A Practical Beginning
August 3, 2011 at 4:46 pm #14534
The problem is, I can’t get on board with either of the mininations I have seen linked from people on this site. Both people are too far left for me, and bring along ideas that I abhor in the United States, and don’t support. For me, the best way to go would be to just strike out on my own with a few other like-minded people. You get too many people involved, then you start bringing in ideals that don’t really line up with yours. I’m no socialist, and don’t really want anything to do with any form of socialism out there. This presents a problem when you deal with city people. They agree with a lot of socialist ideals. Rural folks are more independent, and more self-sufficient, and therefore would (in my humble opinion) make the best seasteaders.August 3, 2011 at 5:55 pm #14538
Since a lot of the hardware will be automated, the fish cages will ride through a hurricane under water, where they will be much safer. As for providing havens for shipping… that might work. However, I’m talking about starting things out, not mature seasteading. You have to start somewhere, and fish farming is a good start.
As to all of the eggs in one basket, you would not just farm the carnivores. To be truly self-sufficient, you would have to also farm the food stock and the aquatic plant life the food stock lives on. As I said before, one of these fish farms would take up quite a few acres of sea. Probably the best way to live this way would be in a ferrocement sphere that could go under the waves with the automated fish cages, thereby making the whole process self-sustaining. The only thing you would have above the water things for would be for communications.
As to diversifying business… you could probalby refine biodiesel at sea. This would allow you to refuel any boat that comes by if they’re willing to pay you for it. As for open ocean ports… I don’t really know if that’s feasible. Now you’re talking building things like breakwaters, which would be a more mature technology. Not something you would START a seastead with. And we are, after all, talking about STARTING a seastead in this thread (as per my intention).August 3, 2011 at 6:44 pm #14540
That is where a lot of us here don’t agree much,…unfortunatelly. You see this practical beginning as launching a big fish farm operation that would take “up quite a few acres of sea”, straight out to sea, really deep offshore. That will take a huge capital investment, in the range of tenth of millions of dollars. X can really give you a very down to Earth estimate since he’s in business. All I can say is, if you have the money, Good Luck to you. I don’t have that type of cash. To me a practical beginning is a seastead no bigger then 1500 sq.ft, no more than $50k, and no further than half a mile offshore.August 3, 2011 at 7:19 pm #14537
My point is that we (THE MANKIND) should RESPONSIBLY be fishing the oceans. Which is not happening,…ou contraire, my friend. And we won’t stop doing that until we’ll make the last dollar, out of the last fish left swimming into the ocean. When that will happen (and unfortunately it will one day), then we will see huge fish farms poping left and right out there. The oceans will no longer be ecosystems, just fixed means of production for Fish Farm Inc. In terms of the pelagic fish, I was talking about the carnivore species. While I am not an expert in fish farming, but just by judging certain practices of the industry, I just wonder if catching millions tons of anchovies in order to just make fish oil and fish food pellets is a “good thing” for the ocean’s ecosystems,…it’s like aliens coming to Earth (which is what we are to the oceans) and harvest all the corn, thus removing an important food segment from the human’s environment and leaving few hundred millions poor people to die of starvation.
Now don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against or pro fish farming. I just don’t like how farmed raised fish tastes compared to “free range” fish.
My second point was basicaly not to throw all your eggs in one basket when it comes to seasteading. My view regarding succesfull seasteading is diversification of businesse aboard a seastead. But this is just me,…If you can fish farm 1000nm offshore, you can also throw a line in the water and fish (why wouldn’t you?), you can also be a supply/rest stop for the crusing sailors passing by, a small on the water resort/casino/whorehouse (whatever you can get away with), you can also produce hydrogen and sell it as an alternative to propane, you can also conduct salvage treasure hunting operation around your location.
All that just in case that the next hurricane coming your way (that you can’t really out run or avoid with all the nets and cages hanging around your seastead) will wash away all your harvest, including hardware,…or you might not make it since you won’t be able to compete with the already established fish farming operations in Malaysa, Singapore, Thayland or Indonesia.
Seasteading is all about the survival of the fittest, IMHO.August 3, 2011 at 7:21 pm #14539
There is a HUGE difference between SOCIALISM and SOCIALIZED. Socialism is when the means of production are owned by the state and in general there is very little or no private property. Socialized is when a “service” is conceived and run in such manner that it will benefit society as a whole. In the context of seasteading, due to its maritime nature, you will probably see a lot of “socialization”.
How much socialism, will all depend of how a seastead will be built. If a “Big Wallet” (corporate or otherwise) will build a seastead, it will be a oligarchy dictatorship of some sort, socialist or capitalist, don’t matter. Kiss your rights and freedom good bye. If a seastead will be build on several “Small Wallets”, by the people and for the people, as a small floating community, than it can’t be socialist since the people who build it own the means of production as well as private property. In this case, you will see a high degree of “socialization” because it will make a lot of economic sense and benefit everybody. Here are few examples (assuming a small 50 people seastead, 1000nm offshore):
August 3, 2011 at 7:57 pm #14541
- Energy production (electricity) would be much cheaper if socialized. Assuming it will start with generators and gradually move toward solar and wind alternatives, one powerplant with one main and one back up generator that will service the community and every member of the community will pay a small fee to supply, operate and maintain this service will be far cheaper than every individual having to deal with generating it’s own power.
- Healthcare, the same thing. Everybody pays a bit for an onboard medical and dental clinic for “free” care. Otherwise, how?,..1000nm offsore.
- Water. Can you emagine making (desalinizating) and storing your “own” water? It would be a daily nightmare. So, paying for one watermaking plant that stores and distributes pleny of water to the community will make a lot of sense.
- Food supply. Imagine an individual having to drive a boat 2000nm one trip to closest shore to shop for groceries. Everybody will have to have a boat, and one that can take that trip and pay for fuel out of their own pocket. On top of paying for the supplies. Almost impossible and unsustainable. But paying for a supply cargoship to deliver every 6 month all necessary food and other products for the community will make more sense.
My favorite start up set ups are the following 8 – or a mix of them.
The catamaran float / The plate float out / The real estate squaremeter deal / The Captain Nemo float out / The bubble hotel / The current turbine / Breakwater lagoon marina / Oceanic port city design /
I am no expert on ocean farming so i take the lead of x in this field. If i understand you right the clear water far from coastal towns is a key element. So oceanic fish pods might be a feasible solution. The oceanic living space for the people running that farm could be a platform of 100x 40m size (minimum to be confortable in open ocean conditions) or a much smaller structure that would have to operate semisubmerged to be comfortable and save in waves as they occur in open ocean – a sphere was suggested – i would go for a blimp shape for mobility.
concretesubmarine.comAugust 3, 2011 at 8:55 pm #14542
But I’m not talking about putting everyone in one structure. I like the blimp idea. I’m more of the self-sustainability. A blimp shaped submersible pod as a single family home in the center of a string of fish cage pods (of the geodesic sphere type) attached with a grid of rope would be the ultimate startup. You are starting a seastead and a business at the same time.
Alternatively, you grow algae on the surface of the ocean and have a refinery turn the biomass into fuel. Then you sell the fuel. Either way, you’re going to take up a bit of area on the water. The good thing is, you can go 3d, and don’t just have the surface to deal with.August 4, 2011 at 12:31 am #14543
i rebuilt the mini-berg from scratch…
the watchtower conceals a 150 gallon water tank
“Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”August 4, 2011 at 2:41 am #14544
That house is still way too small for a family of 4 or 5.August 4, 2011 at 3:20 am #14545shadowmane wrote:
That house is still way too small for a family of 4 or 5.
it would be tight for that size family. i think this is better for a couple thats not yet ready to have kids, or a couple who has 1-2 very young children. theres a lot of households that have just 1-3 people. the greatest thing, tho, is that we have this layout now. it is 10m square, (1076 sq ft). add 2m in either or both directions and you start getting some serious room (1,550 sq ft), 2 more meters (2110 sq ft), and 2 more (2755 sq ft).
not to mention additional levels!
“Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”August 4, 2011 at 5:13 am #14548
10m sq up to 20m sq
that family should be pretty comfy now
“Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”August 4, 2011 at 2:11 pm #14553
I think those things would easily flip if the sea got up. They are probably sea worthy, but not storm worthy. I’m not talking about hurricane, just your typical one or two day gail that would get the sea rolling. At the very least, everyone would get sea sick from the rolling (provided it didn’t get flipped).
By the way, are you using a CAD or a 3D Graphics program. I’m pretty nifty with Blender, but I’ve never really tried my had using a CAD before. How about rendering me that with a sphere. You wouldn’t have the nifty boat perch, but you would have a more stable house.August 4, 2011 at 2:51 pm #14555
sketchup – 3d, theres a rendering program to make these models look realistic but i dont like it that much. cant afford the good stuff.
with regard to flipping, i dont see why it would. one time – just for visual affirmation – i took a container and filled it with water. then i put a plastic cup in the water and a ceramic mug. a plastic cup sits on the surface like a boat. the mug barely floats because the mouth almost sits under water. if you splash the water around and make a ruckus with it, the cup will react to every “wave”. the mug barely moves until it takes on water and sinks.
the point of that demonstration is that it shows how having a large amount of the weight below the surface is great for stabilizing. of course on the ocean the waves can get up to 50 ft or more. but such extreme conditions dont happen every month they are very rare. in the worst storms, i believe the waves would just go right ove the top of a berg, but i dont have any proof yet.
its important to realize that this is not like a boat, not even like a ferrocement boat. this has 6 inch thick steel reinforced concrete walls. it sits halfway down in the water even without ballast. its not made to be moved very often. maybe a few times over its life, and it would be an expensive production. moving requires a commercial tug boat or some other heavy duty tow.
“How about rendering me that with a sphere.” – i dont have the sligtest idea what u have in mind. make a drawing on paper, take a picture and put it up.
“Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”August 4, 2011 at 8:22 pm #14564
Hmmm… talking about an iceberg gives me an idea. If you were to build it like a pyramid, with four sides, but coming to a point, it would react almost exactly like an iceberg. In fact, you would have more of it submerged than you would have showing… just like an iceberg.
I have Linux. Sketchup hasn’t been ported to it yet.August 4, 2011 at 9:33 pm #14581
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Written by shadowmane