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permanently submerged concrete structures – living space bubble concept

Home Forums Research Engineering permanently submerged concrete structures – living space bubble concept

This topic contains 47 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Sam7 Sam7 3 years ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 48 total)
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  • #15534

    XNS, i agree completly that we have probably a too narrow approach when we take for given that seasteading will start with a “seastead” that we picture as a floating platform with rooms of some kind. In the same way as settling the west did not start with a special house design to be applied in the west seasteading will probably just take what is there already and apply it farer out than it was usual before.

    The key factor is the infrastructure. Settlement in the west was driven by the access road (railway) not by the house design. This line of thought has been also explored by the Seasteading Inc 1 / Seasteading inc 2 / comments.

    So the idea to have walkways on the water and empty building lots of waterspace between them where people can build floating structures of whatever kind they want – from a inverted skysscrapper to a houseboat – everything goes – some lots stay empty and are used for fishfarming it would be something along the development axis of “the breakwater lagoon” and the “oceanic port city”.

    The catamaran float / The plate float out / The real estate squaremeter deal / The Captain Nemo float out / The bubble hotel / The current turbine / Breakwater lagoon marina / Oceanic port city design /

    Seasteading like settling in the west will have all kind of tastes and colours – from corportate islands to family boat seasteads. A family living in a submarine yacht dedicated to submarine salvage, might be docked next door to a floating office complex full of data storage servers.

    It is of essence that the infrastructure grid is designed in a way that people with boats, floating islands, can move in and out at any time. So it would be more being docked in a floating marina development than being enclosed in a tight fit lego sistem.

    This way vote with your boat – would be easy and quick. A bad regulation and the next day dozends of highly mobile floats like boats, catamaran platforms, captain nemo float outs, would leave their artificial lagoons and go for another lagoon seastead. Less mobile floating concepts like Bubble hotels, floating skyscrappers would have to call in tug boats to leave their place in the grid …

    The real problem is structures on the surface are only save and comfortable (movement) when they are big compared to the wavelength – so they do not track the waves.

    This is where the submerged living space bubble concept comes in – for living space in family house scale outside protected areas where 20m waves can happen 5 times a year.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #15540
    Profile photo of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    I’ve been leaning more towards tower structures embedded in the seafloor, which of course would have a very large permanently submerged section. Something very much like the Draugen Condeep:

    Been looking for more detailed engineering specs on condeeps like this and Troll A. Most of what I’m seeing is 1m wall thickness at the base (200m to 300m depth). That seems reasonable.

    #15541
    Profile photo of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    This way vote with your boat – would be easy and quick. A bad regulation and the next day dozends of highly mobile floats like boats, catamaran platforms, captain nemo float outs, would leave their artificial lagoons and go for another lagoon seastead. Less mobile floating concepts like Bubble hotels, floating skyscrappers would have to call in tug boats to leave their place in the grid …

    If you have a structure like this:

    How do the seasteads in the inner sections get out when they want to leave?

    This is my big problem with any dynamic geography idea. Modules on the edges can easily disengage and float away whenever they want. But any module that is inside the clump cannot leave.

    #15542
    Profile photo of xns
    xns
    Participant

    Actually ellmer, could you send me a quote for a 200mx200mx50m waterproof, bouyant, concrete box that can be submerged till it’s flush with sealevel, delivered to Singapore waters? Just so I can get a rough estimate of the price and time it would take. We might need one as an offshore fish farm in 2016.

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    #15543
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    xns wrote:

    Actually ellmer, could you send me a quote for a 200mx200mx50m waterproof, bouyant, concrete box that can be submerged till it’s flush with sealevel, delivered to Singapore waters? Just so I can get a rough estimate of the price and time it would take. We might need one as an offshore fish farm in 2016.

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    ellmer does not seem to believe in concrete box designs. he is not in favor of flat walls that have no curvature. for those, you gotta talk to me. i think it could work.

    but i also think the 200 x 200 x 50m size is missing the point of incrementalism.

    ____________

    My Work II

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #15546

    hm… 2 million tons displacement? !!! – that would be an island – are you serious? – Nkossa has barley 161.000 tons. My rough estimate would be 547 USD / ton of displacement.

    That needs to be built modular on site.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #15547
    Profile photo of xns
    xns
    Participant

    Wouldn’t it be cheaper per ton of displacement the larger it got? Because of the way surface area to volume ratios work? And yes, I’m quie serious about getting one built, but we are on a pretty tight budget. My projected annual revenue is only S$2,000,000.

    But if something needed to be built modular, would it make mOre sense to build the hexatoon box around it first or build the structure so it would act as a floating drydock?

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    #15549
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    how did we get 2M tons, isnt this a hollow box or just all solid concrete, 50m deep?

    ____________

    My Work II

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #15551
    Profile photo of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    xns wrote:

    Actually ellmer, could you send me a quote for a 200mx200mx50m waterproof, bouyant, concrete box that can be submerged till it’s flush with sealevel, delivered to Singapore waters? Just so I can get a rough estimate of the price and time it would take. We might need one as an offshore fish farm in 2016.

    You need to determine the wall thickness so you can calculate the volume of material needed. Also, delivering something like that will be very hard. You would have to tow it by tug, or maybe use a heavy lifter. Very expensive. Much easier to build it on site.

    ellmer - http://yook3.com wrote:
    My rough estimate would be 547 USD / ton of displacement.

    I still don’t know why you charge by ton of displacement. I could design two different concrete boxes using the same volumes of material that both have very different displacements. The final charge for any concrete project should just be (cost of materials) + (labor). You can easily figure out the cost of materials by calculating the cubic volume of concrete needed for your box, plus any other materials like rebar or various additives. Labor will depend on who is doing it, and you would need a quote from your builders.

    ellmer - http://yook3.com wrote:
    That needs to be built modular on site.

    I don’t know about modular. A 200m x 200m x 50m box is about a simple a structure as you can get. I’d slipform it on site.

    Time-lapse video of a concrete silo being slipformed

    CGI video of how the cylindrical core of a building is slipformed

    This two-part video shows a group of people building a section of wall using the slip form technique. Part 1 Part 2

    This is just a section of wall, but creating a box is basically the same thing.

    The advantage of the continuous pour is that you don’t have any connections or seams in your box. It’s all one piece. It also doesn’t require any complex machinery. It is, however, a slow process and is very labor intensive. A box of your dimensions would take a long time. But since you have until 2016 it doesn’t sound like you are in a big rush.

    Here’s another video of two 125m towers going up using continuous pour, slip form techniques. It took 6 months to build them. I’m sure you could build your box in a year maybe…

    Also take into consideration that a hollow 200m x 200m x 50m box will collapse in a second. You will need an internal support structure to hold up a 50m high 200m span roof. You will probably want to make several internal sections, and those walls will probably all be concrete. All that material will also need to be factored into your material cost, the building of those walls will add to your labor costs, and it will also add weight which will alter your buoyancy. Make sure you have an engineer and/or architect look over your blueprints to ensure the structure is sound before you start pouring your first drop of concrete!

    #15552

    Well the way i understood XNS was a concrete box 200x200x50 floating similar to the tunnel segment of the marmaray tunnel project (almost even with watersurface). This means roughly: total concrete weight built in =displacment – this is different to Nkossa where total concrete weight is about 50% of the displacement (structure floating on middle line),

    kk

    xns, sure that is a very rough cost figure derivates from pilot projects done here in colombia for floating concrete structures. Obviously the cost structure in Singapore will be different. You could check on cost of a cubic meter pre-mix delivered in mix truck, the cost of a barge moving the mix truck to a floating building site, the estimated labor and machine cost to pump the concrete to the workplace, the cost of the forming and deforming team.
    Civil engineers in Singapore must have “standard figures” for this for calculating the cost of their high-rise building. If we plan a smart floating site and avoid mayor additional cost like dry-dock costs and structure launch costs you might be able to extract a quite exact cost figure. In general terms a concrete box at sea should cost about the same as a equal sized concrete box on land. Just check what a similar sized high-rise building would cost (200x200x50) in Singapore and you have probably a very realistic approximation.

    I would not build a box structure for a fishfarm – i would opt for a plate…much less concrete, much less displacement, same surface area.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #15558
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    incrementalism means starting something small and manageable and not having a massive FAIL that tears right through the seasteading movement. just my opinion. carry on.

    ____________

    My Work II

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #15559

    xns wrote:
    Apologies for being vague then, I needed the structure to be able to withstand the pressure if it were submerged. Because I expect the eventual draft, after equipment and additional structural additions to bring the draught down to 40m. And it looks like I got a rough quote back from a civil engineer at S$144,000,000. Heh, that’s several times over budget :p What’s your estimate though? And, would it be easier to build the hexatoons first? And shredder, displacement means the total amount of space an object occupies and the corresponding volume of water or air it moves aside(displaces). Not weight.

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    Let’s take it this way – the structure you describe has a volume of living space of 2.000.000 cubic meter – what would you pay in Singapore for a building with that volume? It would be about 800.000 squaremeter floorspace (2,5 room height) – 20 floors -

    What is the cost of a squaremeter floor space in the Singapore apartment market in a land based concrete box (highrise building).

    So my first question is do you really need this tremendous amount of building volume or is a floating plate of that dimension 200m x 200m x 2,5m = 40.000 squaremeter floorspace what you really need. This could be a structure of roughly 35.000 tons displacement . – cost somewhere in the 20 million USD range. – you break it down in 10 year project and in 10 modular steps so you could be fine with a 2mio yearly budget.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #15557
    Profile photo of xns
    xns
    Participant

    Apologies for being vague then, I needed the structure to be able to withstand the pressure if it were submerged. Because I expect the eventual draft, after equipment and additional structural additions to bring the draught down to 40m. And it looks like I got a rough quote back from a civil engineer at S$144,000,000. Heh, that’s several times over budget :p What’s your estimate though? And, would it be easier to build the hexatoons first? And shredder, displacement means the total amount of space an object occupies and the corresponding volume of water or air it moves aside(displaces). Not weight.

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    #15560
    Profile photo of xns
    xns
    Participant

    I’d definitely need the volume eventually, but as you’ve pointed out, it would make more sense to build the floors one at a time. Would UT be possible though? To add a floor on top every now and again if you needed to expand? That would make things very incremental…

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    #15561

    Sure piling up floors in a incremental process is possible – as long as the baseplate is made to support the load.

    You can take oasis of the seas as a base structure of 360x60m with floors piled up to 72m (must be some 20 plus floors) – your structure would mean three structures of that size class side by side. From size and stability it would be nothing that is outside possible – as long as you can get it financed. Your squaremeter floorspace prices would be lower than that of oasis of the seas which is built in expensive steel and classic shipbuilding technique – but you can certainly not build significantly below singapore higrise building squaremeter prices – only try to match them.

    It is also clear that a structure 3 times the size of oasis of the seas can not be built in drydock nor be launched like a ship – you need a floating building site organized the way like condeep sites cranes and concrete pumps on the site – barges with mix trucks bringing in the concrete and materials.

    It is also clear that a structure of that size can handle draupner waves – so submerging is not necessary in that size class. If you are going to build a city – why make it box shaped which minimizes the way how it can interact whith boats and ships – why not making a – sparse version instead a compact piled up one. Finally the only good reason for piling up floors is land cost. At sea horizontal space costs you nothing – so why pile up in first place? Why not create a lagoon city full of boats, yachts, and marina like ambient.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

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