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Seasteading Outpost Belize – a practical approach how to find a suitable beach property in the caribbean

Home Forums Community Active Seasteading Projects Seasteading Outpost Belize – a practical approach how to find a suitable beach property in the caribbean

This topic contains 92 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of ellmer - http://yook3.com ellmer – http://yook3.com 5 months, 1 week ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 93 total)
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  • #1669

    This thread is a follow up thread of the Seasteading Outpost Belize Thread. Several locations for an Outpost has been suggested. The downside is that those locations have been defined per “internet search”. One of the general rules we should keep in mind is that if a property is in internet already – it is already in hands of a realtor – means not really a good option.

    So what we would need first is local scouting – means persons that really live in the area, have capacity to compare, have a boat to get around, can negociate with locals without paying a gringo fee on land purchase.

    This thread is dedicated to a practical approach for buying land in the caribbean region for seasteading purpose.

    Local know how, Climate factors, legal situation, scouting, expat info, anchor persons, how to do it, where to do it, …

    Wil

    #15935

    Hurricane Zones

    No building on the Beach

    Jejenes

    Water Supply (rain – tank ship)

    Material Supply

    Local Third Party interference Factors

    Local Business Opportunities and Alliances

    #15937

    conclusion – there is only a very small hurricane free zone in the caribbean – colombia / panama – so you either build there or you MUST have the building site prepared for hurricanes… this imposes all kind of project parameters…natural or artificial breakwater shielding, fast mobility of the building site – bunker/shelter quality – etc…

    #15942
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    conclusion – there is only a very small hurricane free zone in the caribbean – colombia / panama – so you either build there or you MUST have the building site prepared for hurricanes… this imposes all kind of project parameters…natural or artificial breakwater shielding, fast mobility of the building site – bunker/shelter quality – etc…

    So what we would need first is local scouting – means persons that really live in the area, have capacity to compare, have a boat to get around, can negociate with locals without paying a gringo fee on land purchase.

    So you live in Columbia, and are a local there, you said you even already have a beachside property some place. Would it be possible to use that location? You said there were fishermen there, so seems like there is fish farming potential also.

    We with You are a Network, our goal to become technologically-enabled reproducible family communities. http://weyounet.info

    #15943

    Hello Shred, yes i live in Colombia since 16 years, and i have built a wooden house with classical palm roof 18x9m foundation – 2 floors on stilts over concrete blocks at a in that time (1998) not developed beach in a mangrove/beach area in the San Bernardo Archipelago near Cartagena as there was only sand and water there i called it “ARENAQUA”.

    It started literally one day with comming in with a boat with a truckload of wood, a few sacks of cement, basic tools, hire local workforce…so many of the experiences are directly applyable to a seasteading outpost as suggested in the Seasteading Outpost Belize Thread.

    What concerns aquaculture and fishing potential in the caribbean i would like to have a closer look at Rafael Viera who built a spot where he runs a breeding program for Mero Guasa – but i suggest to split this theme into a “Aquaculture potential in the Caribbean” Thread.

    What concerns your question if we could use the area of Arenaqua for an outpost this question unfortunatly has no simple yes or no as an answer – it depends on the project parameters.

    #15944
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    Hello Shred, yes i live in Colombia since 16 years,

    perhaps you meant to say for 16 years. unless you made that austrian submarine when you were 14 lol. :-)

    and i have built a wooden house with classical palm roof 18x9m foundation – 2 floors on stilts over concrete blocks at a in that time (1998) not developed beach in a mangrove/beach area in the San Bernardo Archipelago near Cartagena as there was only sand and water there i called it “ARENAQUA”.

    Wow! that’s huge! based on the 20m^3 per person, that would fit 32 people.

    (18 * meter * (9 * meter) * (4 * meter)) / (20 * (meter^3)) = 32.4

    So it seems like that should be enough to house a community.

    It started literally one day with comming in with a boat with a truckload of wood, a few sacks of cement, basic tools, hire local workforce…so many of the experiences are directly applyable to a seasteading outpost as suggested in the Seasteading Outpost Belize Thread.

    What concerns aquaculture and fishing potential in the caribbean i would like to have a closer look at Rafael Viera who built a spot where he runs a breeding program for Mero Guasa – but i suggest to split this theme into a “Aquaculture potential in the Caribbean” Thread.

    What concerns your question if we could use the area of Arenaqua for an outpost this question unfortunatly has no simple yes or no as an answer – it depends on the project parameters.

    hmmm, so which project paramaters would give us a “simple” yes?

    My partner has been very enthusiastic about learning spanish recently.

    Though we’d only be able to move in a few years time, after getting boat,

    she’s good with children, I can help with construction, computers or aquaculture.

    We with You are a Network, our goal to become technologically-enabled reproducible family communities. http://weyounet.info

    #15955

    Arenaqua is at the following coordinates (google map) 9.73971,-75.668335

    One of the drawbacks is that i do not own the place anymore, and since the situation has calmed down a lot in colombia those beaches have been in a rapid tourism development. Additional beach houses have grown around.

    Also the house is just 2 wooden platforms and a palm roof, with no walls at all. You can hang hamacs and sleep in the caribbean breeze but there is no infrastructure to support 30 people.

    Nevertheless i know the zone very well and consider it a possible zone for building a platform. You can get workers from Rincon which is about 5 km up the beach – so they can show up on the building site in the morning without you caring for trasport.

    You can get basic but limited supply in Rincon – you also have access to shipyards and heavy industry which is located 2 hours up the coast in boat in the bay of cartagena.

    The zone is on the “border of jurisdiction” for the harbor captain in cartagena, and for the harbor captain in covenas.

    Hotel Decameron has a Island hotel on the island just in front. The whole zone is hurrican free, wave protected due to the san bernardo and rosario islands.

    Locals are friendly.

    Wil

    #15961

    If we decide on parameter hurricane we have basicly 3 options.

    1) build a steastead outside the hurricane zones this would limit the possible sites to the Colombian coast between La Guajira and Panama.

    2) build inside the hurricane zone – this would require hurricane proofe structures ( submerged would be great)

    3) build a fast moving shipstead that can move out of the hurricane path which would be expensive. (lot of engine required)

    Extremly touristic zones are bad due to high level of de facto regulation. Extreme remote zones are bad due to difficulty in galley and material supply. Access by land is a can have, access by boat is a must have. Building at the beach is forbidden everywhere in the caribbean – land 50 m behind the waterline is useless as a 50 m move for a fully grown seastead over land is impossible. This leaves a floating building site more or less as only realistic option. Floating also resolves the jejenes problem and a big part of the third party interference problem.

    So the site must give some wave protection, friendly locals, good business alliances, not necessary a formal land title. A long term waterspace rent agreement with somebody who has a property that has absolutly no interrest in the waterspace would be great. What comes to mind is renting the waterspace in front of a extended cattle ranch. A remote ranch will be happy to leave the waterspace in front of the property to a seastead just for getting the benefit to have a fast boat in reach that can perform a medical evac of the ranch workers in case of an accident. Ranches think in ton of cattle and hectar of grassland, beach and waterspace are of cero value for them.

    What is in favor in Colombia is that the land that connects to the caribbean is bad land (arid, salt marsh, desert, red soil) so the ranches ouside the coastal urban centers (Santa Marta, Cartagena) are enourmous to hold a few head of cattle and are little productive. So a agreed long term anchor right in front of a ranch that includes some 15 kilometer beach (average) can be purchased for very little money.

    .

    Typical cost imagine colombia – arid, bad land.

    You can have the whole ranch 73 ha for 1000.0000.000 COP (500.000 USD) – the floating right in front of the property miles of ocean front will go for much much less over the counter. (probably much less then the cost of a small car)

    #15973
    Avatar of Chucker
    Chucker
    Participant

    #15978

    Yes goats are a good option (good market higher priced than cattle) also buffalo and rude indo – brasil cattle races brahman, cebu, – but would we not be better off just to “long term rent” the “floating rights” and leave the “ranch business” to someone else.

    In practice what you have in colombia is a big ranch, handled by 4 cowboys who herd about 3000 head of cattle living in a small hut somewhere on the terrain with a dusty access road . The owner lives in Bogota, Medellin, or Cartagena and visits the ranch at best 2 times a year for a day or two to supervise the round up and transport of major cattle transports.

    So what you have on “conflict potential with the land owner” is more or less that you see a lonley cowboy in transit counting the head of cattle about twice a week from the beach – he will be glad to be invited for a cool beer to the seastead anchored just 100m offshore and sending over a boat. It will be the only human contact he gets (beside the 3 colleages in the farm house) in a month. You may not see the landowner even once in 10 years (he is busy counting his cattle when he shows up – no time for visits) – at most you might have radio contact between the seastead and the farm house in case of medical emergency.

    Everybody will be happy having a seastead there because it offers additional eyes to safeguard the cattle and avoid that somebody comes at night with a barge rounds up a couple of dozend heads and takes them away by maritime access. Cattle thiefs are a great concern for colombian ranchers.

    A ranch and a seastead are ideal complementary partners – the cattle land is worthless for the seastead and the beach and waterfront is worthless for the ranch owner.

    This is a very different situation about beachfront property than it exists in touristic centers or industrial zones where every meter of beachfront is a high price, high competition real estate asset. The beachfront situation changes radical about one hour in car (or boat) outside the major population centers.

    Instead of going for outside EEZ we should go for outside real estat agent interest – and target a “caribbean ranchfront seastead” as the most viable set up. This does not work in areas where there are no big ranches – like small islands littered with tourists – lets say – most caribbean island nations. It only works in big countries like Colombia where the population is VERY sparse and only concentrated in a few cities and most of the terrain is just empty and used for low concentration cattle ranches.

    So the first thing you will look for, when scouting for a caribbean seastead location is a “ranch ambient” free of realtor interest. This is where you can build a HUGE seastead just on the beachfront with cero third party interference to expect.

    Wil

    Cartagena Colombia

    #15981

    So one of the first tasks when searching for a suitable outpost site would be to identify correctly ranch/beach situations on the map country by country all over the caribbean and diferentiate them from tourisms zones, real estate development zones, shipyard development zones, urban development zones and natural reseves which are all much less suitable for a beachfront waterspace seasteading venture.

    Done this correctly you may start to send scouts in the most promising countries and zones to create lists of land owners contact numbers to approach.

    Make sure that the scout is in company of a local – prefered a “primo” of the mayor of the nearest coastal settlement. – his family is “de facto handling” the zone – not the “authorities”.

    Then work the contacts digg up “special opportunities” like the ranch that has a lot of grass but little cattle (owner is not liquid to buy cattle), or the old ranchman with the wife who prefers to live in the city and the children living and working in spain.

    I don’t know Belize sufficiently to know where the ranch/beachfront zones are ubicated. Anybody here who has a deeper insight on Belize and can mark up the “promising zones”.

    Foto Belize

    #15984
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    i think Will has a good vision for how to get it done.

    Wil, do u think it would be smart to combine your cattle ranch location with my suggestion to locate near an industrial zone? if we located in a residential area theres too many objections from ‘normal’ settlers. if we’re off in the middle of nowhere its harder to get goods and services for trade. but, if somewhere near an industrial area we can find labor, including skilled labor, machines, and lots of other resources to help us be productive.

    ____________

    My Work II

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #15986

    This thread is a sub-thread of the Seasteading Outpost Belize thread, so i assume that we have to picture the project we are talking about as something like a floating community with a similar appearence as ephemereisle or a asian floating market.

    This brings up friction potential in industrial zones because it will be definitly “out of usual” for the zone. On the other hand a single family seastead working as drydock, or as ship repair barge, or as chandlery barge could be excellent suited for the industrial zone. You also might target both fields a bit by locating in an area where a industrial zone fades out into a ranch zone. So the seastead might have mobile units (catamaran barges) that head for the industrial zone in the morning for business while living and community aspects are placed outside the industrial zones.

    A major draw back to the near industrial zone community concept is, that in practice the zone just outside the industrial zone is normally a “poor people wild settlement” zone with high crime rate – so not necessary a spot to put a “gringo community” that will convert into a target.

    A solution would be to put the seastead not just off the beach as you would do in ranch ambient but move it out to open water a kilometer or so for protection purpose in this case the basic thought of SOBLZ – start on land and float out gradually will not work very well.

    Wil

    #15989
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    I like the ranch idea a lot since it works well for both aquaculture and a rustic floating eco-tourism experience with private beach. An industrial area also would be more polluted for aquaculture and less desirable for tourism. I envision a lot of the initial habitation will be rentals and timeshares with an initially small permanent community which steadily grows as people decided to stay after visiting, some retire to stay permanently after visiting or time sharing over the years, and others manage to move their livelihood to a location independent source, online or investment based.

    #16045

    I have mentioned on other threads that in general if you do a float out project in the size of 20m diameter “third party interference” is a dominating project factor as well in project risk as in project cost.

    It is therefore important that you make a preliminary analysis of what kind of potential third party interference factors and players do exist in a project location. I would recommend a biotop where the population density of potential interferers is low instead of a biotop where interferer occurance is high.

    In a ranch zone the population of potential interferers is very low – the ranch owner and the maritime authority can interfer in therory but it is obvious that non of them has neither an interest nor a reason nor a practical means to interfer much.

    In a industrial zone you are under the eyes of a lot of people that can (and very likley will) interfer . You have additional players like industrial neighbours that want to bring down your business, shipping lane interests, settlement plans, port authority, human rights, ambientalist groups, liquor authority, customes, mayor, etc… – the simple fact that you develop a activity in a “competed space” with many interests puts you in the center of all kind of fights, friction, and interference processes you have to take care of.

    If we talk a scale of 1 to 10 in “interference freedom zones” being New York City Harbor with all its regulations a 1 and floating outside the economic exclusion zone of any state offshore on open ocean a 10.

    On this scale a colombian ranchfront seastead would enjoy a high 9.5 of freedom to do whatever you want. while a colombian industrial zone seastead would enjoy a 7 – if situated in the middle of the bay of cartagena (1kilometer off shore) but only a 3 if situated near the shore of the same bay in the competed zone of manga.

    At the end how much interference potential you have to deal with depends on your business plan.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

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