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regulations on the water

Home Forums Community Dreaming / Crazy Ideas / Speculation regulations on the water

This topic contains 14 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of usu-law usu-law 8 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 15 total)
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  • #23297
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

       Since i want to seastead alone, and i think i am not alone in wanting to seastead alone, how does one get around the regs about someone needing to be standing watch 24-7 on a boat? And what if the seastead grows up to weigh more than the uscg (or some other governing body) thinks is proper, and demands i dock the seastead until i have license for so much weight (200 tons or whatever)? I was reading of a lighthouse that was set up and 12 hours later a ship hit it. The Texas towers set up on the usa east coast were hit several times. What is a seastead’s legal standing if hit by a ship?
     
    Has anyone settled these questions for real?

    #23319
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Ok, let me re-phrase the question…. does anyone know of sites where ships can be anchored indefinately because their draft is so deep it prevents them from entering any port, or even getting closer to any land mass? This wouldn’t be lightering, where a vessel may be temporarily while being unloaded. I see “lightering zones” on some charts, but if my seastead isn’t being unloaded, can i still park it there, with no one aboard, while i take a go-fast boat to shore for groceries?
     
    This has ramifications for entering a country, if you cannot get your vessel to the dock because the water there isn’t deep enough. I figure a customs inspector can drive out to see your place, and decide there if they can tolerate you visiting, but while you are in customs arranging such a visit, your vessel will be unmanned in their territorial waters.

    #23333
    Profile photo of steveh
    steveh
    Member

    Whilst some ships are too big for some ports they don’t get chartered to go to those ports so the situation of them not being able to enter any port or get close to any land mass just doesn’t arise. If they haven’t got orders for a cargo then they anchor in designated anchorages marked on the charts. Fujairah and the various anchorages around the Singapore Straits are classic examples of this – you can tell what charter rates are like by the number of ships sitting there waiting for market rates to improve.

    As long as it’s safe to do so and there are no restrictions marked on the chart or in any local rules you are only limited where you can anchor by how much cable you have. Typical exclusions would be near underwater pipes/cables, in a fairway or TSS etc. Probably would include the lightering area you are talking about although checking the chart/local rules would be the only way to give a definitive answer.

    For watchkeeping requirements have a read through Rule 5 of the IRPCS although useful to learn them all if you are doing anything on the water. Rule 5 says you should always keep a watch appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions. Usefully/worryingly it’s up to you to decide what is ‘appropriate’ – if you are anchored away from busy areas and are happy you aren’t dragging then nothing to stop you nipping ashore. If your boat hits something or even someone hits you though then you’re going to take at least some of the blame and costs.

    If you haven’t spent some time at sea I’d recommend not trying to go single handed straight away, get some experience with someone who knows what they are doing. The sea can be a wonderful idyllic retreat but it can also get downright nasty when you stop paying attention.

    #23335
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Steve said

    Whilst some ships are too big for some ports they don’t get chartered to go to those ports so the situation of them not being able to enter any port or get close to any land mass just doesn’t arise.

    But i am pretty sure there’s no dock with alongside depth of 200ft, no bay with 200ft depth clear to the ocean, etc.. I thought of the lightering area because it pretty much must be outside traffic lanes. Even if i decided to allocate some remaining brain cells to reducing the draft temporarily, it may not be practical.

    #23336
    Profile photo of steveh
    steveh
    Member

    Draught of the biggest ships is about 25m (80ft) so I’d agree you aren’t likely to find 200ft at any berth.

    If you are planning to have a 200ft draught though then remember that as a rule of thumb your anchor cable needs to be around six times the depth. Assuming you want another 50 ft or so of underkeel clearance so you aren’t scraping the bottom then you will need to pay out around 450m (1500 ft) of anchor cable. Even if it is practical to carry that much then your anchor position would need to be well over a kilometre from anything else to allow swinging room as the tide changes.

    Finding somewhere to anchor near any port with that draught is going to be very difficult/near impossible in my opinion.

    #23338
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    With 200ft of vessel draft, in 250ft of water, i don’t need 1500ft of anchor chain if i deploy the anchor from the keel. I agree with you that deploying the anchor from the topside would be really impractical in this situation. The goal of the question isn’t to locate a port with 200ft of draft, the goal is to be a reasonable reason to anchor away from port. Simply put, the regulatory agency in charge cannot expect my vessel to be near shore if doing so will ground the vessel.

    #23339
    Profile photo of steveh
    steveh
    Member

    That’s an interesting idea, never thought about anchoring from the lowest point rather than the above water. Are you planning physical access to wherever the anchor cable comes onboard or some kind of remote operation/monitoring?

    I’m no expert on US rules (on the other side of the pond) but I guess you will have to comply with both the CBP rules and any state legislation. Out of interest just looked up the CBP Vessel Inspection Guide (http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/vessel_guide_4.pdf) and looks like no need to produce a manifest but any crew do need to clear immigration and “must be inspected by a CBP officer at a designated port of entry” (page 34). List of designated ports of entry here http://www.cbp.gov/contact/ports.

    So appears to be no inspection mandated for private vessels (may be different under individual state laws) but you should declare your entry to the CBP at the nearest designated port.

    #23340
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Well, to start with, you don’t “deploy” the anchor, but “drop” anchor :) Also, there is no such thing as “dropping from the keel” (what the hack is that??) Anchors get dropped from the deck (on the bow or stern). Period. As for the rest of it (where to or not to anchor), it’s all marked on the nautical charts covering the area you are navigating in.

    #23341
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Ocean, sorry about that, the whole submarine fleet is doing it wrong. Here’s a pic of a stowed anchor up undeneath a sub: http://boomer.user-services.com/drydock/990313-12-675.html . And here is the anchor deployed: http://boomer.user-services.com/photos/990313-13/990313-13-675.jpg . Clearly it’s not being dropped off the bow or stern. I have seen other boats where there was an anchor trunk down thru the hull, pretty much just a pipe, but the anchor was dropped down thru it from the chain locker, nothing was up on deck.
     
    You said “As for the rest of it (where to or not to anchor), it’s all marked on the nautical charts covering the area you are navigating in.”, but i have not seen anchoring areas for 200ft of draft, which is why i asked.

    #23342
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    LOL, I thought we are talking about floating platforms, not ballistic missiles submarines…It doesn’t rally matters where you drop the hook from. What really matters is for that hook to HOLD.

    Where did you get this 200′ draft?? Nothing floating on Earth has 200′ draft, yet. Why are you trying to find solutions to non existing problems? But assuming that 200′ draft seastead will be build, I don’t think it will need a “designated anchoring area”,…:)

    Just find a nice sandy bottom in 1000′ of water 5nm offshore and drop the hook. Seasteads with 200′ draft (therefore around 2 miles long) won’t need “permission” to anchor from nobody. They’ll just do so. Of course, in accordance with international maritime law.

    #23343
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    We, or i, are, or is, talking, or writing, about floating platforms, or decks. This url gives a pretty complete rundown on what “heave plates” are about: http://www.google.com/patents/US7878734 . But the basic fact is waves interact with bulk, and floatation requires some bulk in the floaties (displacing the water with air), and if the floats are below the waves (as in a SWATH boat) there’s less for the waves to push around. To think outside the box, and mix up some ideas, if the SWATH boat extended it’s legs (with the floatation hulls as feet) down to where you’d normally drop heave plates to, the movement resistance provided by the heave plates is now provided by the boat’s floatation pontoons. Make them, and the bottom 100ft of the legs (between the pontoons and the boat above the waves) with concrete (to keep the weight down below), and you have a very deep draft, but fairly lightweight (100 tons), very stable floating platform. Heave plates are used on oil platforms, come in various designs, and are sunk as deep as practical below wave interaction, and/or as a way to lower the center of gravity.
     
    But where do you come up with the “2 miles long” figure for a seastead?

    #23344
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    My figure for 200ft draft is based on several points:

    1. wavelengths for storm waves
    2. depth of troughs of storm waves
    3. finding non-moving water
    4. OTEC cooling
    5. why not?

    Points 1, 2, 3 relate directly to habitability. You must not tip over, go under, or be smacked by wave peaks. If the boat motion affects your handwriting, or pouring a glass of water, or sloshing in the toilet, it’s too much movement to be acceptable by most people or animals. Item 4 is about practicality, so even if there is not enough energy difference for making useable electricity, perhaps the deep water is cool enough to aid air conditioning on a hot day, it’s certainly 100psi for storing compressed air, and 100psi at the right temperature makes storing propane trivial. Item 5 is that 200ft is simply not that far, the shortest route to my mailbox is 200ft. Re item 3, there’s not that much water movement at 200ft (assuming the ocean floor is still some ways down), so there’s quite significantly less tension stress on concrete parts.
     
    The thing is about rules for anchoring is that it’s not practical to have a collapseable set of 200ft legs under a boat just so you can get closer to shore, that’s hardly what seasteading is about anyhow. It may be practical to drop the legs off in deep water and tow the deck to shore, but that leaves the legs remaining out in the deep, hopefully anchored, even if sitting on the bottom. So i am wondering if there are already deep anchorages allocated, or if it’s allowed but the words aren’t on the maps to signify it.

    #23345
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Ohh, OK. Well, for a 2 miles long surface floating (barge or platform like) seastead, the 200′ draft seems to be the right figure. As for the rest, I think it will take $ tenth of millions just to research the technical feasibility of such structure. As I said before, I am not here to reinvent the wheel when it comes to seasteading. Simple, proven and tested floating platforms will do it for me. And from personal experience, whatever shape and whatever size you will float out there it will always move one way or another. Why waste time with anything else?

    #23346
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Well, SWATH boats aren’t new, some floating oil rigs are way deeper than 200ft and not 2 miles long/wide, so i am not clear what i am thinking that’s new? Almost 40 years ago i used four 55-gallon drums to make a floating platform, a few years ago i made a nice lil pontoon boat, and all along people have been doing what they have always been doing, so isn’t it time for something new? Besides, if a floating base can be made that “anchors” itself into deep calm waters with heave plates or large-bore sunken pontoons, and actively stays still within a few inches, regular active stabilization tech can suspend a deck stable witin fractions of an inch atop that. Altho i am speaking of vertical and lateral stabilisation, skyscrapers and floating wind turbines have used tuned/active mass stabilizers for decades: http://tinyurl.com/n4pc5da , why not a seastead?

    #23354
    Profile photo of usu-law
    usu-law
    Member

    Its nice to see such wonderful information on discussion boards which helps individuals to get connected to each other.

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