1. Skip to navigation
  2. Skip to content
  3. Skip to sidebar




Seaseading within EEZ's?

Home Forums Research Law and Politics Seaseading within EEZ's?

This topic contains 31 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of elspru elspru 1 year, 2 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 32 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #21631
    Avatar of spark
    spark
    Participant

    Hi;

    What guarantee and security did the Pilgrims have at the time of landing?

    Those who want guarantee and security will probably not seastead.

    Some will probably just “obey and follow orders” for the rest of their lifes.

    That is their choice, and that is available.  Nothing wrong with it as long as

    they can take the consequences.

    Same thing with seasteading.  Seasteding comes with consequences too.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #21632
    Avatar of spark
    spark
    Participant

    A bit more if I may:

    The way I see; one of the consequences of seasteading is to enter into this gray area of laws;

    the laws of high seas, the laws of EEZs, the laws and rules of the International Seabed Authority,

    and the international laws.  And may be forge something new.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #21637
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    In principle, maybe so. In practice, there is very little enforcement out there because the whole matter now it also involves maritime law. And the maritime law takes precedent in international law. In reality, the captain of a vessel upholds the law, maritime or aboard ship. No captain in the right mind, of any vessel, man o’war or merchant will dare tell a 200′ seastead captain with lets say 60 crew abourd,…”You can’t fish 150 miles offshore”. OH,…hold on, let me run it by 60 hungry seasteaders who have the right to bear arms,…But if 15 miles offshore, lets say around the Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary boundry, have to be sensitive to the needs of the environment and a seastead should refrain from fishing, disharge of grey water, anchoring on coral heads, etc.

    But who would want to hang out inside the EEZ of any nation for long??? There are at least 10 banks and/or submerged reefs in international waters that a seastead can drop the hook on and hang out there, no problem whatsoever. If that is desired. Personally, I’d rather sail a bit around before “settling down” :)

    #21638
    Avatar of spark
    spark
    Participant

    Hello;

    I think, abiding the law is the best.

    .

    My experience is that to outsmart the law, one needs to know the law.

    Mr. John Briscoe, in his lecture says: “Outsmarting is not going to happen.”

    Well, it does happen: all the drugs from Mexico and Columbia, and elsewhere.

    There are private, unmanned, robotic submarines to Los Angeles from South- America.

    That is outsmarting.  Smugglers get apprehended, and etc…   A submarine can get lost.

    Last summer (May 2012) at Dana Point, California in international waters large amount

    (more than 3mil USD worth) of marijuana was recovered from sea, in the form of floating

    waterproof bales.  Did a submarine go down? How many made it? (USD=United States Dollar)

    http://www.ocregister.com/articles/bales-355157-floating-marijuana.html

    .

    .

    But the best part of knowing the law is being able to compile.  For example I do not think

    there is much need to fish at 150 nm from shore in EEZ, when 51 more nm, and it is legal.

    What is the point?  US Coastguard can easily deal with 60 armed seasteaders.  But they are

    harmless to 60 law abiding seasteadres.   I think the best is to know the law, and go with it

    as much as possible.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #21641
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS

     

    That’s why the first seasteads should be mobile artificial floating islands. Then, forget about the EEZ bullshit. You are a vessel now and you have the right of passage over any EEZ whenever you want. Keep in mind that the EEZ are in the international waters. And yes, a population can exist on this floating seasteads and enjoy whatever degree of freedom they choose,…why not?

     

    Because while you have the full right to sail within another nation’s EEZ you CANNOT collect resources. The EEZ are not international waters. From Part VII Article 86 regarding the High Seas:

     

    The provisions of this Part apply to all parts of the sea that are not included in the exclusive economic zone, in the territorial sea or in the internal waters of a State…

     

    So the EEZ is not considered “international waters” although, according to Part V Article 58 you have “the freedoms referred to in article 87 of navigation and overflight and of the laying of submarine cables and pipelines, and other internationally lawful uses of the sea related to these freedoms, such as those associated with the operation of ships, aircraft and submarine cables and pipelines”

     

    So you are free to sail through an existing nation’s EEZ. Just don’t fish in it…

    #21642
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    Sparky Spark

     

    What guarantee and security did the Pilgrims have at the time of landing?

     

    None, but you cannot compare the global geopolitical landscape of 2012 with the 1600s.

     

    Also, do you know what happened to the first group of Pilgrims? Do you want that to be the fate of your seastead?

     

    We live in a different time. The entire face of the globe is populated, teeming with people. There are no more frontiers.

     

    Seasteding comes with consequences too.

     

    Yes, but if you want your seastead to become more than just a slab of concrete floating in the ocean with a 4-person tent on it you are going to need to convince people to become part of your experiment…as well as their money. And people are not going to be willing to be a part of your experiment, or give you their money, if your pitch to them is “you might all drown, but hey, that’s life right?”

     

    gray area of laws

     

    The problem with that is, it works both ways. When a U.S. warship comes alongside your seastead and demands you come with them for being pirates, that grey area of the laws won’t look as promising.

     

    And may be forge something new

     

    If there is anything the status quo hates, it’s something new. Your best bet is to work within the system as much as possible, using existing precedent.

    #21643
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS

     

    No captain in the right mind, of any vessel, man o’war or merchant will dare tell a 200′ seastead captain with lets say 60 crew abourd,…”You can’t fish 150 miles offshore”.

     

    Unless that vessel is the 127m USCGC Bertholf. Good luck with your 60 hungry seasteaders against that…

     

    But who would want to hang out inside the EEZ of any nation for long??? There are at least 10 banks and/or submerged reefs in international waters that a seastead can drop the hook on and hang out there, no problem whatsoever.

     

    I agree. True seasteading will not work in an EEZ. You need to be on the high seas, and there are plenty of shallow-ish places where that can happen.

    #21644
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    Elan Wilson

     

    Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions

     

    You’re welcome.

     

    I am now left to wonder how these modern provisions of admiralty law impact the concept of the seastead in statehood…maintaining a defined territory…

     

    I don’t believe a permanent seastead will gain statehood until it has grown to sufficient size and had enough impact on the global stage to gain some political leeway. Palestine cannot even get statehood recognition, and it has land. I believe statehood is possible, but not for a long time. The bottleneck will always be the territory issue…and if I cannot be convinced that a floating cement block in the ocean is territory then you most certainly won’t convince existing nations.

     

    is it safe to say that under present standards of international law, a seastead cannot lawfully define a territory in it’s own plenary capacity, and thus, cannot qualify for recognition under such articles as make provisions for statehood?

     

    Yes.

     

    Is it safe to assume, then, that the present standards of international law are unprepared to recognize a seastead as a sovereign state,

     

    Yes. This is, in my opinion, by design. If you could build a floating block of cement and call it a state, thus granting it territorial waters and an EEZ, then you would have existing nations simply building “seasteads” everywhere to expand their territorial waters and EEZs. All the US would have to do is drop a string of these and pretty soon their EEZ is extending out 400nm from their shores.

     

    I would say that the existing nations have a vested interest in NOT allowing seasteads to be recognized as “states” for this reason.

     

    #21645
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    Elan Wilson

     

    It means we can’t harvest fish, plant or harvest a crop,

     

    Only if those resources come from the waters in the EEZ. There is no rule about planting crops in soil sitting ON the seastead, or farming fish in pools located ON the seastead. You simply cannot exploit “the natural resources, whether living or non-living, of the waters superjacent to the seabed and of the seabed and its subsoil, and with regard to other activities for the economic exploitation and exploration of the zone, such as the production of energy from the water, currents and winds;

     

    So if your seastead is free floating and designated a vessel, not permanently attached to the sea floor, and able to supply all of its food needs by harvesting resources grown solely ONBOARD the seastead itself, while producing energy from solar systems, and able to dispose of all waste products onboard without dumping them overboard, then you could be in an existing nation’s EEZ without concern.
    This leaves the question of what venues of lobby or petition might be pursued for added protections under international law for the rights of seasteaders to the free and unfettered use of the world’s oceans and it’s resources,

     

    We have “free and unfettered use of the world’s oceans and it’s resources”…just not in any existing nation’s EEZ. That still leaves a hell of a lot of water for us to use…

     

    as well as to establish recognition of their rights to maintain sovereign states and to define territory at sea,

     

    It’s not going to happen. As I said above, the existing nations have a vested interest in not allowing floating habitats (or any other kind of habitat) to have any claim over the high seas such as those existing nations enjoy.

     

    The recognition will have to come slowly. Once you have a massive seastead housing a few tens of thousands of people, growing your own food and manufacturing your own goods, building an infrastructure, you can begin to engage other nations in diplomacy or trade. But you need to get to that stage first before you can start worrying about those kinds of issues…

    #21646
    Avatar of spark
    spark
    Participant

    None, but you cannot compare the global geopolitical landscape of 2012 with the 1600s.

    Buzzword of the twentyfirst century.

    Also, do you know what happened to the first group of Pilgrims? Do you want that to be the fate of your seastead?

    Is that really a question or a lecture?

    “you might all drown, but hey, that’s life right?”

    Those are your words, and that is your perception.

    The number of the years might change, but there are people in distress all the time.

    Some are willing to take risks. Remember Elian Gonzalez!

    I got across the Iron Curtain in 1984. I communicated back to friends how I did it.
    Many never tried and they are envious of me for nothing. Some tried and made it.
    And some will always be with me, who tried and did not make it. Yes, that is life on
    life’s term.
    The global geopolitical landscape for me as a medical student in 1984 was plawed fields with
    tripping wires that shoot up signaling rackets. German sheperd doggies sniffing my footprints.
    Dark uniformed borderguards with live ammunition, ordered to shoot. High fence with barb wire
    and electricity. And bejond that: the big unknown.

    Well, I do have a sailboat, and I understand the responsibility I take when people
    come with me to sail. I understand that if I come back with an injury or with a dead body,
    that first thing I am going to be asked by the authorities: “What’s up skipper?”

    This is going for the maximum safety and security for life. I do not ask anyone to go anywhere.
    Just like I did not ask anyone in 1984. I did it alone. Later I met others who think the same.

    I also met plenty of people who told me the difficulties. I am grateful to them to remind me
    that there are difficulties. Before 1984 I heard dubious things on radio broadcasts:
    Voice of America, Radio Free Europe. In 2012 I had been reading http://www.seasteading.org

    I have no regret.

    2013: Happy New Year to all.

    #21647
    Avatar of Elan Wilson
    Elan Wilson
    Participant

    Reefs and shallows outside of the EEZs of existing nations have been mentioned…could anyone refer me to some of these areas or their coordinates, for more careful examination?  I’ve heard some people speaking of the Saya de Malha banks as being in unprotected territory, but the map I’m looking at shows France and Mauritius have pretty much everything out there annexed.

    #21648
    Avatar of spark
    spark
    Participant

    Hi Elan Wilson;

    .

    .

    I found the web site of the International Seabead Authority an interesting one:

    http://www.isa.org.jm/en/home

    I found an interactive map of the oceans. I cannot find it right now, but may be you want to look around.

    I also found google earth a valuable tool.  It shows underwater landscapes.  That changed my perception

    about the seas and oceans, and dry land too.

    Floating is probably necessary.  A platform that sits on the seabed in shallow water would be nice.

    That could be surrounded by floating platforms also.

    Community is probably necessary. A platform may be destroyed by others, when nobody is on it.

    However, if there is a human being on the platform, that may be a different case.  So, to develop a

    group of people to provide continuous human habitat on a platform is probably necessary to keep the

    platform.  And for that, a platform is needed.  Finding shallow water would be good too.

    I agree.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #21659
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Smith, as always, u don’t have a clue how things work “out there”. Leave it to us, the captains, to run boats, ships or seasteads.

    #21660
    Avatar of spark
    spark
    Participant

    Do you have a boat?

     

    #21668
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

     

    OCEAN!!  Where u been????  Dude, Emmett was talking about putting $100K into the Bergstead system but he backed out :(   Im still working on it.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 32 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.



Posted on at

Categories:

Written by

Blog/Newsletter

Donate