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Seasteading Outpost Belize – a practical approach how to find a suitable beach property in the caribbean

Home Forums Community Active Seasteading Projects Seasteading Outpost Belize – a practical approach how to find a suitable beach property in the caribbean

This topic contains 92 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of ellmer - http://yook3.com ellmer – http://yook3.com 4 months, 1 week ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 76 through 90 (of 93 total)
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  • #16280
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    You are right that I didn’t make an official request for that, it was just a suggestion, somewhere in the SOBIZ thread. Here it was:

    {How about naming the new forum

    “Seasteading projects” or “Actual seasteading projects” or “Ongoing (current?) seasteading projects”

    Ya sure, a Projects Forum, could be good.

    I guess it is sufficiently distinct from research.

    could have Active, Resting, and Completed.

    We with You are a Network, our goal to become technologically-enabled reproducible family communities. http://weyounet.info

    #16285

    smit please check the real world hurricane pass routes since 1850 here (heavy rainfall caused by hurricane is not hurricane impact) – if you want a conflicting versus colombia thread please open it – this space is dedicated to “practical approach in the caribbean” – not to a A versus B personal spot preference discussion – if you want such a discussion – you are free to open it in a seperate thread.

    In this thread i want to discuss the methodology of spot selection and put it together in a smart and compact way – no sidetracking – so that people who look for a practical approach to a seastead startup in the caribbean, can read it, and understand what to look after. Basing any spot decision on positve or negative guts feelings or on the base “the best spot is where I live” is probably not a good way to scout things out properly.

    As the thread develops so far we seem to agree that major factors to look after is hurricane free spots, interference free spots, wave protected spots, and spots that allow to develop a proper economic activity.

    We have also agreed that the funding gives the frame what you can or can not do, and the discussion has turned up that for all practical means if we are talking about realistic seasteading start ups until now we are always talking about – the most small scale that we can get – as the most realistic base condition we should plan for is funding shortfall to a point that 5k/month seems to be a “unreachable star” in funding matters.

    So let me get back to page5 (before the sidetrack caused by doty’s note “Ok rincon looks feasible let’s do it there”) and talk about the economics for a 5k budget frame setup in a caribbean environment in a non-luxury tourism ambient and a non – industrial hotspot environment…

    Let’s take the “ok we do it there” as a “theorical approach” to help to hammer out details to look after, instead a decision for or against a specific point – finally we are just chating about practical approaches here and not deciding anything…we are not in condition to decide on spots anyhow – the versus spot discussion comes way down the road…this is just a methodology discussion how to come to a better and smarter versus discussion…

    For those who are still interested in deeper insight in the local setup of activities in Rincon i created a space to have this discussion here

    Wil

    #16287

    admiral wrote:

    I am assuming a minimum funding level of 5K per month….it should be possible to custom build very nice floating bungalows and ocean window units. … materials and supplies….more cost effective to build the entire unit out of concrete …..catamaran float …..shipping containers on cement floats….. do you have a source for cost figures for labor, materials… thoughts on the better way to go on the initial design… cost comparison…

    doty – that was a content rich post – could make a forum about every single point – so let me start with the global view and then go into details…the reason why i came up with Rincon (as option not as obligated point) was that i see chances to start a float out project that can benefit from industrial, touristic, aquaculture, without narrow it necessaryly down from the very beginning to just one option.

    As i said if we build just a floating concrete platform – industry in mammonal (shipyard zone ) will love it for use as tool platform for afloat ship repair – and place a couple of orders, the hotelery segment will inmediatly imagine a bar kiosc with palm roof on it and want one for the decamaron island project. A floating mero guasa breeding project will see it as platform to expand aquaculture out of the fenced shallow zones. Marina developers will want it for floating marina boxes.

    So if we establish ourselfs as the “floating platform guys” we have business to do with a lot of different sectors all present in a 2 hour tow radius of the building site.

    The point is if we build something the very start up piece should make a compelling case for seasteading and a show piece how to do it and what we are talking about and why this is business relevant.

    A “goofy bottle island” or a “old houseboat accumulation” fail to create this effect – and we need this effect to step up and get support for later project phases.

    So i would start for strategic reasons with something universal useable like this:

    . . .

    you can build your own beachhouse on it that blends into the zone – could look like this when done.

    .

    You would basicly figure out how to build floating platforms modular, easy, economic, and start to use it for yourself – and sell them off as business in the zone to sustain yourself.

    I can organize concrete building in that zone at a global cost of USD 166/ton of displacement – tested that in pilot projects.

    . .

    Catamaran, plate, modular honeycomb – all fits into that global picture – concrete building per ton of floating structure – shape is secondary matter – what is important is having something afloat that lasts 200 years of service life – so has real estate quality and show feasibility quality.

    With a 5k/month funding level we can build 30 tons floating structure per month in a 2 worker setup. This means you can build something that makes people talk and invest in your project within a couple of months.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #16290
    Avatar of Smit457
    Smit457
    Participant

    Hey, colombia still is a BAD option for seasteading. Come on, it’s not a free country. Freedome is less than in US. Labour productivity is low. Siesta all the time. Crazy nationalism. I bet the navy will crack down hard on any seasteading attempts. Belize is a much better option, a peaceful spot without FARC-rebels and drug subs.

    Ellmer, your methodology is flawed – it just favors the place where you live yourself, colombia.

    Why a 5k/month budget? ElImer, I bet you just want sweet gringo dollars. Everyone tries to rip you off in colombia. Sell an apartment for 2x the real price. Fake emeralds. No business ethics.

    Hurricane free zones don’t exist in the caribbean sea. From time to time strong storms beats the caribbean coast of colombia, venezuela and panama.

    Drug sub, colombia. Nice guys wanting more colombian subs?

    #16291
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    PART 1.

    Let’s say we build a ferro floating platform (like in the first picture shown above, EDIT-not the sub,lol, the “next above”) in Columbia for $5000/mo and X amount of dollars. Where is this built? In Rincon?

    All I see there on the map is a small town with no name and one main dirt road and shanty looking buildings, surrounded by bush, nothing else. No marina, no docks, NO NADA. Is there electric? (excuse my ignorance, but I don’t see any power polls on Google Earth) With other words, I don’t see any infrastructure in that little village to support boatbuilding. In fact, I don’t see any infrastructure to support anything else but fishing, to be honest. Therefore, money have to be invested to buy/rent/build this infrastructure = extra expense. Unless I got it all wrong, and this platform is built somewhere else in Columbia and then towed and anchored to Rincon.

    But lets say you got that platform to Rincon. Now what? How is that bare hull making money IN RINCON, 60 nm S of Cartagena, in the middle of nowhere?

    I am not “bashing” Rincon, guys, just stating the facts and asking the questions that ANY potential investor would ask.

    And since I was on Google Earth, what’s wrong with the Baru area? I see a nice small uninhabited (?) island there, surrounded by crystal clear waters, 1 nm E of the SE tip of that Baru peninsula (?), about 12 nm SE of Cartagena. Or, in general, around that whole area, Corales del Rosrio National Park? To me, it looks much, much promising in terms of turning a profit than Rincon.

    PART 2.

    Let’s not be in a rush to dismiss houseboats as a source of revenue for any “close to shore” seasteading venture. I know very well how much it takes to turn a bare hull, or a ferro floating platform in a livable floating space, in terms of dollar amount. No matter where, Florida, Belize or Columbia. It will cost at least 3-4 times more (aywhere) to built from scratch rather than buying decent used houseboats and ship them there (shipping included). And if you can’t provide for living accomodation on those platform you got nothing. What else you gonna sell it for, “as is”?

    #16298

    part 1

    the relative remoteness is not a drawback i see it as a benefit as it gives you high score on the interference freedom scale. So without entering in a spot versus discussion i would insist in remote caribbean sites as first joice – i would also insist in avoid tourism hot spots, industrial hot spots, so my ideal zone would be quite remote but near ( 1- 2 hours in boat) to as well tourism hot zones and industrial hot zones to keep opportunities in both fields open.

    part 2

    In no way i would rule out houseboats – i just would say that a houseboat accumulation of of the shelf housboats – and nothing else – due to budget shortfall – is proving nothing so not really worth doing it. Houseboat is fine to live in while building something that attracts investors because it goes beyond houseboats.

    One of the most important factors to avoid interference is to blend into a zone – if you check the material i put here to give a realistic impression of the rincon zone – you will understand that of the shelf houseboats do not blend in very well. It would be smarter to have platforms put traditional palmroof huts on them and live just as natives and tourist live in the zone already. If you blend in the chances that you get interference are minimum. Nobody will make a case against you because you replace traditional landfill and stilts (which have a eco impact) with much smarter and environment friendly floating bases.

    A tipical settlement in the zone right now looks like that: – a concrete floating platform with a palm hut on it will just look NO DIFFERENT but avoid eco destroying landfills in coral areas.

    The people who built this are infringing atl least 3 laws – you can not build in a zone of 30 m of the waterline , you can not make any changes to the litoral (landfill) you can not cut a single mangrove bush.

    The fact that those buildings are still there shows how bendable things are in colombia. Many people just think that this is nice after all – so it gets tolerated. If the houses would be ugly and full of a hippie community they would have got problems.

    I could sell platforms to the (wealthy owners) of such existing settlements as it would allow to still live in the zone and have a de facto house there without building a fixed fundament in the beach zone, cut no mangrove bush, so still stay inside the existing law.

    What you seek is the right mix of business opportuity, bendability, interference freedom, and tolerance culture, so that your project can prosper – a good advise is blend in do as the romans do – avoid to create a “strange appearance that triggers counter reactions”.

    Be part of a desireable development instead of being part of a style breach.

    #16302
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Wil’s post above explains why I don’t see much of a need to continue looking for a location. I don’t see any anything else comparable in the Carribean without going to a tourism hot zone, a very remote area from significant commerical activiy, or the US coast.

    Until Ron Paul and like people are elected to power in the US, or there is a crash and free market reboot of the economy and governent, I do not consider it to be a viable location for investment – it will continue to decline and in the process become increasingly more authoritarian with one desparate measure after another to prop up the failed Keysian model and its elitist proponents of a centrally planned economiy.

    Panama has Boca del Tora, very nice along the Carribean Coast, but last I heard in the late 90′s, it had already been bought up and prices inflated by real estate developers. Maybe the bubble has burst there by now and it is available again at low cost like Belize.

    Belize is quite viable and with 40% unemployment, may be very flexible in accomodating new development, but does not have the kind of broad based economy to provide a local market for business that Cartagena has.

    Costa Rica has Limon Real on the Carribean side, which did have a libertarian development project for a free trade zone at one time. The fact that the libertarian party in Costa Rica, Moviamento Libertaridad, gained a sizable portion of parliament in elections show there is a lot of intelligent life there. The islands also lack a broad based local economy.

    The other choice I see to Rincon is that town to the south of Rincon on the Bay on the other side of the penisula, Google Maps does not give a name for it, it is in the aerial images linked to in my previous post. Rincon is closer by sea route, but the other town has protected bay anchorage off shore.

    Wil and I are very much on the same page regarding building to blend in and complement the existing architecture. This also reduces costs by building in a manner which local tradesmen are familiar with and local materials are available for. The picture above represents a design which would be very attractive on a tourism site. It looks like bungalows on floats it is. The floats can have submerged rooms with underwater views as well.

    At this point we need to settle on a multi purpose float design and cost it out. Wil, can you give me a figures for $/cubic meter of finished ferrocement, exterior wall thickness, interior (cell) wall thickness, floor thickness, ceiling (deck) thickness, cell size. It would be best to put together a parametric spread sheet, i.e. float depth, cell size as variables, exterior wall thickness, interior wall thickness, floor thickness, ceiling thickness as calculated values. With this, I can lay out designs in a parametric CAD modeler (I’m a mechanical engineer with 25 years CAD design experience). Also, we should separate out the fixed costs, i.e. administrative salaries, equipment, rentals, from the variable costs, i.e. concrete, steel, water, labor, other materials, and delivery costs to customer or local anchorage. We also need to determine the sale prices to the local markets you described for the floats. A fixed price per ton of displacement or floatation isn’t really detailed enough seeing as for a roughly cubic or cylinderical configuration, cost should increase by the square while enclosed volume increases by the cube, so cost per cubic meter of volume or ton of displacement should decrease linearly with an increase in size.

    We probably need new threads for cement float design and cost., economic needs for Rincon (what can we provide them that they need), marketing to Cartagena and the tourism zones, issues to be identified and addressed.

    #16303
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    At first glance, it looked like there was plenty of cheap land in the area, but on closer examination, Jason may have a good point. Rincon appears to be very densely built, like it is actually hemmed in by the mangrove swamps and other factors, so building floating real estate could have a lot of value even to the local community.

    #16304
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    It seems to me that we are no longer talking about an outpost venture, but a ferrocement floats construction business.

    You are going to build ferro floats and sell them, either as they are, bare, as floating foundation for the locals to build houses on them, or to local marine or hospitality businesses for their various water related activities, or custom finished according to the client specs, whatever they want, you will build on them. Pls correct me if I’m wrong.

    Which is ok by me if this is what you guys decided to do. But I imagined the whole seasteading outpost venture a bit differently than what you guys seem to have in mind.

    #16305

    admiral wrote:

    …. don’t see much of a need to continue looking for a location. … broad based economy to provide a local market for business that Cartagena has….

    …town to the south of Rincon … anchorage off shore….bungalows on floats…

    … multi purpose float design … figures for $/cubic meter of finished ferrocement, exterior wall thickness, interior (cell) wall thickness, floor thickness, ceiling (deck) thickness, cell size…. float depth

    … CAD modeler (I’m a mechanical engineer with 25 years CAD design experience).

    Also, we should separate out the fixed costs, i.e. administrative salaries, equipment, rentals, from the variable costs, i.e. concrete, steel, water, labor, other materials, and delivery costs to customer or local anchorage.

    We also need to determine the sale prices….

    ….fixed price per ton of displacement or floatation isn’t really detailed enough seeing as for a roughly cubic or cylinderical configuration, cost should increase by the square while enclosed volume increases by the cube, so cost per cubic meter of volume or ton of displacement should decrease linearly with an increase in size.

    We probably need new threads for cement float design and cost., economic needs for Rincon (what can we provide them that they need), marketing to Cartagena and the tourism zones, issues to be identified and addressed.

    We probably need a thread split here. This is the practical aproach how to find a location thread – so if we start to discuss how to proceed on the location we have found the thread would be sidetracked. Some might be ok with the statement “search no further” others will opose. Some will like the idea to discuss seasteading rincon as a theorical exercise to get a feeling for reality of a seasteading start up – some might want to get hands on to make it happen.

    Many here may not be aware how broad based and dynamic the economy in Cartagena really is – there are up to 4 mayor cruiseships in the port at any time, Donald Trump is building Ocean Towers in Bocagrande real estate, just beside Nao center which is Asian investors and recent seismic studies have turned up oil compareable to Venezuela so international oil biz is all over the place. -

    The town south of rincon is berugas at: 9.697382,-75.614312 the wave conditions are as good as the same as in rincon altough it might look better protected on the map – the whole zone is protected against big waves you can see that from the fact how buildings are put just along the shore without wavebreakers here tolu and covenas are small coastal towns that can provide supply tolu is rural covenas is a oil terminal.

    If you check santa cruz del islote and compare it to the not populated mangrove island in the background – you will understand that “land” does not really exist in the zone – what is not beach is mangroves, and what is not mangroves is lagoon – so technically you can not build anywhere (legally and without eco damage) EXCEPT in floating platforms – rincon is nestled as long row of houses on the beach because it is the only “land” that is there between the bay and the mangrove swamp behind.

    Islote is nesteled on a few coral rocks – both are “illegal settlements” based on fishing outposts turned villages put to legality due to the de facto situation -

    … but i am getting increasingly off theme – in fact the details about the rincon area are only interesting for people who want to risk a start up there. I will split the rincon thread apart (here and here) and leave this space for the general search parameters for a suitable spot in the caribbean as the thread theme suggests…

    #16494

    The thread is splited and we can have the rincon discussion in a adequate space – so i suggest that we forget this spot for now (as it leads inevitably in a pro-contra discussion that goes nowhere) and return to the “how pick a location” thread theme.

    We have worked out as leading Parameters :

    ——————————————–

    Hurricane free

    Low interference

    Economic possibilities

    ——————————————

    Somebody mentioned Language and Near US as key Criteria … how key are they and how international should we be?

    #16498
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    If we are talking about an eco-tourism bosiness, I think being close to US would be an advantage.

    #16499
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Mosquito Free

    Mariachi

    Infrastructure Support

    Building Materials

    Broadband Internet

    Proximity to Emergency Medical Care

    Low Cost Labor

    Local Markets

    #16502
    Avatar of Chucker
    Chucker
    Participant

    An airport within few hours
    either by land or sea or both

    Also a source of food. Beside meat. Unless all meals are fish.

    #16503
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Mariachi is the number 2 on you list? That’s funny :)

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