and mostly gone.

    The units may they be round, kite, hexagon, squareshaped, boat shaped, triangular or whatever, finally rafted up as a marina development where “live aboard is welcome” (not prohibited as in most current marinas). Growing from protected space out to the open sea.

    of all the ones you’ve displayed,

    this is the only one Id’ feel safe in,

    assuming what we’re looking at is a cutaway

    and it’s actually a solid concrete shell all the way around,

    with some submarine port view windows.

    this one might be okay,

    but I wouldn’t risk it, that glass looks fragile,

    and it doesn’t have sails.

    One of the reasons why i stopped discussing concrete submarines on forums was that i found out that discussion never ends – (there are even some 20% of americans still are discussing if moonlanding ever took place) – so what is your chance to win a discussion with people “questioning your concepts”. Discussion only ends if you can bring people to the showroom and make them see and feel your concept. Building it is the way of excellence to move a discussion forward. Imagine Heyerdahl still discussing with naval engineers if a raft can make it over the pacific – he just made it and did it – discussion over. This is the way we should move our projects forward.

    Ya, agreed.

    We just gotta do it.

    I’m still having trouble obtaining supplies,

    Like I’ve seen portland cement for sale,

    but none that’s sulphate-resistant,

    also haven’t been able to locate bulk ash powder.

    seems like I’m even gonna have to order chickenwire online,

    since it’s not sold in stores around here.

    #11064
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Discussions shud be constructive. Their purpose is to draw the right conclusions in order to DO the right ACTIONS. But there are always questions left to be answered,…For example, on the topic @ hand, ASSUMING that our coclusions are that seasteading should start as a “low tech” ferro modular platform on a budget of around $100k, then the next logical question would be “How to finance it?”

    #11072
    Profile photo of tusavision
    tusavision
    Participant

    At some point it may become productive to start thinking in terms of lost productivity/lost profit per day of waiting to move.

    What better price to put on a day of lost profit than the median cost of rent? When jibba jabba comes at a daily price, it has a tendancy to expedite things to an ideal pace.

    I think you all should be thinking in terms of ideal foot print platforms. Let the end user aftermarket pimp the boat to their delight and just sell the barebone ferrocement hull.

    Towards this end: why not go trailer home and design the rigid hull around the idea of lashing multiple hulls together, and accomplish any necessary fluidynamics via inflatible raft style hull modifications?

    The “Wide Load” size restrictions of interstate freight trucking should determine the hull envelope of the single family base unit. This allows for ease of transport and market penetration.

    It seems to me that the flagship product should be nothing more than a hardened/ocean worthy houseboat. If you can cut the boat trailer out of the equation by giving it a wheel base and allowing it to be launched/removed from the water with nothing more than a trailer hitch and a car: you’ll greatly increase the convienence aspect to this. It resolves the question of “how will I move it” which is going to be one of the primary mental objections of potential buyers.

    #11073
    Profile photo of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    A ‘planing’ hull still displaces water. ‘Planing’ has to do with it’s characteristics when it is in motion… The yacht still has a specific hull displacement which is how it sits in the water, when not in motion.

    Later,

    J.L.F.

    Never be afraid to try something new…

    Remember, amateurs built the ark, professionals built the Titanic.

    #11075

    elspru, looks like you are going on with the ferrosheating aproach – i would have a look into concrete reinforcement with plastic fiber instead of steel wire in that case – any steel in a concrete matrix that is not at least 2,5cm deep embeded into the matrix is in risk of corrosion – so for very thin layers you might want to avoid steel completly – i have only seen examples for perfect protected reinforcement when the structure is thick walled and the reinforcement is deep embeded – there are many desaster cases when steel reinforcement is near the surface of the concrete matrix.

    What concerns the 18m wave breaking over your boat …well no man made structure including all yachts and most ships and industrial platforms can not take this – planning this as “expected load case” is way overbuild things…

    Wil

    #11076
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    “It seems to me that the flagship product should be nothing more than a hardened/ocean worthy houseboat.” I totally agree. Me and Will we were saying that for the last 6 month, or so. But in order for this module-houseboat to be oceangoing is got to be big, @ least 45′ LOA. Actually would be better around 60′ LOA. Regardless, using a trailer @ this size is prohibitive. @ 45′-60′ we are looking @ a displacement between 20-50 tons. Even a heavy duty truck will have a hard time pulling such module off the ramp.

    In order for this “houseboats”-modules to be comfortable liveaboards (lets say for 4 people) and oceangoing, they have to be @ la minimum of 40′ LOA, in my oppinion.

    #11077
    Profile photo of tusavision
    tusavision
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    “It seems to me that the flagship product should be nothing more than a hardened/ocean worthy houseboat.” I totally agree. Me and Will we were saying that for the last 6 month, or so. But in order for this module-houseboat to be oceangoing is got to be big, @ least 45′ LOA. Actually would be better around 60′ LOA. Regardless, using a trailer @ this size is prohibitive. @ 45′-60′ we are looking @ a displacement between 20-50 tons. Even a heavy duty truck will have a hard time pulling such module off the ramp.

    In order for this “houseboats”-modules to be comfortable liveaboards (lets say for 4 people) and oceangoing, they have to be @ la minimum of 40′ LOA, in my oppinion.

    If you can fit one in a 40′ shipping container: all the better. It’s much more comfortable to live in two railroad cars than one. That’s for sure.

    #11085

    I like the term hardened/ocean worthy housboat – because it gives a “management goal” – it can well be a thing that looks like a traditional yacht – a flat float solution, a submarine, a bunkerstead, whatever – it can have different grades of mobility – and the answers can depend on the specific needs of the owner.

    I would also postulate that you can not write down a “unique size” as the “suitable size” always depends on the owners wallet. This implies that we can not go with a “closed tiling concept” we have to find a way to “raft up” “houseboats” of different size and make. This means we should think in a “raft up structure” that creates “parking spaces” for a wide variety of “individual houseboats” instead of a “designed seastead” – we might call it a floating marina development .

    So there are 2 different functions the “housing” solved by the “hardened houseboat” and the connection or “raft up structure” basicly the floating walkways between houseboats that can have a kind of breakwater funtion. A third part would be the “public floats” that create social space to interact outside your home.

    So back to thread theme – minimum – is create a couple of hardened houseboats and connect them. The budget for the houseboats comes from the owners – it would be great to have financing for a couple of floating walkways to provide the connections.

    #11088
    Profile photo of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    Y’all shot the floating marina idea down, not long ago. I suggeted floating piers btween the seasteads and using them as gang-ways, instead of rafting stuff up and down to build up a community…

    I even suggested using dock fenders and merely tieing to cleats, or usin a 3-directional connection for motion… to handle pitch, roll and yaw, between different segments.

    Guess it wasn’t as ‘bad’ an idea as y’all made it sound…

    Later,

    J.L.F.

    Never be afraid to try something new…

    Remember, amateurs built the ark, professionals built the Titanic.

    #11089
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Let me start by saying: “Show me the money!!!!!” for that marina. And I will leave it there, for now.

    Now, please correct me if I’m wrong…. The ” hardened//ocean worthy houseboats” are STILL TO BE BUILT. !?

    There are NO SUCH HOUSEBOATS IN PRODUCTION RIGHT NOW ABLE TO DO AN OCEAN CROSSING.

    Tusa’s “vision”, “hardened/ocean worthy housboats” is an exellent methaphor summing up what future seasteads will be all about. If we ALL dont agree w/ that, than whoever DOESNT agree shud have their head checked and pardon themselves out of the seasteading movement for ever! That’s seasteading 1 on 1: building self sufficient ocean habitats.

    J.L, the idea with a floating marina is not bad, man. Belive it or not, that’s how I got into seasteading, back in ’93. I will save the story for a future time when we’ll be on our seastead, having some beers under the stars,…Is just that the whole damn thing is so expensive to build….

    Bottom line? Who is seasteading RIGHT NOW? Hmmm, lets see. Richy Sowa, for sure!. As we speak, he’s chilling on his island smoking a fat one and drinking few cervesas….

    #11091
    Profile photo of tusavision
    tusavision
    Participant

    I would also postulate that you can not write down a “unique size” as the “suitable size” always depends on the owners wallet. This implies that we can not go with a “closed tiling concept” we have to find a way to “raft up” “houseboats” of different size and make. This means we should think in a “raft up structure” that creates “parking spaces” for a wide variety of “individual houseboats” instead of a “designed seastead” – we might call it a floating marina development .

    So there are 2 different functions the “housing” solved by the “hardened houseboat” and the connection or “raft up structure” basicly the floating walkways between houseboats that can have a kind of breakwater funtion. A third part would be the “public floats” that create social space to interact outside your home.

    So back to thread theme – minimum – is create a couple of hardened houseboats and connect them. The budget for the houseboats comes from the owners – it would be great to have financing for a couple of floating walkways to provide the connections.

    I’ve been struggling for the past 48 hours to try and decide on the ideal size of “tile” and I think you’re right.

    Although in the long run: making buoyant “tiles” as standardized as lumber will serve our interests: before we can organize a standard, we should probably establish an industry in the first place.

    I tenatively propose that we strive to dimension any modular tiles around the metric system. This is a request, and not a demand. I think the only other sensical design suggestion would be the standards architects use based off of wood dimensions.

    Drawing inspiration from guage blocks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_block

    • An 81 piece set of gauge block was developed by Johansson(s??) and is capable of covering wider ranges of dimensions.

    0.1001” to 0.1009” in 0.0001” steps

    0.1010” to 0.1490” in 0.0010” steps

    0.0500” to 0.9500” in 0.0500” steps

    1.0000”, 2.0000”, 3.0000”, 4.0000” blocks

    (2 wear blocks at 0.0500”)

    Using a similar system of metric fractions and angles: you could hypothetically approximate any geometric gaps.

    Realistically: it may be better to go the eMachineshop route and make ferrocement tiles/hulls to order, vs “push” manufacturing.

    Strategies to overcome gaps: used tires are a free building material, and there’s an unlimited supply available to any scuba diver who can afford the air compressor to pull up all those tire-reef disasters. You may even be able to get a grant from the NOAA.

    Tires have the benefit of being stretchy, and coming in a number of standard sizes. They can be made buoyant with intertubes, and I imagine a substance exists which can be cast in to fill up the doughnut hole.

    I think the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensairity strategy of using inflated cylinders as a spring to seperate platforms has a lot of potential. If you wedge the perimeters and don’t have any tall blades of grass: bumping in to eachother wouldn’t be the end of the world, however I don’t anticipate it would be necessary if ships just kept a suitible distance from eachother in rough weather.


    Anyone good at writing grants? Getting the money to buy a scuba compressor and some lift bags to hoist out some tire reefs via volunteers…

    NOAA would be on that like flies on shit. If you use expanding foam and intertubes to turn those “reefs” in to floating islands: you’ve got a seastead for your tire reef removing volunteers to live one. The entire opperation is practically free and it’s good PR.

    The only other thing that comes to mind is that welded pipe structures like concert stages are flexible and easily expanded. They require nothing but a welder, chop saw, and pipe, and some means of buoyancy. They can be temporarily sunk by stowing the walkways and using a variable buoyancy ballast system, while the boats docked on it can scatter until the storm passes.

    Then the floating port just rises back to the surface on a timer/hydrophone trigger and signals everyone via marine radio with it’s GPS coordinates and a signal light.

    This same concept could even be applied as a small floating dry dock until the funding is there for ferrocement. Would be a handy service to have at your port of origin, and the money could be applied to financing the floating ferrocement drydock.

    #11092
    Profile photo of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    elspru, looks like you are going on with the ferrosheating aproach – i would have a look into concrete reinforcement with plastic fiber instead of steel wire in that case

    like a plastic net or fence?

    - any steel in a concrete matrix that is not at least 2,5cm deep embeded into the matrix is in risk of corrosion – so for very thin layers you might want to avoid steel completly – i have only seen examples for perfect protected reinforcement when the structure is thick walled and the reinforcement is deep embeded – there are many desaster cases when steel reinforcement is near the surface of the concrete matrix.

    okay, so I guess can have the reinforcement closer to the inside of the boat.

    If we make forged steel, or low-carbon steel,

    then it should be much less suceptible.

    Just like that iron pillar in india.

    Meanwhile,

    ferrocement boats even with metal mesh,

    have already proven life expectancies of about 100 years.

    What concerns the 18m wave breaking over your boat

    …well no man made structure

    including all yachts and most ships and industrial platforms can not take this -

    planning this as “expected load case” is way overbuild things…

    Wil

    Really?

    I thought it was mostly a geometrical problem,

    as long as it shaped properly or can submerge,

    it should be just fine and dandy.

    Like your concrete submarines would be fine,

    I’m quite sure, even if such a wave occured.

    Also a houseboat that used structural I-beams,

    would probably be fine as well.

    Like the octopod, or hexapods earlier mentioned.

    [/quote]

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #11095

    I did not say it can not work – just said i have seen disaster cases where the concrete matrix was destroyed by the rust (the rust has 4 times the volume of the steel its expansion just rips the matrix apart) – so if you don´t deep embed (what is the classic way to avoid rusting steel over dozends of decades) then you need to analyze exactly what to do, to avoid that process – otherwise you create another disaster example – i am sure it can be done somehow but i have not sufficient data to give acertive advice how – my favorite for extreme thin concrete would be to avoid steel and go to other types of reinforcement when you work below 6 cm thick.

    Some concrete shell structures have a extreme crash worthyness – so they might survive 18m breaking waves in some cases – but keep in mind such a wave broke oil tanker PRESTIGE in half. It is a event that strikes maybe once in 1000 years of being at sea – certainly not a “normal load case” any seaworthy structure is built to deal with.

    #11096

    What if we start with a single floating element instead of budgeting “monster marina suburb at once” – keep it organic growing – each “parking box” has its own owner – so its own budget. You can grow as long as you can sell.

    But you have to select the spot where you implement it wisely – or general waterfront development issues will create a “roadblock”. You can have anything from a “tsunamy wave hardened housboat habitat” that can stand allone to a wooden house on a floating platform that needs a almost perfect breakwater.

    But this is not somethings that can decided on the “design computer” this is something that the buyer decides in the “buy a floating home showroom” – and the raft up structure design is something that you have to negociate with the local mayor and his waterfront development plan. The “engineering” is a piece of cake and already done.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #11097

    Example here is a existing example how it can start. – the floating offices in cardiff marina.

    This would be a “low end hardened living space with work purpose” – certainly not a yacht – but blends into existing yacht infrastructure – seems that cardiff marina allows live aboard in some cases.

    yourcardiff.walesonline.co.uk/2010/05/10/floating-offices-in-cardiff-marina/

    The H2Office spaces are pods that cost around £60,000 and allow one to three people to work comfortably.

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