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Seasteading Outpost: Belize

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This topic contains 235 replies, has 35 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of Pastor_Jason Pastor_Jason 2 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 76 through 90 (of 236 total)
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  • #6046
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Which property do you want to buy, Pastor Jason?

    P.S.:Pls check your e-mail and your messages. I am shopping for some boats for this venture.

    #6047
    Avatar of Pastor_Jason
    Pastor_Jason
    Participant

    Lasse wrote:

    Pastor_Jason, from what you say it definitely sounds like Belize is a good place to do this. But I don’t understand your reply to the wave issue which you posted on the blog. You wrote:

    I think anyone talking about “wave issues” doesn’t understand the idea of a seastead outpost. We’re NOT in the ocean, it’s on land. Once a seastead is made it can float to where-ever.

    For the record, Belize doesn’t have much waves. The country is loaded with lagoons and sports a fantasticly huge coral reef and series of atolls that serve as breakwaters. We’ve got plenty of space to float in “sheltered waters” down there.

    I replied:

    Jason, these lagoons and atolls you mention, do they contain any international waters? The reason I suggested the Mediterranean and the Baltic Sea is that they are both big enough to have international waters in them.

    Yes, a seastead, once it is built, can sail to whereever. But during this journey it has to be able to endure the waves. And if you’re going to move it to a sea on the other side of the world, why not just build it there in the first place?

    You say that the ultimate goal of this project is to build an oceanworthy seastead and send it to international waters. I’m just saying that getting this final step done will be easier in the Baltic or the Mediterranean rather than the Carribean, because the waves are significantly smaller. There may be other more important reasons to pick Belize anyway, but I don’t think you’ve adressed this point yet.

    [/quote]

    Can I answer your question with a question?

    What is it about less waves in the ocean that would make it easier to build a seastead? I assume that most of the construction of a large platform will be done on land and launched, similar to any other ocean going vessel. Waves don’t even compute in the construction process. If waves are an issue, why not find a location near the doldrums… the ocean gets as flat as glass some days.

    Belize is a good location for a seasteading outpost. The outpost will work on seastead technology and hopefully build a seastead. If you find Belize on a map you’ll see that it is completely open to the caribbean sea. Once a seastead is built it can sail/float anywhere. As for “international waters”, that’s where we want seasteads to operate… not where we want to construct them.

    It seems as though the problems you are looking at are putting the cart before the horse. Development of a seastead design and engineering issues need to come before worries about eventual location of the seastead (international waters and minimal wave issues are just some of the factors that will go into this decision). The purpose of a seastead outpost, like the one operating in SF Bay area, is to focus on developing seastead tech. Belize is a good spot for this.

    Live Well!

    -Jason

    #6048
    Avatar of Carl-Pålsson
    Carl-Pålsson
    Participant

    As for “international waters”, that’s where we want seasteads to operate… not where we want to construct them.

    Why not?

    Isn’t seasteading supposed to be an improvement over doing stuff on land?

    If it is not, what is the point?

    #6049
    Avatar of Hephaeston
    Hephaeston
    Participant

    Because it’s hard. If we had sophisticated enough nanotech to push a button and have a seastead rise out of the constituent elements of the sea then we wouldn’t have any issues whatsoever, in fact we’d be living at sea now on ballast of tons upon tons of gold (well, except the world would be completely different).

    Of course we want to be able to build this stuff at sea, have ultra-efficient power generation, never grow old, and have 2 girls for every guy (my apologies to any women that may be here that object … if there are any). But in reality we work with what we’re given, and what we have now is an ability to live safely (barring especially coersive gov’t) on terra firma. The point is get out there any safe way we can. Which for now, unfortunately, means working off of land.

    And by improvement, yes it would be better. No it would not, and will not, fix everything instantaneously.

    #6050
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    I dont know how many of you had to undergo repairs @ sea, but I did. From small ones to big ones. It takes 3-4 times longer than on the hard, mainly because of the constant state of motion. To build @ sea would be as difficult. Also, all the materials have to be shiped on board, a huge expense if you are 2000 miles offshore. I wouldnt attempt it.

    #6051
    Avatar of DM8954
    DM8954
    Participant

    Well, at the moment, there is no seastead design for us to build, on land or at sea. That’s the point of this venture: design, research, testing, and building (currently non-existant) seasteads.

    If someone wants to eventually live in the black sea, they should start “Seasteading Outpost: Ukraine” or the like. You can only project so far into the future. For the current needs and preferences of the main person involved here, Belize best fits the criteria. I may someday want to live in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, but I’m not going to move to Hawaii or put out to sea in a canoe hoping to build my future home from floatsam along the way.

    It’s nice to look to the future and/or dream, but you can’t just walk around with binoculars on, you’re bound to trip and hurt yourself pretty badly. Take a look, every once in a while, at where you want to end up but for the most part you need to pay attention to your surroundings and focus on your next few steps.

    I think we’re a little off track, as it were. It sounds like Pastor Jason is really serious about this and the location is somewhere on the Coast of Belize. I’m sure it will be easier to find property on his trip down there but it wouldn’t hurt to post any interesting links we may find to property listings that seem to fit the general criteria.

    I couldn’t find anything better than the listing you found on the lagoon so far.

    I’d just like to warn you about not getting enough land. 50 acres should be plenty but a lot of the other plots I’ve seen are either thousands of acres (only $400/acre, though) or only 10 or less. I’d say 10 might be the lower limit for something like this. Not because I’ve got my binoculars on in preparation for hundreds of refugees but because you might be surprised how fast you might use up the land you buy. In a given parcel of land, some of it will be unbuildable. Certain setbacks and space requirements (even if you don’t have to deal with actual building codes) and walking paths & driveways will further cut down on what you can use. It won’t be like a city lot somewhere in the US with a flat, square acre of weed-free lawn; there will likely be lowlands, rough patches, drainage considerations, etc. that could make even farming out of the question in a few corners of whatever you end up with. Planning and good design will help, but you’ll never be able to squeeze 100% out of it.

    I’m sure you know all this… I’m just trying to reiterate it for you. Once you buy the land, spreading out after that isn’t guaranteed.

    Sorry I couldn’t find any other options for you yet. Let us know how it goes.

    #6052
    Avatar of Lasse-Birk-Olesen
    Lasse-Birk-Olesen
    Participant

    Pastor_Jason wrote:
    Can I answer your question with a question?

    What is it about less waves in the ocean that would make it easier to build a seastead?

    It seems as though the problems you are looking at are putting the cart before the horse. Development of a seastead design and engineering issues need to come before worries about eventual location of the seastead (international waters and minimal wave issues are just some of the factors that will go into this decision). The purpose of a seastead outpost, like the one operating in SF Bay area, is to focus on developing seastead tech. Belize is a good spot for this.

    I’m not saying you should build the seastead on the ocean. But building a seastead on land to handle 10 meter waves is a different story than building a seastead to handle 5 meter waves.

    Waves are probably the single most powerful and price-raising force you have to deal with on the ocean. The energy carried by a wave increases by the square of it’s height so just doubling the wave height from 5 to 10 meters results in quadrupling the factor of units of energy from 25 to 100! Your seastead has to be able to withstand this force. There have been reports of even large ships being, not just turned over, but crushed by waves.

    There is no doubt that it will be an easier engineering task to design for calm waters and it will be much cheaper to build as well. This means that the ultimate goal of the Seasteading Outpost, to build a functional seastead for international waters, can be achieved sooner if it is built with direct access to calm international waters.

    If waves are an issue, why not find a location near the doldrums… the ocean gets as flat as glass some days.

    Sure, setting out for any calm body of water would be an advantage in my opinion, I’m not proposing the European seas for personal reasons. However, from what my Googling tells me, the Doldrums are occasionally plagued by hurricanes. And the distance to any landbased city seems to be longer.

    #6056
    Avatar of livefreeortry
    livefreeortry
    Participant

    Hi Pastor_Jason, here are a few properties in Belize I’ve come across:

    http://www.4321.co.il/property/property.asp?name=Belize&p=41986

    Location: Turneffe Atoll.

    Size : 10 acres

    Price: US$ 189900

    Misc.: undeveloped property with 500 feet beachfront on Caribbean Sea, price reduced once, “motivated” seller.

    http://www.realestateinbelize.org/classified.php/listing/874

    Location: Turneffe Atoll

    Size : 25.22 acres

    Price: US$300000. A bit more than your budget, but plenty of land on an island,plus access to both ocean and lagoon.

    Misc.: 855 Caribbean Sea Frontage as well as access to a lagoon.

    http://www.belizejewelrealtors.com/index.php?action=listingview&listingID=44

    Location: Manatee Bar River, 28 miles south of Belize City

    Size: 19.72 acres

    Price: US$ 195000.

    Misc: 417 feet of Caribbean Sea beach.

    http://www.emeraldfutures.com/200acres/welcome.html

    Location: Western and Sapodilla Lagoons, 25 miles south of Belize City

    Size : 200 acres!!!

    Price: US$ 350000 negotiable. Much more than your upper limit,but its negotiable and HUGE.

    Misc: Mile of frontage on each of Western and Southern lagoons, and access to the Caribbean via the Manatee Bar River. Largest colony of Caribbean Manatees, great attraction for an eco-resort. Also excellent fishing.

    http://www.belizejewelrealtors.com/index.php?action=listingview&listingID=54

    Location : Southern Lagoon

    Size: 30 acres

    Price : US$ 90000 only!

    Misc: Access to both lagoon and the Caribbean Sea. No photo shown.

    I’ll be going through somemore sites later. How aboout riverfront property?

    #6057
    Avatar of Pastor_Jason
    Pastor_Jason
    Participant

    Lasse wrote:

    I’m not saying you should build the seastead on the ocean. But building a seastead on land to handle 10 meter waves is a different story than building a seastead to handle 5 meter waves.

    Waves are probably the single most powerful and price-raising force you have to deal with on the ocean. The energy carried by a wave increases by the square of it’s height so just doubling the wave height from 5 to 10 meters results in quadrupling the factor of units of energy from 25 to 100! Your seastead has to be able to withstand this force. There have been reports of even large ships being, not just turned over, but crushed by waves.

    There is no doubt that it will be an easier engineering task to design for calm waters and it will be much cheaper to build as well. This means that the ultimate goal of the Seasteading Outpost, to build a functional seastead for international waters, can be achieved sooner if it is built with direct access to calm international waters.

    I feel like I’m talking to a wall on this topic, so I’ll address it one more time then I don’t want to hear anything more about “wave height being a factor in Seastead Outpost location”. Lasse, you are right about wave height being a HUGE factor in seastead design. Seasteads I imagine will need to be able to deal with very large waves as they will travel the globe. This is a factor for seastead design. This question has NOTHING to do with where a group of ‘steaders settle to work on seasteading designs and technology.

    Either way, the point is moot. Belize has one of the largest barrier reefs in the world sheltering her waters. Wave height rarely rises above 1 meter and is often at half that height. Further, we may be locating in a sheltered lagoon which opens into the caribbean sea (international waters access is mandatory), which further reduces waves in our operating area. The Caribbean in general has tons of “sheltered areas” due to the proliferation of islands so in the event of a storm we’ll have several nooks to choose from to wait out the weather.

    So to summarize: Wave height is a factor for seastead design and has nothing to do with the location of a seastead outpost. Even if this factor was determined to be an important one, Belize has low waves (especially where we’re looking) so the point is moot either way. Now this thread can get back to the work of building a seastead outpost in Belize, I don’t want to see anymore posts about wave height. Those posts should be directed to another thread like this one:

    http://www.seasteading.org/interact/forums/engineering/structure-designs/defeating-waves-through-size

    Personal questions should be directed to my private messages. Let’s keep these threads focused on topic. Want to bring up another topic? Make a thread and post a link to it on this one if it is relevent.

    Live Well!

    -Jason

    #6058
    Avatar of Pastor_Jason
    Pastor_Jason
    Participant

    Post properties on the DRP (Distributed Research Project) here:

    http://www.seasteading.org/interact/forums/research/distributed-research-projects/drp-seastead-outpost-location

    Make comments about those properties on this thread. =)

    Thanks livefreeortry, good work!!

    Live Well!

    -Jason

    #6065
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    You said: “Well, at the moment, there is no seastead design for us to build, on land or at sea. That’s the point of this venture: design, research, testing, and building (currently non-existant) seasteads.”

    I do have a design of a seastead that I intend to build. That’s why I am active on this subject, and when Pastor Jason decides to invest in Belize I will get involved financially and plan to sublease some of his land for the purpose of building my seastead. (of course, depending on his aproval). I am also ready to invest in the Outpost venture of eco-turism, specifically, boat rental and tours, snorkling,diving, and boating education in general. My original plan was to start building in June-July. I put it on hold because I liked the Outpost Belize ideea that a seastead can be built in conjunction w/a business directly related to it, that would involve people interested in the subject. And I am working on it to see this venture become a reality.

    There are many designs out there to be built. What is missing is the general consensus of which one to choose, and also the lack of financial commitment to do so.

    #6066
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Ty for updating us on the wave situation. There are waves everywhere on the oceans. What this have to do w/the Outpost Belize subject?

    #6075
    Avatar of Pastor_Jason
    Pastor_Jason
    Participant

    Octavian,

    You know I love you man… don’t go bringing up this wave thing all over again on this thread.

    No waves… this thread is now the doldrums when it comes to waves.

    Nada Wave-a.

    Fin.

    Waves es el diablo.

    Comprende?

    =)

    On a side note… (more on topic) I’m seeing some action on the DRP… keep ‘em coming boys!

    Live Well!

    -Jason

    #6076
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Forgive me Father I have sinned….

    On the subject now…Let me know what you are up to. If I start building my project, I will have my time and money locked into it. I do have to set up a schedule of my own and its all depending on the Belize Outpost outcome. Time is of essence. Ahoy, O.

    #6093
    Avatar of Pastor_Jason
    Pastor_Jason
    Participant

    What have I been up to? Only everything! Arranging my personal affairs, researching specific properties, putting together a list of gear for the initial build phase, drawing up an agreement for those who participate… nevermind continuing to work, pastor, and find time to be a husband and a father!

    On that note: Carrie and I just found out that we’re expecting a new family member. Child #3 (yet to be named) will arrive sometime in January. I’m praying for a boy this time… already got 2 girls… with my luck though, it’ll be another girl.

    I don’t have a timeline currently for SO:B (lol… terrible acronym, I know!) but I will have one soon. It would be nice to see who all is seriously following this effort. What’s the best way to get a list of who everyone is and what skills/abilities they are bringing with them? Maybe a questionaire posted on the wiki that gets filled out and emailed in?

    I can’t help but feel that some things would go faster if I could delegate them… but there is no sence delegating a detailed work to an unskilled person. (Ex.: Make a list of what we need to bring with us to set up a PV system for 20-30 people… average KwH consumed? proper hardware? Needed tools? Not easy to answer.)

    Live Well!

    -Jason

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