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Seasteading Outpost: Belize

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This topic contains 235 replies, has 35 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Pastor_Jason Pastor_Jason 3 years ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 61 through 75 (of 236 total)
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  • #5904
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    is no longer cheap as it used to be. Also The Black Sea its worst then the Atlantic in the late fall and winter month in terms of not only the frequency of violent storms but temperature. I went to Naval Academy in Constantza Romania and spend about 6 years in the Black Sea. You dont want to be caught in a storm there,…In Belize, E of the coral reef its protected. I wouldnt built anything less than Lloyd +100 A1 in terms of hull specifications no matter if 40′ or 400′, or if used for Belize lagoon side or offshore. Ahoy, O.

    #5905
    Profile photo of Eelco
    Eelco
    Participant

    Lasse wrote:

    About Øresund: I wasn’t thinking about blocking ship lines. If the international waters trail is 490 meter wide, a seastead could easily use some of it without blocking any ships. Because I doubt there are freighters this wide.

    At least one ship either way. Then there are safety margins. Of course it ‘could’ work, technically, but it sounds like trouble.

    #5913
    Profile photo of Hephaeston
    Hephaeston
    Participant

    Obviously if there was a seastead that was 200m wide and a ship that was 290m wide that would not work with no margin for error. In practice ships that mass in the tens of thousands of tons need significant margin for error. I can tell you from personal experience that being 100m from a big Maersk container ship is harrowing (in a 32ft patrol craft), and being between that and another one is not something you want to do on a regular basis. 490m is like threading a needle if you’ve got more than one of the big ones around. The seastead would be a major obstacle to transit in a passage that narrow. Keep in mind there are times of low visibility (fog), times of crosswinds, waves, currents. Even if not ordered out of the lane by somebody, it’s a good way to get run over by 50,000t of steel and cargo.

    #5918
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Windward is an intentional community which has been developing self sufficiency for quite a few years. There is a lot of good information on techniques which would be applicable to Seastead Outpost. Their members spend an average of two hours per day on work for Windward, which supplies the group with its basic needs and expands their infrastructure. They are free to pursue their own businesses and interests the rest of the time. One of their members, Walt, posted to the Nation Builders list. Interestingly enough, they started out with the intent of eventually building a floating colony. They have recently started intern and apprentice programs, who spend an extra 2 hours on group projects and 4 hours on personal projects. The apprentice program charges $400-$500 per month depending on time of year. This leads to a Steward position in the community. Overall, they look like a proven model to use as a reference for Outpost.

    http://www.windward.org/

    #5925
    Profile photo of Thorizan
    Thorizan
    Participant

    Spam rocks.

    __________________________________________________
    There is no fate but what we make for ourselves. Each to his fate.

    #5955
    Profile photo of Patri
    Patri
    Keymaster

    Lasse – Great point about the waves. Obviously I don’t have this solidly i my thick head head, keep on reminding me every time I forget :).

    BTW, the current Ephemerisle: Europe plan is to wait until after Ephemerisle: Sacramento in October, see how it goes, maybe rest up for a month, and then investigate the possibilities for Ephemerisle: Europe in mid-2010. The goal is for E to be a reproducible event, so we’ll try to develop a template during the first one that can be used for future events.

    Lasse wrote:

    Or, in the Øresund waters between Denmark and Sweden there is a 490 meter wide trail of international waters that freighters use to get to the Baltic sea. But the distance between the two countries are only 4 km. This means you could be only 2 km away from two different coasts with two different cities but still be in international waters.

    How is it international waters if it is 2km from an existing country? 12nm is 22 kilometers of territorial seas.

    #5956
    Profile photo of Patri
    Patri
    Keymaster
    admiral wrote:

    Windward is an intentional community which has been developing self sufficiency for quite a few years. There is a lot of good information on techniques which would be applicable to Seastead Outpost. Their members spend an average of two hours per day on work for Windward, which supplies the group with its basic needs and expands their infrastructure. They are free to pursue their own businesses and interests the rest of the time. One of their members, Walt, posted to the Nation Builders list. Interestingly enough, they started out with the intent of eventually building a floating colony. They have recently started intern and apprentice programs, who spend an extra 2 hours on group projects and 4 hours on personal projects. The apprentice program charges $400-$500 per month depending on time of year. This leads to a Steward position in the community. Overall, they look like a proven model to use as a reference for Outpost.

    http://www.windward.org/

    Thanks, I keep meaning to post a link to Windward. They do seem like an excellent resource for an outpost interested in self-sufficiency. I have corresponded w/ Walt by email and he is a good guy. I think one of the technologies they are working on is generating biofuels from wood chips and other organic waste via some sort of methane process.

    #5960
    Profile photo of Lasse-Birk-Olesen
    Lasse-Birk-Olesen
    Participant

    Patri wrote:
    How is it international waters if it is 2km from an existing country? 12nm is 22 kilometers of territorial seas.

    I believe it’s a special treaty signed to allow ships to pass from the Atlantic into the Baltic sea without having to enter territorial waters. Admittedly I just read about it on a personal homepage, but I’ve sent an e-mail to the Danish sea authorities to hear if they can confirm it. Will post here when I get a reply.

    #5970
    Profile photo of Pastor_Jason
    Pastor_Jason
    Participant

    Patri wrote:
    admiral wrote:

    Windward is an intentional community which has been developing self sufficiency for quite a few years. There is a lot of good information on techniques which would be applicable to Seastead Outpost. Their members spend an average of two hours per day on work for Windward, which supplies the group with its basic needs and expands their infrastructure. They are free to pursue their own businesses and interests the rest of the time. One of their members, Walt, posted to the Nation Builders list. Interestingly enough, they started out with the intent of eventually building a floating colony. They have recently started intern and apprentice programs, who spend an extra 2 hours on group projects and 4 hours on personal projects. The apprentice program charges $400-$500 per month depending on time of year. This leads to a Steward position in the community. Overall, they look like a proven model to use as a reference for Outpost.

    http://www.windward.org/

    Thanks, I keep meaning to post a link to Windward. They do seem like an excellent resource for an outpost interested in self-sufficiency. I have corresponded w/ Walt by email and he is a good guy. I think one of the technologies they are working on is generating biofuels from wood chips and other organic waste via some sort of methane process.[/quote]

    I’ve spent a decent part of yesterday checking on Windward. Seems like this group has it together. I find it quite interesting that they too originally wanted to build a floating colony… back in the 70’s!! I’ve been pouring over their by-laws and steward/apprentice programs in an effort to refine my thoughts for Seastead Outpost: Belize. Patri, would you suggest I contact Walt… or someone else from this group?

    Live Well!

    -Jason

    #6033
    Profile photo of Patri
    Patri
    Keymaster

    definitely email Walt.

    #6040
    Profile photo of Pastor_Jason
    Pastor_Jason
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    It is my understanding, form comversations w/PastorJason, that the infrastructure that he wants to built on the Belize Outpost is mainly directed to:

    1) Support an eco-turism business.

    2)Support seasteading manufacturing.

    I dont know of how big of a scale he plans to build, but I dont think is so large (I am confident we will hear of it now:-). Also, it is my understanding that the main reason for the eco-turism part of the venture is to generate capital for building seasteads, which makes sense. Another point here would be that if the eco-turism section is a steady money maker shud be kept operational even after a seastead is built and sailed away. It will provide a good source of income until the seastead is achiveing the desired degree of self-sufficiency.

    Any good plan is set out in achievable stages. Initial work will be on fairly spartan quarters… MDI concrete eco-shells, whitewashed to reflect the heat; PV solar for an off-grid solution (I’ll build these modules myself in the U.S.); fresh water well, rain water collector and a simple septic system; and a larger “community house” with kitchen, entertainment and communication. Stage 1 can move very quickly (as we’ll be motivated to get out of the tent-town and live more comfortably)… achievable within months.

    From there we can build additional housing units to accomodate additional ‘steaders or to serve as eco-tourist rentals. We’ll begin to work (and build) self-sufficient industries like food production. We’ll launch a couple of seastead prototypes we develope in our “off-hours”. Stage 2 is composed of many smaller projects, each of which will be undertaken as the community has need. Agriculture will likely turn into hydroponics or aeroponic focused micro farming. PV Solar will hopefully give way to Algaeculture facilities producing fuel in excess of our needs. Well water and rain collection systems will be bolstered by passive desalination equipment. Stage 2 will continue until the Outpost can reach the economic “break-even” point.

    Stage 3 dawns with profitability. This income will be directed toward further developing profitable industries and/or seastead construction. At this point infrastructure likely needs to be expanded to provide for a full-on eco-tourism enterprise as well as additional staff grown from the ranks of future seasteaders. This stage ends with completion of a seastead. It is very difficult to plan beyond this point.

    This is just a broad idea of the larger plan. I haven’t been too active in posting on this topic recently because I’ve been working to make this happen. In the next week I’ll open up a few areas on the wiki page and TSI forums so everyone can participate in the work. Hard to believe one man can leverage his life in the U.S. to take a shot at truly building a new nation. The responsibility for doing this right is a large burden that I think on often. We’ll see how all of this rolls out.

    Live Well!

    -Jason

    #6041
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Lets use it wisely to make dreams a reality.

    #6043
    Profile photo of Thorizan
    Thorizan
    Participant

    You approach seems more than sensible. That means one obvious thing… it’s doomed to never come to pass. :)

    Seriously, though, this looks like great stuff. I plan on being one of the first eco-tourists to participate in this great activity.

    __________________________________________________
    There is no fate but what we make for ourselves. Each to his fate.

    #6044
    Profile photo of Pastor_Jason
    Pastor_Jason
    Participant

    I’m glad to see the excitement around the possibility of Seastead Outpost: Belize. After some discussion with Patri, as well as some of my own advisors, I’ve decided to “go all in” on this venture. I want to move to Belize. The property I purchase will be my home for many years to come. My children (#3 is on the way… I hope it’s a boy this time!!) will grow up there.

    I’m setting up all of my accounts and assets so I can liquidate them all at once to fund this. I’m attempting to organize my business to run without my daily input for a period of 3 months (the time I’ll be building basic infrastructure on the new property). I’ve been pouring through legal info regarding running a business in Belize. I’m looking at a trip down there to check out a few properties before finally settling on one and purchasing it. I’m gathering information from people who have run intentional communities and communes to make sure I plan for the right costs and set up this organization correctly.

    I say all of that to say this: Starting up a business takes time. I know everyone is excited about seasteading and wants to “get started NOW”… believe me I do… I’m one of them. The bottom line is, I’m putting my net worth on the line here. Hundreds of Thousands of dollars. I’m NOT going to rush this and make an error that could cost us the whole venture. I hope to open up this effort soon to encourage everyone’s participation even more so than we already have.

    I know… it’s hard to be patient on Christmas Eve. I want to tear into this more than anyone. While I get some ducks in a row, let me encourage you all to PARTICIPATE. I didn’t put up a wiki page so that I could work on it by myself. So far, I’ve got the only DRP entry for a property and that was just an example. Seasteading is a dream we’ve all adopted from Patri and Wayne. Similarly, Seastead Outpost: Belize may be a dream of mine some of you adopt… I want to know what your dream of Seastead Outpost: Belize is… we’ll refine this vision together and perhaps I’ll adopt some from your inputs.

    Seastead Outpost: Belize will happen. Since I’m putting everything I’ve got into this I can guarrantee success in this venture, I won’t let it fail. How soon it happens, how successful it immediately is, how quickly all of this gets done… some of that is in your hands. Pitch in and do some leg-work on the easy stuff like this. I promise, the work of setting up basic infrastructure on the property, producing our own food, maintaining a clean water supply, and building a workable seastead will be much harder than this stuff. If you “plan on” being a part of things down the road, prove it… start working on this project now.

    Live Well!

    -Jason

    #6045
    Profile photo of Lasse-Birk-Olesen
    Lasse-Birk-Olesen
    Participant

    Lasse wrote:

    Patri wrote:

    How is it international waters if it is 2km from an existing country? 12nm is 22 kilometers of territorial seas.

    I believe it’s a special treaty signed to allow ships to pass from the Atlantic into the Baltic sea without having to enter territorial waters. Admittedly I just read about it on a personal homepage, but I’ve sent an e-mail to the Danish sea authorities to hear if they can confirm it. Will post here when I get a reply.[/quote]

    I received a reply from the authorities and I was mistaken. The strait is governed according to the UN Law of the Seas Part 3 which means ships or platforms staying in the same place is under state jurisdiction.

    Pastor_Jason, from what you say it definitely sounds like Belize is a good place to do this. But I don’t understand your reply to the wave issue which you posted on the blog. You wrote:

    I think anyone talking about “wave issues” doesn’t understand the idea of a seastead outpost. We’re NOT in the ocean, it’s on land. Once a seastead is made it can float to where-ever.

    For the record, Belize doesn’t have much waves. The country is loaded with lagoons and sports a fantasticly huge coral reef and series of atolls that serve as breakwaters. We’ve got plenty of space to float in “sheltered waters” down there.

    I replied:

    Jason, these lagoons and atolls you mention, do they contain any international waters? The reason I suggested the Mediterranean and the Baltic Sea is that they are both big enough to have international waters in them.

    Yes, a seastead, once it is built, can sail to whereever. But during this journey it has to be able to endure the waves. And if you’re going to move it to a sea on the other side of the world, why not just build it there in the first place?

    You say that the ultimate goal of this project is to build an oceanworthy seastead and send it to international waters. I’m just saying that getting this final step done will be easier in the Baltic or the Mediterranean rather than the Carribean, because the waves are significantly smaller. There may be other more important reasons to pick Belize anyway, but I don’t think you’ve adressed this point yet.

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