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SEASTEAD CURRENCY

Home Forums Community IRL GTGs SEASTEAD CURRENCY

This topic contains 35 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of tusavision tusavision 2 years, 5 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 36 total)
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  • #6929
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    What would it be? Its easy to say, oh,… “I dont like it,….or I dont think so”. At least, I had the courage of my own opinion with the risk of beeing ridiculed….Everybody has a good ideea of what they dislike, its universal and no news there guys. Give me some fresh news, tell me what YOU like, lets open a real dialog here and make some progress,…The goal of seasteads is freedom and more freedom.

    Is it to much to ask, a visa and use of national currency, while entering the teritory of a sovereign nation? Does anyone here open the door to their home to any stranger and says come in? Or is it expected to just walk on a seastead with no cash, no form of identification, no questions asked? Is “micro-managing” your borders and finacial system a sign of “less” freedom, or a wise decision for protecting the freedom, sovereignity and national interest of a seastead? Will a future Madoff be welcomed on a future seastead (since we dont care who comes and goes) in total disregard of international law and risk beeing labeled as a criminals safe haven by the international community (or worst)?

    If we dont use the”foreign banks” then what, IOU’s? Is there a “domesticated bank” anywhere? Arent they all international corporations? What kind of financial tools will be used by a seastead for tradeing with the outside world, if not money? Oh…, sry, I forgot, we will be 100% self sufficient from the start. Look, we can even make a generic Tylenol! Not that we need it, since we wont have any headaches, but just in case,…

    #6932
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    So seasteads should create their own currencies, in spite of the fact that there already exists hundreds or thousands of ready to use types of coins

    So seasteads should create their own government, in spite of the face that there already exists hundreds of governments ready to use? ;)

    All snideness aside, the point of using our own currency is to further distance ourselves from existing nations. Sure, you could just use the yen, or the euro, or the peso. But when the nation that the currency is based in makes any policy changes…such as choosing to float it’s currency or deciding to peg it’s currency to another nation…you are stuck with their rules. Better to make your own rules.

    Besides, using gold isn’t really like creating a brand new form of currency.

    #6935
    Avatar of thief
    thief
    Participant

    Smith, using someone elses currency does hold alot of troubles, but WAY fewer than creating our own. Also we’ve been over why gold is a completely unrealistic idea.

    Personally, there’s no way I’d convert my cash to gold. I’d rather be broke, with a pile of cash useable on land.

    - Nick

    #6937
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    gold is a completely unrealistic idea

    Huh? I can find several hundred Austrian economists and members of the Mises Institute that would disagree. Why is gold unrealistic?

    I really don’t see how electronic commerce, backed 100% by gold (no fractional reserves), has any complications besides needing to store and protect that gold. Granted that is a big issue, but I would hardly call it “unrealistic”.

    #6938
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    If you would have bought some gold in 2000 you’d have triple your money,… http://goldprice.org/live-gold-price.html.

    #6940
    Avatar of Carl-Pålsson
    Carl-Pålsson
    Participant

    Crappy fiat currencies like the US dollar is perfectly usable. Sure, there is a lot of continous inflation, and there is no guarantee that there won’t be hyperinflation a la Zimbabwe, but that is only a real problem if you sit on huge dollar (or whatever currency) reserves. For daily use you’ll only ever need so much currency. Nobody sane has their entire fortune invested in fiat currencies in a bank account or in cash in a safe. You invest in tangible things like stocks, funds, or commodities, or your business or your seastead perhaps. In other words stuff that have a value even if the dollar becomes worthless.

    And using gold (actual gold coins in a purse) is not such an outlandish proposition. It is no different from using bills in a wallet. Gold coins already exist. Krugerrands etc.

    Just because we want do distance ourselves from ye olde governments does not mean we have to distance ourselves from everything that exists in those countries (like telephones, or antibiotics, or their money). Eelco hit the nail on the head. Don’t reinvent the wheel.

    Why no visas and border control? Because it is really annoying to the majority of people who are peaceful and honest. And it doesn’t do any real good. If Bin Laden tries to hide on your seastead chances are someone is going to notice anyway without you spending a bunch of millions on rummaging through decent people’s luggage.

    And stopping someone from entering a country is not the same as stopping them from entering your house. You own your house, so you should be able to decide exactly who enters it (or not). If you try to stop someone entering a country (or a seastead) however you are in effect trying to stop someone entering someone elses house (because countries and seasteads are made up of many homes, and this is none of your business unless you have reasonable suspicions of criminal activity first. Entering a country or seastead is not in itself suspicious activity.

    As always, if you guys want to build protectionistic and xenophobic seasteads, then by all means do so. I’m just saying that I think it is a bad idea.

    #6941
    Avatar of Carl-Pålsson
    Carl-Pålsson
    Participant

    Contracts should not be redeemable in anything other than what has been agreed upon.

    Contracts should be honored, in other words? Seems rather obvious, yes? If the contract says that I should pay you X, of course Y isn’t going to cut it.

    If you do all your transactions through foreign banks, their governments will probably skimming your transactions left, right and center.

    Monitoring or surveilling the transactions you mean? Most likely. Of course you’ll need to take into account the chances of getting audited, taxed or wahetever. But essentially if you both live and work outside country X they should have trouble claiming that you should pay taxes. I’m sure they’ll try though.

    #6943
    Avatar of admiral-doty
    admiral-doty
    Participant

    Gold backed digital currencies denominated by weight are the obvious choice and are already implemented (see pecunix, loom.cc). Digital currencies are essentially warehouse exchanges which maintain an account denominated in grams in the name or number of the account holder. Account holders can make payments to each other in gold and exchange physical gold in and out of the account. Independent exchangers facilitate conversion to and from fiat national currencies which are issued by central banks and backed by irredeemable promises to pay back debt owed by the governments which charter the central banks to issue them. A new idea dating back centuries to Venetian merchants and used up through the early 20th century is the use of Bills of Exchange payable in gold with a 90 day maturity date. Originally the Federal Reserve’s charter only allowed it to hold gold or Bills of Exchange to back the Federal Reserve Notes issued. Bank notes issued prior to the Federal Reserve were backed in this matter and issued by commercial banks. Bills of Exchange allowed the money supply to expand and contract with the economy while maintaining liquidity to gold. Real Bills were bought at a discount prior to maturity rather than paying interest.

    Warehouse Exchange: 100% gold backing, users pay storage and transaction fees, no interest earned on accounts.

    Commercial Bank: 100% backing by mixture of gold and Bills of Exchange, no mortgages or loans, no charge to users for transactions or storage, no interest earned on accounts

    Investment Bank or Trust Company: Fractional reserve lending with some percentage held as gold and the rest of the accounts backed by some combination of loans, securities, and Bill of Exchange. May or may not charge fees to account holders, accounts pay interest.

    I came up with a concept for another project which wanted to issue a gold backed currency using gold foil embossed with a holographic image of the project on one side and the denomination on the other laminated in plastic, using different thicknesses of gold foil for different denominations. For seasteading currency, I would emboss a graphic of the project on the front and the denomination in grams on the back.

    #6944
    Avatar of thief
    thief
    Participant

    Gold backed digital sounds good to me. I thought you were talking about gold coinage.

    - Nick

    #6948
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    “I came up with a concept for another project which wanted to issue a gold backed currency using gold foil embossed with a holographic image of the project on one side and the denomination on the other laminated in plastic, using different thicknesses of gold foil for different denominations. For seasteading currency, I would emboss a graphic of the project on the front and the denomination in grams on the back.”

    Then your currency value will fluctuate in accordance to the price of gold. It will be subjected (as a commodity) to supply, demand, speculations. As per todays market, gold closed at USD 912.13/oz. If you would decide to print your gold currency today, you will have to buy @ the market price, which is at an all time historical high, but in a downtrend. If the global economy starts to improve, then the price of gold will drop, since the investers will move their money from gold to stocks and bonds. Therefore, your currency will devaluate and you will be losing money since you’ve bougt the gold in USD to start with. Taking a look at 36 year gold chart bellow I wouldnt go long on gold right now. Actually, I’d short it 10 year gold price per ounce

    36 year gold price history in US Dollars per ounce.^Top

    #6952
    Avatar of horton
    horton
    Participant

    I would tend to short gold as well. There’s very little demand for gold now that markets for gold jewlery have dried up in places like the Gulf Arabs states, India, and Brazil. As a hedge against the dollar, it may be rational to purchase it. The dollar’s going nowhere but down.

    #6954
    Avatar of kbxx
    kbxx
    Participant

    I think a solid basis for any market-oriented seastead would be to allow for free exchange, without limitations on the means of exchange. If somone wants to trade in dollars, pounds, Euros, gold, silver, stock, bonds, cigarrettes, or whatever, it should be allowed. People will usually only accept a sound currency–if they have a choice. If people believe that the dollar is going to plummet but the pound is going up, they’ll stop accepting dollars, and take pounds instead.

    For the sake of convenience, I suspect people will take established fiat money primarily at first, as more sophisticated money systems develop, there should be a “cambrian explosion” in currency systems.

    I suspect a lot of people will barter in less integrated seasteads as well.

    I strongly recommend this fascinating dialogue I found. Its about the gold standard versus a system of competing private currencies. http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north687.html

    #6957
    Avatar of Eelco
    Eelco
    Participant

    Carl wrote:

    Contracts should not be redeemable in anything other than what has been agreed upon.

    Contracts should be honored, in other words? Seems rather obvious, yes? If the contract says that I should pay you X, of course Y isn’t going to cut it.

    If you mean ‘obvious’ as in ‘nowhere implemented’, then yes.

    As far as i know, any fiat system demands all obligations are redeemable in the fiat currency.

    State a contract in gold, someone dumps some paper at your doorstep, and he has upheld his end of the bargain, as far as the courts are concerned.

    It is hence defacto impossible to state a contract in anything other than fiat.

    If you do all your transactions through foreign banks, their governments will probably skimming your transactions left, right and center.

    Monitoring or surveilling the transactions you mean? Most likely. Of course you’ll need to take into account the chances of getting audited, taxed or wahetever. But essentially if you both live and work outside country X they should have trouble claiming that you should pay taxes. I’m sure they’ll try though.

    Theyll try, and it will be your word against theirs. With the slight imbalance they are holding on to your assets.

    #8979
    Avatar of Logan
    Logan
    Participant

    In my eyes the best way would be to allow anyone and his horse to create his own currency, backed by whatever he chooses, there will come wacky ideas there will come unoriginal ideas but there will also be ingeniouse ideas, and it will ensure that noone has a monopoly on making money (that said you ofcourse have monopoly on making your own currency) there will also be scams etc, but thats part of life, current money is also used for scammes and being counterfitted.

    Also everyone should then be allowed to accept whatever currency they choose (both seastead currency and currency from other nations)

    It is true that it can be a problem with internet deals and international transfering, but the simple solution is to only accept currencies you trust, take them to the money house at the end of the day put them in your account and badabing badabang your ready to rock.

    I apologize for any spelling errors, I’m not a native englishman, and im tired =)

    and very merry yule tidings to each and every one of you =)

    #9157
    Avatar of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    Using world average prices and world-wide currencies, then using current exchange rates is the logical choice. I don’t know anyone with enough real gold to back a Seastead. Let the world-powers handle the problems with couterfeiting and new designs.

    The vast majority of the money the U.S. has printed is NOT in the U.S. Pick an available, high value currency as the ‘norm,’ and establish exchange/conversion rates as it changes, globally. That keeps a lighter wad in the pocket, when you go shopping for those parts for the do-hickey/thing-a-ma-bob that gave-up the ghost.

    Many travellers load up on cash, when going to foreign places. Hard to pay for anything, any other way.

    Keep track of what those currencies actually look like and how to tell if it’s a forgery, but let the big nations handle the details on how to identify/prevent forgery.

    Later,

    J.L..F.

    If you can’t swim with the big fish, stick to the reef

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