1. Skip to navigation
  2. Skip to content
  3. Skip to sidebar




The Sea Dollar

Home Forums Community General Chat The Sea Dollar

This topic contains 90 replies, has 23 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of Altaica Altaica 4 years, 6 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 61 through 75 (of 91 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #8350
    Avatar of Carl-Pålsson
    Carl-Pålsson
    Participant

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    the creation of a sovereign nation is a HUGE opportunity to create a monetary system that is highly resistant to many of the problems that plague the economies of macro-nations.

    I cannot stress how much I agree with this 100%. This is a chance to start fresh without ANY of the baggage that existing nations carry around. Economic policy is just the start.

    Isn’t this the very definition of “reinventing the wheel”? Everything that exists or happens in nation states is not bad, is it? Choosing not to adopt the things that do work well sounds like an epic failure in the making to me.

    What if you need a bicycle on your seastead. Will it have round wheels like the evil bicycles in the nation states?

    #8356
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    evil bicycles

    No, bicycles aren’t allowed because those are the tool of the police state. Come on, don’t be ridiculous. The point is to throw away everything that hasn’t worked and keep the things that have. Those that don’t learn from history, yada yada yada.

    Of course not everything that exists or happens in existing states is bad. The beauty of building a new nation is that we don’t have to wait for incremental change. Existing nations can’t even do that because of entrenched power centers that enjoy the status quo. We can learn from history and build something new, taking everything that works and change the things that don’t

    One of the things that doesn’t work is fiat currency. Hence a return to something that does work…a commodity standard. I’m not dumping fiat currency just because nations states use it…I am dumping it because it’s a stupid system.

    #8361
    Avatar of Carl-Pålsson
    Carl-Pålsson
    Participant

    Sounds reasonable enough, provided you stay away from imposing a commodity standard with force. Let people use bad currencies if they want to and the best practices will win out in the end.

    Thanks for clearing that up. My self-sufficiency warning radar went into high gear there for a while when it sounded like you were fixing to avoid “ANY baggage” of the nation states…

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    evil bicycles

    No, bicycles aren’t allowed because those are the tool of the police state. Come on, don’t be ridiculous. The point is to throw away everything that hasn’t worked and keep the things that have. Those that don’t learn from history, yada yada yada.

    Of course not everything that exists or happens in existing states is bad. The beauty of building a new nation is that we don’t have to wait for incremental change. Existing nations can’t even do that because of entrenched power centers that enjoy the status quo. We can learn from history and build something new, taking everything that works and change the things that don’t

    One of the things that doesn’t work is fiat currency. Hence a return to something that does work…a commodity standard. I’m not dumping fiat currency just because nations states use it…I am dumping it because it’s a stupid system.

    #8363
    Avatar of xns
    xns
    Participant

    Not protection, empowerment. Let me put it this way, I think the current system is stupid. It makes the entire nation subject to forces outside their control. I.e. Time. It would be utterly irresponsible for me to NOT try to come up with a system that is immune to many of the problems prevalent in the current system. Has anyone looked at what exactly I’m proposing? I’d like some actual, technical, critique at some point.

    There is, as far as I know, no currency that is pegged to the amount of foreign currency that the state holds. Neither is there a known central bank that will accept debt repayment in a different currency than the one that was lent. I believe, that a combination of these systems will produce an economy and currency that is highly resilient to the boom and bust cycles that have been prevalent in the current system used by the world.

    So, if someone could prove me wrong, I’d be very grateful.

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    #8366
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    imposing a commodity standard with force

    Individuals are free to exchange whatever they want when dealing with each other. Bread, sex, wine…that doesn’t matter. All official transactions will be in gold. That means you can’t put silver in the bank, or rubles, or euros. The national bank only holds gold, and all electronic transactions will be done with gold.

    But that isn’t so different than it is now. If my buddy says he’ll come and clean my gutters if I cut down that old tree in his yard, why should the government care? That is a private transaction between two people, and can be done however they see fit.

    Stores will all use the electronic banking system, so it will all be done in gold. But again, a store owner is free to accept labor…or anything else…in exchange for their goods if they choose.

    #8492
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    xnsdvd wrote:

    But that method still begs the question, how the hell do we control inflation? *SNIP* Where the hell does the extra X$2 come from?

    I’ve still been working on this problem, and I’ve found (as I have in the past) that it’s very hard to get a straight answer from an Austrian economist. But it seems like there is a consensus that new money will have to keep entering the system. The only question is how. It seems like two possibilities:

    1) You perform 100% reserve banking (nobody can lend what they don’t have) and you bring in new reserves by exporting more than you import or simply mining more gold.

    2) You only perform 100% reserve banking only on non-interest deposits and allow fractional banking for lending. This way you have a buffer…banks can lend more money than they have but cannot use funds that are in pure deposit accounts. So there are more dollars in the system than there is gold backing those dollars, but for those who just want to store their money their deposits are safe. This system will still require (I believe) the influx of new reserves but at a slower pace than option 1).

    However, neither of these options addresses the issue of what happens when all the gold (or whatever commodity you are using as a backing) is mined or owned and no more can be added to the system. Hopefully by that point the human race will have evolved into pure energy beings and we won’t need money anymore….

    I’m still working on putting all this together in a cohesive statement. Gotta go knock around a few more economists and see what falls out.

    #8661
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    So I’ve been doing some intense research on Monetarism, and it’s not doing anything to ease my concerns about a gold standard.

    Basically, the quantity theory of money states that variation in money supply have a direct impact on economic stability and fiscal health. The simple breakdown is that you need to grow your supply of money at the same rate as your economic output grows to keep inflation and deflation in check. Increase the money supply to fast and you get inflation. Don’t increase the money supply and you get deflation. Milton Friedman came up with this whole idea, and it sounds solid to me (which isn’t saying much!).

    So again, with a gold standard you are limited to how fast you can increase the supply of money by how fast you can increase your stores of gold. And once all the gold is mined you are screwed. It doesn’t surprise me to learn that Dr. Friedman didn’t see the gold standard as practical for this exact reason.

    So I guess I’m off to hit the books some more. Hey Patri, any thoughts? Did your grandfather ever impart any sage advise on how to marry these two ideas?

    #8690
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    Here’s a spreadsheet designed by somebody on the Mises forums that shows how it might be possible for transactions to exist in a society where the money supply stays constant:

    http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ak0d51fpM-tocDdqU2ZOZWxtN0ZESjQ3ZWsxRHZ4RVE&hl=en

    Looks like the gold standard has some plausibility again. I’ll keep digging.

    #8694
    Avatar of jtg423
    jtg423
    Participant

    But what if we back currency with whatever structures or saleable equipment we own. If you “own” a percentage of a business, part of your “worth” is the solid assets you have. Instead of backing things with gold, who’s value is in constant flux anyway (2005 gold sold for 300-450 USD/oz and in 2009 has sold for 700-1000 USD/oz), how about backing any currency or currency equivilent with assets like a bank will loan money bases on collateral.

    Your “worth” could still fluxuate but I feel that it will be able to understood better. For instance you buy you space on a steading for $250000. As this is the market price, based on quantifiable variables, the actual value of the space could be $225k. This would not depreciate much over time and of course would be revalued anytime “maintainence” were performed….

    I am sure there are issues with this idea but I think it still has merrit.

    Just a thought

    thanks

    #8696
    Avatar of dejayl
    dejayl
    Participant

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    So I’ve been doing some intense research on Monetarism, and it’s not doing anything to ease my concerns about a gold standard.

    Basically, the quantity theory of money states that variation in money supply have a direct impact on economic stability and fiscal health. The simple breakdown is that you need to grow your supply of money at the same rate as your economic output grows to keep inflation and deflation in check. Increase the money supply to fast and you get inflation. Don’t increase the money supply and you get deflation. Milton Friedman came up with this whole idea, and it sounds solid to me (which isn’t saying much!).

    So again, with a gold standard you are limited to how fast you can increase the supply of money by how fast you can increase your stores of gold. And once all the gold is mined you are screwed. It doesn’t surprise me to learn that Dr. Friedman didn’t see the gold standard as practical for this exact reason.

    So I guess I’m off to hit the books some more. Hey Patri, any thoughts? Did your grandfather ever impart any sage advise on how to marry these two ideas?

    Apparently the monetarist’s picture is refuted by taking a bigger sample: http://mises.org/story/1583

    If this is indeed true, I think it’s great since it refutes the position that there is overall utility in counterfeiting.

    #8698
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    jtg423 wrote:
    But what if we back currency with whatever structures or saleable equipment we own.

    I had come up with something similar once, but the problem is that the currency needs to be backed by something of value to people who are not part of the seastead…and it needs to be liquid. If I decide to leave the seastead do I cash in my seabucks for toasters, generators, and furniture?]

    To keep the cost of leaving very low you have to make it easy for people to leave your seastead. Cashing out needs to be simple, and something like gold (or platinum) is as simple as it gets.

    #8703
    Avatar of jtg423
    jtg423
    Participant

    I did not think this was a new idea. If you own a home you calculate your “worth” by the “market value” of that home. Why could you not do that with the share you own in whatever structure/vessel you reside on. Your can leverage the percentage of your ownership as collateral. So yes: toasters, generators, furniture, your living space(s) ect would be able to be “sold” back into whatever community you are leaving or you take it with you. Some of it will depreciate, some will appreciate…. just like with current market goods and services.

    Hopefully by the time there is an actual currency for a steading nation then there will also be banking systems that is able to serve the needs of the population. All of this is academic anyway as it will be a while before we reach these levels.

    thx

    #8704
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    jtg423 wrote:
    So yes: toasters, generators, furniture, your living space(s) ect would be able to be “sold” back into whatever community you are leaving or you take it with you.

    Yes, but what do you get in exchange when you sell your stuff back into the community? Just more seabucks? And if I decide to move to Australia what will I do with seabucks?

    #8709
    Avatar of jtg423
    jtg423
    Participant

    A currency exchange will be in place just like for every other recongnized currency in the world. I can not take a ruple to a corner store in the US and expect them to honor the value… I would not expect that the “Seabuck” would be any different.

    Again, like I said, new currency is not the problem nor is backing it… the problem is the building the community and systems needed to support it. These ideas were formalized and understood before the Roman empire.

    Cash and currency are just ideas that someone applied a set of understood “rules” to simplify the processes for handling it and to make it easier than trade and barter.

    As you have said, “dont reinvent the wheel”

    Thank you

    #8779
    Avatar of jtg423
    jtg423
    Participant

    As I said, gold prices fluctuate too, it wieghs a lot, and then you have to store it some where so you either run the gambit of people trying to jack you or paying a “terra-firma” bank. So fuck gold… it is not the best option. Back everything like collatoral, refuse to back anything that does not have a good “resale” value and set up an exchange rate for your currency like any other country.

    sorry for the language

    thx

Viewing 15 posts - 61 through 75 (of 91 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.



Posted on at

Categories:

Written by

Blog/Newsletter

Donate