Quentin | Would it be too crazy to consider providing services and activities that are generally outlawed on land? Such as organ transplants? |
Andrewdblevins | it wouldn’t be too crazy. |
valro | several come to mind…gambling…somke shops, i.e. Amsterdam..prostitution |
libertariandoc | Would it be too crazy to consider providing services and activities that are generally outlawed on land? Such as organ transplants? It could be done – but organ transplants are generally NOT outlawed anywhere. Most places have fairly strict rules about the source of organs, which might make a seastead (some distance from land) a less desireable location. Also, different organs require different skill teams to transplant and follow-up… |
DanB | It’s not crazy, but it’s dangerous. Seasteading is going to be hugely sensitive to PR issues. If people think we’re nice guys out to save the oppressed and feed the hungry, then the big governments will leave us alone or maybe even help us. If people think we’re wackos who just want to solicit prostitution, do drugs and avoid taxes, we’ll get shut down in the blink of an eye. This is going to be a problem even if 90% of the seasteaders are virtuous and generous. If the other 10% are wackos, the whole movement is going to get a bad image. Personally, I don’t think revenue generation per se is the biggest issue. If you get a lot of smart, hardworking people together, there are going to be ways to make money. So I wouldn’t risk tarnishing the seasteading brand just to make a few bucks. |
Quentin | Sorry libertariandoc I should have specified the selling of a kidney for example, and as technology advances potentially other organs. It’s an interesting moral question. There are some pretty compelling arguments both for and against. Personally I’m undecided. I copied the following from about.com; not sure about the date of this. “Should people be allowed to sell their organs? Currently, exchanging organs for money or other “valuable considerations” is illegal, but some members of the medical and business communities would like to change that. One of those is the American Medical Association’s influential Council on Ethical and Judicial Affairs. Convinced that the balance of moral and ethical concerns favors the ability to sell organs, they would like the laws to change, and the AMA’s governing house of delegates is scheduled to vote in June on whether to support a pilot program. The American Society of Transplant Surgeons has already endorsed giving money for cadaveric organs to the families of the deceased.” So it may be moot as far as Seasteading is concerned. DanB you bring up some interesting philosophical considerations…the definition of “wackos” and who and how “what people can do” will be decided. As far as prostitution is concerned the moral insights of Eliot Spitzer may come in handy. As far as drugs Michael Phelps may have some insights. And of course when it comes to taxes there is no better expert on making sure people pay than Timothy Geithner. Of course this is in jest. Admittedly I’m a bit of a gadfly (and a crappy speller). But I would like to hear some opines on the “wacko” definition and how what the residents are allowed to do is going to be figured out. I would agree that I would not want my personal definition of wackos to be associated with Seasteading. But how would we decide the definition? |
Carl-Pålsson | I guess this depends on how much grief you are willing to put up with from the governments of nation states. If you allow prostitution, like Nevada, for instance, or soft drugs, like the Netherlands, for instance, they probably won´t sink you with cruise missiles. But they probably will harass you with their coast guards and navies. I don´t think it´s a PR issue for seasteading in general. I think the general public will be able to tell that different seasteads have different sets of rules. Some will of course be against the very idea of spontaneous nation-building. The issue is sort of at the core of seasteading. We need to be able to do stuff that is outlawed in normal countries. If we can´t or won´t do this seasteading will fail. |
bkemper | The issues with a small isolated group generating income will be interesting. Essentially, there are no established trade routes, protection, and infrastructure of host nation. The challenge is — if there is a lucrative operation, it will be attractive for someone to control it. A maritime protection racket is not unheard of — actually, its been around as long as history. If you have a customer based operation, such as prostitution or smoke — why would they undertake the trouble to going to international waters when they can find it closer and less expensively, even if illegal? What is your transportation, housing, and other overhead for clients? If it is something that doesn’t require in-person costomers, such as offshore data transfer, the fact that it is lucrative makes it likely to be a target for interception or elimination. If you have something worth taking, someone will at least think of taking it. Then it comes to ROI … whether its worth the effort. The trick is the person with the stuff doesn’t set the ROI decision, its the person wanting to take stuff. Bart Kemper, P.E. |
Eelco | I don´t think it´s a PR issue for seasteading in general. I think the general public will be able to tell that different seasteads have different sets of rules. Some will of course be against the very idea of spontaneous nation-building. Im affraid i do not trust people in general to be so considerate. Either way, the nature of seasteading makes questions of ‘should we allow’ rather moot. We better accept the worst case, that any anything crazy that can happen on a seastead, will happen on a seastead. Anyone concerned about PR should anticipate this, and both physically and vocally distantiate themselves if they want to stand an optimal chance of surviving any resultant crossfire. |
GoldfishAuthor | Well, doing things that are generally outlawed on land would work, by why end there when more conventional things can be equally lucrative? For starters: call centers. I work in a call center and let me tell you, major corporations love nothing more than to pass off their angry customers to an outsourcing company. Assuming someone can pay for the space to be built and the ability to get phones online and set a good amount of revenue can be generated this way by creating tons of jobs and bringing in money to the seastead. Another way to make funds is post secondary education. Colleges and Universities tend to become thriving socio-economic centers on their own, with business springing up around them very quickly, catering to every college student’s need of food, books, and beer. This is also another way to generate money (as the school will undoubtedly be a ‘stead funded venture) by attracting students that want to experience life on the proverbial frontier while getting their education, much the same how many students make their way out of state or even out of country for school. This also will act as an attractant for a plethora of incredibly intelligent and promising professors and educators to move, looking to be a part of history, be able to experiment within a less strict legal system (using, say, stem cells), or just wanting a change of pace. We may have a different moral system than the rest of the world going into this, but we still can’t sell weed, organs, or any other morally grey product to people that don’t want it. Though we have heard of stupid haste in war, cleverness has never been seen associated with long delays. -Sun Tzu, the Art of War |
greyraven_r | Land fills are overflowing everywhere, a waste reclaimation/recycling based industry could easily garner the support of the states and localities you receive waste materials from. The waste of others can be the natural resources of a manufactured “land”, Everything which is disposed of can be reclaimed as the raw materials for new manufacture. Amazing strides have been made in the efficient production of biofuels from cultivated algeas, which can be used “domestically” and/or exported for profit. Don’t underestimate the profit and endearment potential from “civilian contractor” based security and incarceration services to a friendly nations. A privateer navy flying under the flag of understaffed nation could in the pursuit of piracy enforcement endear you to many nations and corporations. Banking and web server services are not good first choices for revenue, they have a tendancy of irritate the law enforcement agencies of sovereign nations, and should be minimized until sovereignty is achieved. |
JLGARTIFICIALISLANDS | I think if we do things that are not legal in most land nations they will grow not liking us. That could be a problem of it’s own! |
J.L.-Frusha | In my honest opinion, it comes-down to what the seastead is designed for, BEFORE it goes to sea. Hard to turn a kelp-farm into a brothel, casino, call-center, etc. How do you design a structure, BEFORE you determine the desired use and needs? My idea, to make money, is to raise kelp and oysters, selling some kelp, feeding the rest to oysters and selling oysters and shells(Mother of Pearl). It’ll be closer to shore than those seeking NATIONAL independence… BTW, if you declare independence, as a new nation, are you not morally required to set-up the new nation in such a way that it first provides for the children? That’s the next phase. You can build all you want, but if the nation dies, for lack of future generations, it’s all throwing money into the trash. Now, that may not sound glamorous, but it’s reasonable. I have faith in my Gods, a design idea, studies to back my choices, a business prospect and a dream… People “moved West.” with that little. or very little else. Not necessarily to get away from the Government, but to escape poverty and societies that didn’t care, as well. For as many people as moved into the frontier, there are almost as many reasons. My Seastead will be that, a SEASTEAD. It comes from adapting the word HOMESTEAD, to accomodate a new frontier… I joined this site to help spread good ideas, to learn more, pass on what little I know and to(some day) find help in my endeavor. In the process, I am making friends. I couldn’t ask for more! I’ll have mine in Texas waters, most likely… I know where my bread is buttered and where most of my family lives. I also know where my medications and medical benefits come from. If our trade is made in my wifes’ name, I don’t have an “earned income,” which means lower taxes and better benefits for us… |
safira | After reading some of the posts here, it is like Yikes!!!!!!!! Seems to be everyone is afaird of everyone else … There is no big deal about making money and living on a Boat vessel or whatever you wish to call it … I have been doing it scince 2000 and get by very good … as to the cocept of seasteading sounds great but I do not think it will work …. if it does great …. but to many people have to many ideas on what should and should not be allowed … A thought on the subject would be to go with the flow … not against it …. |
xiagos | Will other nations take exception to our seasteads business acticities? Why should they as long as we prove more of a benefit to others than a detriment? If our seastead becomes a haven for pirates, or becomes a port-of-call in the international slave trade, then we might become a target for some sort of policing action by somebody’s military. If our citizens earn billions smuggling drugs into neighbouring countries, again, some sort of action against us become possible. On the other hand, there are many countries in the world that host shady operations without much interference. Bangkok, Thailand has been identified by many as being aptly name, because of its prostitution industry. Even though they thake some heat off-and-on for child prostitution, operators haven’t done much more than move child exploitation more underground. The same can be said for Cambodia. Even though do-ggoders think prostitution is abhorent, these places, and many,many others, still operate freely. I think that growing kelp and fish to feed the world, supplying passerbies with supplies, and providing other honourable goods and service will be more important than Lady Tiffany’s Sporting House, or Wyatt’s Poker Parlor, or even Col. Wellington’s Opium Den. The issue will be: What are the overall merits of the seastead? Are we acting like a legimate nation of free people (some of whom operate establishments of ill-repute), or as a haven for hooligans and pirates? In other words, will an attack on us hurt the world community more than it will save us from our own “sins”? If there is a threat we will face, it will be from busy-body do-gooders trying to force their morals on us by exposing our “wrongs” to the world. For most of these, a good punch in their overly long noses will serve. But, for the most zealous…well, they shouldn’t have tried to swim home carrying that much chain.  |
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