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Seasteading start up budget.

Home Forums Community General Chat Seasteading start up budget.

This topic contains 99 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS OCEANOPOLIS 2 years, 5 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 100 total)
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  • #11040
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    obviously #1. is out of question, for now. #2. and #3. are feasible, with #3. the most feasible. When you said “barell size” you mean, 50 gal? or 80 gal? or 6′x4′x3′? or?…

    Here are my thoughts on this one. How about a compromise? Somewhere inbetween #2. and #3. Lets say around 30′-35′ LOA, houseboat like (sort of speaking). Why? I think they will be an easier sale, since people can start liverboad them immediately, in contrast to buying, lets say 20 “barrel-do it yourself” floats that the owner has to raft up, build on it, plumbing, electric, carpentry, drywall, etc, and THEN tow it in the right spot. People dont like projects. They like to jump on it and go play and have fun.

    The SPOT now. Good point,…location, location. I say it shud be close by from where you build them. But before we talk about that, let me ask you a very important question. Regardless if the decision will be “barrel” size or “inbetween” how do you perceive this venture?

    A. Do you see it as a group of entrepreneurs (or a big, fat wallet) financing it, finding a building location, building them and then selling it to the general public while providing for a raft up location close by a metropolitan area (“tolerance agreement”) so people can commute to work?

    B. Do yoy see it as a group of entrepreneurs financing it, finding a building location, building them, raft them up and then moving aboard (not necesarelly all of them, but enough people to run it) and start operating it as a “SeedSeastead” business, in a location conductive to such businesses? And grow from there.

    It is important to answer this 2 questions first. One reason is that @ this level of entry point we will operate inside the EEZ/ territorial waters of an existing nation. Thats a fact. The “rules” of federal, state, county, city, EPA, Fishing and Wildlife, OSHA, etc.,( I’m sure I missed @ least 5 or 6 other blood sucking “agencies”) will have a big impact on the success of the venture, therefore determining its format. We shud go for what’s “easier” in terms of less permiting and bureaucratic interference, and the most profitable.

    I would go for the “inbetween” size Modules and B format. Why? First of all, we can do better than “barrel” size floats…Second, I think it will be easier to pull it off (the least bureaucratic interference, and no selling involved – the market for ANY boat is shut here in US, nobody buys nothing,…). And maybe most important, A. is more like a business based ON a seasteading format, while B. is more like seasteading AS a business format, therefore much closer to our goals.

    Back to the SPOT or location. I would say the Florida Keys under the B. format.

    One good location would be in the Biscayne Bay, somewhere between Biscayne Key and Coral Gables, anchored close by the Intercoastal Waterway channel. (check on Google Earth). Lots of local boat traffic (Miami Metropolitan area and the suburbs are only couple of miles away) and also the southbound cruisers.

    A floating island conceived as a weekend destination or a stop over for cruisers. If you are one of the tens of thousands of cruisers southbound from September to late December, and you are sailing “on the inside” (the Intercoastal Waterway) and you’ve been @ sea for 3-4 weeks now, would you stop by? Hell yeah. If we will offer fuel, ice, cheap dockage, clean restrooms w/ hot showers, a Tiki Bar w/ cold drinks and fat burgers, a nice sandy beach w/ hammocks and good Jimmy Buffet selection on the jukebox, people will stay for days @ a time. Add few local girls patronizing and its a sailor’s paradise! Comercial fishing and fish farming can be done too.

    These businesses aboard will be started gradualy, not all @ once, thus the initial investment is kept low. But the initial Modules design will have everything planed for future expension. Fuel tanks, water tanks, holding tanks, cabins for rent, location of the bar, the fuel dock location, etc. Then build 7-8 of them, float them, move them to the location of choice, raft them up, anchor, get permits and start operate. In the begining, advertise it as a place to take your boat to, to BBQ, hang out, swim around, snorkle, fish. A floating getaway. All you need aboard so far are some grills, benches, umbrellas, a small kiosk to sell, soft drinks, beer and wine, ice, snacks and bait. Play some music. Throw some rocks on the bottom, around your swinging anchoring circle to form an artificial reef. Follow the business format of a State Park, and charge, lets say,$10/ person/ day, @ the “gate”. People will come. They will have fun and like it and come back with more friends. The “word of mouth advertising” will kick in. 1 will tell 5 while matching football and boobies @ Hooters. More will come and cash will start rolling in. Now you expend. The kiosk is becoming the Tiki Bar and Restaurant and the beer and wine licence a full liquer licence. You set up a menu, a kitchen and start serving food. You start selling rooms (cabins) for overnight stay. More cash is rolling in. You get the pumps and permits for your fuel dock. Set it up and start operate. Buy a comercial fishing boat, permits and start fishing. Now its the Tiki Bar and Fish Market. Some of the fish you sell in the Tiki Bar, some to the people who are visiting and some on the open market. You can think now of building some more Modules and add 30-40% to your area. And you do that. You are a decent size island now. Your infrastructure is in place that it can support you entering the real estate market. Island living @ its best, away from the smog, traffic, and crime. Your sq ft is HOT now and it sells 10 times your production cost. You build more Modules and you double in size. And sell more real estate for 20 times your production cost.You are a pretty big size now. Now you start building vertically, increase your freeboard, start reenforcing your structure overall and invest a big chunk of your net profit in the alternative energy, solar, wind, H2 production, fuel cells. Its time to go. Anchor ahoy, and bye bye. And while under way, maybe you gonna lit up a Cuban cigar, sip on your favorite XO, and tell yoursel: “Not too shabby for 10 years work”.

    Another exellent location would be further south around the Key West, by the coral reef. (outside the National Marine Santuary). Same format, floating island, but as a boat & breakfast by the reef. The local turist maket is huge. With only 18,000 permanent residents, Old Town Key West, an island 1 mile x 5 miles, gets 1.5 million turists a year. And most of them (other then some hardcore drunks hanging on Duval St.) they all go snorkling, diving or fishing in the reef. From September to July you wont find a decent room in town for less then $ 200/ night.

    #11041
    Avatar of tusavision
    tusavision
    Participant

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_Island

    Why don’t we contact this guy and ask him if he wants neighbors?

    1 is a novelty, 2 is the beginning of a movement.

    If we can generate economic growth for the hosting country in the process: it will become encouraged.

    Tours seem like the most obvious candidate, but eco-friendly floating campground will bring in the nomadic hippies and will be good tourism dollars for the local municipality. Particularly if you grow more food than you consume.

    The “Work Trade” movement would be an easy source of warm bodies. It’s consistent with their ideology, and simply by making the entire thing organic and involving the word “hydroponics” via desalination: we can bring them on board/possibly get grants for “sustainable gardening” techniques.

    We could also sell “seasalt” while we’re at it. Just need the solar power for the desalination. I imagine a solar oven can get hot enough to make steam.

    Mexico is desperate for tourism right now to say the least, and it’s a good base of operation for submarine research.

    #11042
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant
    #11043

    ocean, that video is great !

    What Rishi Sowa is using is plastic bottles rafted up to barril size floating devices rafted up to an island. He is also on a “tolerance agreement” by achieving a kind of “celebrity status” for his “waterfront development” –

    I doubth that Cancun authority will tolerate a group of “thousand floating hippies” to do the same – it is a high end tourism zone so the size of this development is limited.

    What is his merit is that he shows that you CAN do it without upfront money, you can even do it using mangroves and plants as “structural raft up” elements.

    He also shows that the election of the SPOT is the most important thing (who can tell me 3000 spots where they would send you the police BEFORE you come to the point to raft up ten cubic meters of plastic trash – claiming “waterfront development”).

    What is also interesting is that Sowa is now using a new technique (instead of diving below the island) that was described as BUOYANCY INJECTOR in the floating island thread.

    He is also teaching a good lection how the JOB part can work – he is living from waterfront tourism – just as octavian suggested above. I totally agree with ocean about how seasteads will develop from shore dependent to the high seas by going trough a natural process of activities. We have currently examples of tourism and aquaculture for small units and industrial activities for city block sized units (oil, gas, engergy).

    A final lession that we can learn from Sowa and even more from Heyerdahl is that the structural needs of floating islands are very little understood by traditional engineers, Sowa is floating in a protected lagoon, but Heyerdahl made it over the pacific ocean in a flat raft made of 8 tree trunks rafted together by plant fiber ropes. Have a look at the Kon Tiki raft how it is NOT overwashed in the high seas, how it is NOT teared apart by the waves, the hog and sag forces, how it is providing a stable rolling free platform much more pleasent to bo on than a ship hull.

    Video Kon-Tiki in open ocean

    http://www.youtube.com/watch

    So if they can do it with plastik bottles and logs, and plant fiber holding it together – sure WE can do it with concrete shells, poststressing, cast connections, etc… much better.

    Wil

    #11046
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Another lesson to learn from Kon Tiki or Poppa Neutrino is that this rafts are sailable using centerboards. And not only downwind but on a beam reach, and even able to tack. See this article http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/thor/kon-tiki.php. I think seasteaders shud seriosly consider the ability to sail as a “must have” when designing a seastead. Regardless if coastal, or offshore, it will be foolish to burn diesel, when “wind is free” as sailors say. There is also a perception in many circles that future seasteads will have a futuristic “high tech” architectural “look”. It seems to me that this idea was subliminally imposed upon us by the media, sci-fi magazines, movies, etc. But the reality so far seems totally different. Plastic bottles, plywood, balsa logs rafted up with hemp rope, etc, all these are working just fine! ” Low tech” usually translates in low start up budget, therefore a very viable approach to seasteading.

    As an example of how “low tech seasteading” might work is my personal experience living in Nort Carolina, on the shores of Pamlico Sound. The whole area is heavily forested with pine trees. Sailing around the creeks there I have noticed everywhere faling trees littering the beaches. It would be a no brainer to just pick them up and tow them to a location to be rafted up with steel cables. And when I said raft them up I meant “pile them up” because there are thousands of them. A 100′ “logstead” can be built in less than a month, for almost free. If steel mesh is wraped around the bottom and a current is ran thru, in few years (or just a couple maybe) the bottom will be “ferrocemented” due to sea-cretion (biorock).

    #11047
    Avatar of ssteve
    ssteve
    Participant

    If you choose the “barrel size” option then they could be a carpet of “salter’s ducks” which would absorb most of the wave energy and generate electricity at the same time, if properly designed 32 ducks each 2m x 1m might support a 10m x 10m relatively stable platform on which to build your seastead, the platform would be supported by legs attached to the “carpet” to give clearance for the ducks to move up and down with the waves.

    #11048

    Ocean, i agree a flatraft concrete shell structure like this one could sail (with centerboard) at least as fine as Kon-Tiki did …the thing would not pass as a “yacht” in royal yacht club marina, but with a dome house on it, live aboard could be very enjoyable in the high seas – and even more in a quiet anchor bay. It would avoid the sowa style hippie trash image and could be percieved as “serious waterfront development” when connected to land.

    #11049
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    but if the “ducks” will provide floatation, it means that they will sink a bit, or maybe will be totally submerged (depending on how much weight they will support}. In this case, are they still gonna work @ the same efficiency? Aren’t they supposed to be floating to be moved by the waves?

    The idea is pretty interesting.

    #11050
    Avatar of ssteve
    ssteve
    Participant

    This is where design comes in, I would hope that the ducks will carry the weight of a seastead without sinking too much, if the idea works then they could be mass produced and used not just for seasteads, but also for wave power stations off any coast providing clean energy to a country, they could be dragged to a disaster area and provide electricity to support a relief operation.

    #11054
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    Another lesson to learn from Kon Tiki or Poppa Neutrino is that this rafts are sailable using centerboards. And not only downwind but on a beam reach, and even able to tack. See this article http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/thor/kon-tiki.php. I think seasteaders shud seriosly consider the ability to sail as a “must have” when designing a seastead. Regardless if coastal, or offshore, it will be foolish to burn diesel, when “wind is free” as sailors say. There is also a perception in many circles that future seasteads will have a futuristic “high tech” architectural “look”. It seems to me that this idea was subliminally imposed upon us by the media, sci-fi magazines, movies, etc. But the reality so far seems totally different. Plastic bottles, plywood, balsa logs rafted up with hemp rope, etc, all these are working just fine! ” Low tech” usually translates in low start up budget, therefore a very viable approach to seasteading.

    As an example of how “low tech seasteading” might work is my personal experience living in Nort Carolina, on the shores of Pamlico Sound. The whole area is heavily forested with pine trees. Sailing around the creeks there I have noticed everywhere faling trees littering the beaches. It would be a no brainer to just pick them up and tow them to a location to be rafted up with steel cables.

    how about spruce root cables? they are also quite strong, used in birchbark canoes.

    Then it’s all natural and biodegradable.

    And when I said raft them up I meant “pile them up” because there are thousands of them. A 100′ “logstead” can be built in less than a month, for almost free. If steel mesh is wraped around the bottom and a current is ran thru, in few years (or just a couple maybe) the bottom will be “ferrocemented” due to sea-cretion (biorock).

    quite possibly you are correct,

    though corals generally grow in warmer areas,

    seashells and barnacles could be considered “biorock”.

    I’m not sure how many layers or time it would take for it to become waterproof biorock however.

    would certainly be good to test it out.

    do you see any biorock on driftwood?

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #11056
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    Ocean, i agree a flatraft concrete shell structure like this one could sail (with centerboard) at least as fine as Kon-Tiki did …the thing would not pass as a “yacht” in royal yacht club marina, but with a dome house on it, live aboard could be very enjoyable in the high seas – and even more in a quiet anchor bay.

    ya, flat rafts,

    I would’t’ feel safe on it,

    unless I could go inside it during a big storm.

    It would avoid the sowa style hippie trash image

    excuse me, but please watch you language.

    Note that Hippies originated in San Fransico,

    also TSI originated in San Fransico,

    so one might say TSI is a continuation of Hippies,

    Hippies looking for a home, go seasteading.

    and could be percieved as “serious waterfront development” when connected to land.

    That might slide down a big wave and topple over.

    potentially crushing or drowning everyone that was ontop.

    The reserve boyancy also looks minimal.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #11058

    The point is – Kon-Tiki made it over the pacific – trough storms without topple over, not even being near somwhere to that – on contrary to what naval engineers had predicted. – conclusion is naval engineers tend to have acertive opinions while they talk about ship hulls – they frequently do widley underestimate the seaworthyness of flat rafts .

    Comparing flat raft to flat raft what is safer the concrete shell in the first picture or Kon-Tiki – what has better freeboard, the shelter on Kon-Tiki was safe during storms (they did not loose a single crew member) – but of course i too would prefer a wave impact resistant concrete shell structure on top of the flat raft for housing purpose.

    concrete shell structures can look that way…they are already in use for hurricane shelters, and hurricane safe houses in exposed areas as we speak.

    nothing against richard sowa – i like hippies – just it will be easier to get authority consent if the look and feel of the seastead is something like this…as base platform and as finished solution with “house on it”

    The units may they be round, kite, hexagon, squareshaped, boat shaped, triangular or whatever, finally rafted up as a marina development where “live aboard is welcome” (not prohibited as in most current marinas). Growing from protected space out to the open sea.

    It may be that at the end the sectors of industrial platform building, yaching, houseboats, and marina development get so widley overlapped that it is just called seasteading.

    The point is – and this brings us back to the start – it will stay elitist and not accessable for important parts of the population if we can not do it for average housing prices. – Concrete flat rafts and shell structure building is a way to get there.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #11060
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    I mean the WHY 58 shown above. Here is the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl4sbM_O_WA. Nice! (The teak decks alone will cost a “fortune” :-). Price tag: $160 Mil.

    Notice the hull configuration. Very close to a “raft-platform” type.

    Back to our “budget” now. It is very true that “mass seasteadification” will require lower prices in order to make it affordable for the “midlle class potential seasteader”. But we are not talking about that point in time now. That will be a different budget. To be more precise, when I started this thread, by “start up budget” I meant ONLY the budget required for a small seastead, 4 modules rafted up, population 20-30 seateaders max. The “low tech” aproach to seasteading for now. A Seedstead.

    Thats why initially I asked if $100,000.00 would suffice @ $ 25,000.00 per 35′ LOA module. Since mobile, only 1 module will have an engine, 3 will be powerless. (since rafted up they will move as a whole). This will save on construction cost. (engines are expensive)

    The Seedstead construction is a matter of paramount importance to the cause of seasteading because of the power of example. A Seedstead as a “floor model” in the “show room of seasteading” will do wonders. People from all over the world will be able to see, touch, visit, experience. That is a very important step from just imagining.

    #11061
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    I doubt that the ducks can be used for flotation and still perform well. ( I might be wrong,..) They will have to support the whole weight of the seastead and they will be submerged. But one thing is for sure. The raw of ducks ( from reading the pattent and looking @ the drawings) has to be parallel to the waves to work. Therefore, your seastead has to always be oriented abeam to the sea, laying a hull for the ducks to work. Thats a very uncomfortable and dangerous “point of sail”, because in big seas it will roll like crazy and can easily capsize.

    #11062

    Ocean, -WHY – is a “yacht aproach” (pricetag 160mil) i am sure we can have such a structure (2.400 tons of displacement) in concrete shell building for 800.000 euro (1mil USD ) skipping mahagony and gliz . I find it interresting that wally is postulating the end of the “ship shaped yacht” and presenting “flat raft islands” as the future. Their triangular flatraft is also interesting for maintaining a ability to move and having a bow for withstanding extreme waves. Could be an interesting alternative to catamaran designs – similar stability but a much better calm water access at the king sized heck platform.

    I agree completly with your “show room” argument – we need to stop to discuss and plan and over-engineer concepts and start building things.

    What is finally the BEST can not be defined by discussion it must be defined by the market (buyer behavior). There are probably multiple answers depending on the buyers needs and viewpoints.

    One of the reasons why i stopped discussing concrete submarines on forums was that i found out that discussion never ends – (there are even some 20% of americans still are discussing if moonlanding ever took place) – so what is your chance to win a discussion with people “questioning your concepts”. Discussion only ends if you can bring people to the showroom and make them see and feel your concept. Building it is the way of excellence to move a discussion forward. Imagine Heyerdahl still discussing with naval engineers if a raft can make it over the pacific – he just made it and did it – discussion over. This is the way we should move our projects forward.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

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