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Possible Solution of UN recognition

Home Forums Community Dreaming / Crazy Ideas / Speculation Possible Solution of UN recognition

This topic contains 38 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS OCEANOPOLIS 4 years, 6 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 39 total)
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  • #7730
    Avatar of Carl-Pålsson
    Carl-Pålsson
    Participant

    Jeff wrote:

    Why would UN recognition be at all desireable, or even necessary? No nation that matters gives a care about what the UN says, they will do what they want to do anyway. The UN is not some sort of international supercop that gets to impose it’s will on anyone

    No, but it would like to be: http://rkba.org/federal/state/freedom_war.html

    Note that the U.S. State Department currently disavows their 1961 document, but it’s pretty clear where the intentions lie: world government supremacy over all people.

    [/quote]

    Scary stuff. That is like the ultimate expression of hoplophobia.

    #7770
    Avatar of Jeff-Chan
    Jeff-Chan
    Participant

    Carl wrote:
    Scary stuff. That is like the ultimate expression of hoplophobia.

    Unfortunately it’s a reality one worlders want. There’s written proof from the U.S. government.

    #7794
    Avatar of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    a wonderful, wondrous dream that died in the politics of the Cold War… Had the US government not been so paranoid and closed minded, had the American People not been so paranoid and closed minded, had the Soviets not been so paranoid and closed minded we might have arrived where we are now a long time ago and without all the blood shed! The ‘One Worlders’ have won! The only question that remains now is whether human freedom can be attained at sea, where ‘They’ and ‘Them’ will ‘just let it be…’ If they do, what form will that ‘freedom’ take? Anarcho-Capitalism which hasn’t, doesn’t and in my opinion can’t exist, Democracy which is a degenerate form of government which history has clearly shown results in anarchy and inevitable dictatorship or Republic, the Rule of Law? Where I cast MY vote is no secret but no matter what, Seasteaders WILL have to abide by and conform to the ‘rules’ that the Nation States have established if they are to survive long enough to find out!

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Avatar of cthulhujunior
    cthulhujunior
    Participant

    Seasteading is the attempt to form many governments in the spirit of experimentation and freedom of choice. The UN is an attempt to combine all the governments of the world for peace, stability and uniformity. We want diversity, freedom, and relative isolation, only dealing with each other for trade; the United Nations wants everyone, well, united, culturally and governmentally. Hence, despite all the marketing in the world, we and the UN would by definition not get along. We belong to contradictory organizations- one for many small governments, the other for one huge one. Might be a tiny kink in any PR plans. I still like my rogue-yachter idea, but I’ve watched too much Doctor Who and probably romanticize the traveling vagabond too much. Anyway, hope this helps.

    #7810
    Avatar of libertariandoc
    libertariandoc
    Participant

    Seasteading is the attempt to form many governments in the spirit of experimentation and freedom of choice. The UN is an attempt to combine all the governments of the world for peace, stability and uniformity. We want diversity, freedom, and relative isolation, only dealing with each other for trade; the United Nations wants everyone, well, united, culturally and governmentally. Hence, despite all the marketing in the world, we and the UN would by definition not get along. We belong to contradictory organizations- one for many small governments, the other for one huge one. Might be a tiny kink in any PR plans. I still like my rogue-yachter idea, but I’ve watched too much Doctor Who and probably romanticize the traveling vagabond too much. Anyway, hope this helps.

    Well said. The UN stands for everything seasteads, democracies, and freedom loving people are trying to get away from

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I won’t be wronged. I won’t be insulted. I won’t be laid a-hand on. I don’t do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.

    #7811
    Avatar of cthulhujunior
    cthulhujunior
    Participant

    Thanks

    #7814
    Avatar of xns
    xns
    Participant

    Well cuthulhu put it quite succinctly no? But it still begs the question;

    How do we win over the hearts and minds of the people? In my mind there is no better defense against authoritarian states than the support of their own people.

    How do we get the citizens of our potential oppressors to recognize our right to unclaimed territory? Though.. I get the feeling that if there WERE an easy answer to that question, the desire for seasteads would never have come up in the first place. :p

    #7818
    Avatar of Carl-Pålsson
    Carl-Pålsson
    Participant

    xnsdvd wrote:

    How do we get the citizens of our potential oppressors to recognize our right to unclaimed territory?

    Produce things and sell to them. Buy the things they make.

    #7825
    Avatar of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    junior was succinct but wrong. The UN was not and could never have been a ‘One World Government’ even if it had succeeded beyond its creators wildest dreams! Closed minded fear and paranoia not with standing, simple human greed would have prevented that. The UN was intended to preserve the Four Freedoms that so many had fought and died for hopefully short of another World War by providing a means to settle disputes between nations before they arrived at that point. Judged in that light the bumbling, stumbling wishful thinking nonsense of the UN is a glorious success!

    As for winning over the hearts and minds of people, if we build it, they will come. If we don’t build it they will come and build it themselves. The massive seasteads we see pictured here? Probably not unless a macro nation state government is behind it! Ships and boats, a rag tag fugitive fleet fleeing the [enter name of tyranny here] yes. Junior’s ‘Rouge-Yachties’ will lead the way… You can’t ‘sell’ freedom and liberty to people who want to pick up a telephone, call 911 and sit there and wait for help to come. NO, people like that have, do and will sit there while their house burns down around them! What’s more, they resent anyone who would do different! The people who came and still come to the US, the wretched refuse of teaming foreign shores come here because here, still, yet, you can save yourself! Soon, that may not be the case…

    As for getting recognition, as Doc put it ‘Why would…. recognition be at all desirable, or even necessary?’ If we just do it, keep our heads down and our mouths more or less shut, so long as we take nothing save ourselves out of ‘THEIR’ system, we would become a de facto reality!

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Are you speaking from yours and your own family experience??

    Lets not generalize here. You might be wrong.

    #7828
    Avatar of GreenGestalt
    GreenGestalt
    Participant

    >>> we just do it, keep our heads down and our mouths more or less shut, so long as we take nothing save ourselves out of ‘THEIR’ system, we would become a de facto reality!

    I strongly, strongly disagree here.

    I suggest reading some info on “Burning Man”. Over the years the place is increasingly covered with cops looking for anyone to bust and hoping by brutality and harassment to incite the participants to riot so they can shut the thing down once and for all.

    Put this in perspective:

    1. These are people who so want a brief illusion of true “Freedom” that they go into one of the most barren, hostile places on earth. Yet the forces of control can’t leave them alone, and they probably spend a hundered times the money on salary that they “Earn” from fines and busts.

    2. The enviornmental concern is asinine. The people racing power vehicles, regular cars and just hiking do far more damage and waste more energy than dozens of festivals.

    3. The safety concern is also pointless. Lots of people wander, or are dumped, in that area and disappear and die, far more than from that festival which I don’t think has even had one “lost” fatality yet. (a lot of light and noise, especially at night, easy to pinpoint)

    There is nowhere to truly hide. If there was, I’d be more for trying to make “Hidden Cities”.

    To a point I agree with “head down” but we must prepare for conflict. The first and best step is UN recognition, such as by allying with an island nation and expanding to a large confederation, for it makes it more difficult for the USA to overtly assault us. Without it, they can come in any time, take any property, break up families, even vandalize property and shoot at will like they can to the citizens of the USA, we’d be “Shantytowns on the Sea” and have less rights than squatters in the US. But openly breaking UN laws would let the bankers openly steal more from the USA and the country can afford it less now, so they would hesitate as long as we weren’t trying to get nukes and harboring people planning to go to the USA and attack them. Not that they won’t eventually claim that, having people willing to openly lie to justify a war, but they’ll wait and that will give us time to prepare a rather nasty “Plan B”. And, I’m sure with the “Brain Drain” seasteading will give the USA and other countries, we’ll have enough tech to make a really strong repulse without needing nukes or bioweapons. Although we ourselves should not seek Plan B, we should first keep communication ties with them and other countries and wage warfare by our own “Propaganda” so that an assault on us would look like a WACO and cost too much politically to be worth it.

    We might “Luck Out” and just have the USA go bankrupt and collapse into a castrated ex-power without turning into a Fascist state. China would be a bigger worry then, but again with UN recognition they’d be easier to deal with, not messing with us as long as we didn’t mess with them. Mater of fact, they’d probably send “Ambassadors” and construct indstrial/Communist versions of SeaSteading complexes.

    #7830
    Avatar of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    I know that was a sweeping generalization but it comes from a good source:The plaque at the base of the Statue of Liberty. As for my family the answer is yes, they were the wretched refuse yearning to be free and came here with nothing much more than the cloths on their backs my research indicates. You at least came with an education Ocean. Tavi, if I may, are you a citizen or working toward citizenship?

    Green, you mention WACO… Waco, Ruby Ridge and other incidents of that type are aberrations that the CRIMINAL Justice System seeks to avoid: they want their victims to go down with a whimper not a BANG! ‘They’ don’t want to frighten the 911 dialing sheep because ‘They’ and ‘Them’ know that somewhere lurking in the back of the minds of those sheep is the idea that they have ‘rights’. Laughable, nonsensical ideas like governments deriving their just powers from the people and such. My thought is that if and when we get enough people together, on the same page, at least on the BIG PICTURE, we’d be too big to stop. Until then, keeping our heads down would be a necessity. As for preparing for conflict, the “Plan B”, that is a guaranteed loser! If we acquired or attempted to acquire weapons or weapons systems to fight the Somali pirates on an even footing, ‘They’ and ‘Them’ will come and shut us down. They wouldn’t need any more justification than that we tried!

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Wohl. I came here yearning to be free, with nothing more than a big sailor’s bag and $20 in change. Yes, some education. And no, not working toward a citizenship. Sorry to say it but its the reality,…I can go the same places, on my Romanian passport, for a better welcome. The only difference between me and you is that I cant vote. Thats it. And looking back @ 25 years of being here, If this is what this country got for voting all this time (this state of the nation) then voting was a BIG waste of time.

    But Fredoom is a very addictive drug and I am hooked, man. And there is a shortage of supplies around…. When that happens, junkies like me will look for their fix somewhere else.

    P.S.: On second thoughts, you might be right. I am a” wretched refuse” of a demented socialist ideology…

    #7839
    Avatar of GreenGestalt
    GreenGestalt
    Participant

    wohl1917 wrote:

    Green, you mention WACO…

    Thanks for responding.

    I’m more concerned with “Burning Man” over my viewpoints. They go out into the middle of the desert for a wild party, and then clean up after it’s done so there’s hardly a trace of their passing, and the thing is packed with Fuzz and Feds looking for reasons to bust people. At the same time they ignore people pushing jet engines on wheels and da Mob dumping people, hitchikers disappearing, etc….

    I think, even if we lay low and keep ourselves so squeaky clean we are “Amish on the Sea” we’ll still face harassment and genocide plots. And, laying low by your own arguments would make it more likely they’d try to kill us, thinking we’d be nice about it that we’d just be sheep that’d “Baa” a bit to the slaughter, not burn the slaughterhouse down with them and make sure cameras and vengeful admirers were watching. I don’t know if you’ve ever read “David Icke” but I do think there’s a really sinster “Force” behind governments. Granted the “Conspiracy Theory” stuff is often too flattering, implying a plot to plain stupidity. But too much of this seems deliberately sinister rather and yes bent on crushing “Freedom” itself, not out of any real logic and too directed to be stupid. Like breaking up “Rave” parties. It’s one thing if there’s a wild party in a big city and too many neighbors complain. It’s another thing if people set up an underground network to go to a deserted remote building or out in the woods and police forces have been spying on them to go out and break up the party. IMHO “Burning Man” would have been shut down, but it’s too public now, so they are hoping to incite a riot.

    There needs to be a deterrant (propaganda, UN protection, some trade agreements) to keep the large countries, mainly America from harassing us. We can’t hide, even in the “Garbage Swell” so we’ll have to promote ourselves to make it as costly as possible, esp in international lawsuits and trade barriers, to destroy us. The bankers themselves work against world stability interests, and rich elites work within countries against their national interest. The only thing I’d be low-key on the first decade is the “Anti-Capitalist” part and since open sea trading is still barter for the most part, we’d be fine. And it’s legal to arm yourself against pirates, esp as part of a soverign nation, the reason the shipping companies don’t do it is that they are like owners of convienence store chains and banks, they make more money if the system goes as planned than stopping it. That and it’s often a mess of passing through juristictions, taxes, etc. They just pay insurance money, the insurance profits far more from premiums than loses in ransom payouts and the crew usually doesn’t get killed.

    #7844
    Avatar of cthulhujunior
    cthulhujunior
    Participant

    Hi guys. I know the discussion’s drifted a bit from the UN being meddlesome as a part of it’s very design. However, I’d like to address a couple things.

    First, two out of four of those “Four Freedoms” require government intervention. The “Freedom of Speech and Religion” parts are fine and dandy, but FDR’s next two reveal the meddlesome leanings- “Freedom from Want and Fear.” These mean an alliance of the governments to ensure their citizenry are satisfied and secure, which goes to the idea of government providing something. Remember, anyone who provides something controls what he provides. The great thing about a market is that there’s multiple providers, leading to competition; governments usually want monopolies. Sure, there are JP Morgans and John Rockefellers, but these are exceptions, not the rule. Furthermore, they can only use force provided there is a force (government) to be used.

    Second, by definition, to unite anything is to make those things one. The UN is, literally, the “United Nations.” Therefore, uniting these nations is making them one. As the song goes, everyone wants to rule the world. Well, through the UN they’ve found a way for everyone to do it collectively, which satisfies their selfless ideals and personal wallets rather nicely. The only people left out are nuts like us.

    I agree, though: Luckily, the UN sucks. However, if they’re toothless they’re not worth dealing with; if not, they’re meddlers and ought to be feared as such. As I understand it, they’re basically the teeth of whoever’s the big superpower of the day and toothless on anything else. When China gets all big and scary, then so will the UN, at least as far as the UN are concerned. Ironically I’m not too worried about the Chinese, even though they’re the embodiment of almost everything I don’t like in a country. Yes, they’re freedom hating Commies; however, they’re more focused on stability and internal rule. They don’t have scary US imperialism. They’re too pro-Chinese to care too much about ruling other peoples. At least that’s how I understand it, and I might be mistaken.

    This gives me an idea, though: Agree to take political refuse. Offer to the governments of the world to take in the dissidents and freedom-loving nutjobs. Think Brave New World: Anyone not satisfied with the current dystopic system is outcast to the crappy wilderness. We’ll basically be running the crappy wilderness. Granted, except for China, everyone loves to give Freedom lip-service; however, candidly many politicians would love to just ship they’re enemies off somewhere. Well, we’re offering the somewhere. By this idea, the world leaders want “brain drain:” thinkers question everything, and rulers don’t want anyone to question their authority. They want mindless sheep who call 911 for help and wait politely for the cops to come as some nut kills their family. We want thinkers, businessmen, and industrialists. Well, at least I do.

    Oh, and Green, what do you mean about the “Anti-Capitalist” part? As I understand it, seasteading is an attempt to make governments subject to the market. That in itself is capitalist. If it’s anti-American sentiment you’re referring to, then I hear what you’re saying and yes it’s there and yes, maybe it ought to be kept quiet. I’d just like to point out that the American system isn’t purely capitalist, it’s protectionist. Capitalism lets things die, doesn’t matter who you are; Protectionism says you’re “too big to fail.” While I’m sure there’ll be the occasional Commie-Stead, there’s a whole bunch of capitalist systems that need to be tried out whereas socialism’s been attempted just about everywhere, including the US. Though the way the world’s developing, with the rise of China a Commie-Stead will actually be some “good press:” an attempt at ideological eco-friendly communal living.

    Hope this helps.

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