open ocean capeable living space bubble
December 15, 2011 at 3:00 am #16805
much more than 50 liters/day to run a 20 m (60 footer).
If it’s a powerboat (a single screw trawler being the most economical) you need a 300 HP engine to move that baby and you are looking at around 10-15 gal./hr and onboard power generation, depending on your cruising speed. That’s a minimum of 240 gal./day= 900 liters/day. If it’s a sailboat it will be cheaper.
Now,…lol, Elspru, 200 watt it’s a BULB… In fact, 200 watts =.27 HP. That will push a 3 feet model boat.
Maybe you meant 200kw. Check this chart. http://www.dieselserviceandsupply.com/Diesel_Fuel_Consumption.aspx which is inline with around 15 gal/hr for a 300 HP engine.
That’s why sometime ago I mentioned that we should seriously consider solar-sailsteads.December 15, 2011 at 3:06 am #16806
4 weeks to get from FL to Maine. hows that sound to u Ocean?
Inventor of the “Bergstead”December 15, 2011 at 3:51 am #16810
Sailing, about 2-3 weeks, stoping here and there… With a powerboat, it all depends how fast you’re going, I guess.December 15, 2011 at 4:43 am #16811
ellmer – http://yook3.comParticipant
no 300 hp diesel engine is required for a submarine yacht – this is the energy requirement for a surface boat which is VERY different. To see the details on energetics conceps as mother nature invented it for whales ( submerged concepts ) check here., and here. – this is why mother nature did not develop surface swimming oceanic animals in 400 million years of evolution and always went submarine when colonizing the oceans (sharks, reptiles, turtles, whales) all took a submarine evolution path for good reasons – seasteading should take that advise and go submarine too… the surface is a bad place for a mobile nomadic concept …
The surface only starts to be a good option if a seastead gets city block sized – so can deal with freak waves – and stays stationary anchored .
concretesubmarine.comDecember 15, 2011 at 11:24 am #16812
If travelling on the surface is more expensive (what makes sense to me), then why people keep using cargoships instead of “cargosubs”? Does the cost of builing a submarine grows faster than linear as a function of the size, due to pressure forces, making a “huge sub” not affordable? Or is it because cargoships want to go faster, and at such speed submarine transport wouldn’t be that effective anymore? (If I remember well fluid resistence grows at a square function of the speed – I don’t know how wave resistence grows as a function of speed, I’m supposing it’s slower than a square function, making surface travelling more efficient after a certain speed)December 15, 2011 at 1:02 pm #16813
ellmer – http://yook3.comParticipant
Short answer, a ship is part of a global port and load handling infrastructure and is shaped to fit into that infrastructure and can not be shaped different without entering into expensive friction with the existing sistem.
A private vessel on the other hand is not necessaryly part of such a sistem that imposes criteria on it and can be shaped as the owner pleases.
A huge private living space bubble (i avoid the misleading word submarine due to the military picture it brings up) can be built at USD 480 / cubic meter living space – which is below the cost of building living spaces in major city centers.
I have been there, have done that, have built and sailed that kind of boat for many years.
The studies mentioned above suggest that there is a factor 5 in locomotion cost between surface and below surface.
A captain nemo float out can be built to any size – there are no hydrodynamic or pressure limits. We have tested the economics of such a vessel for many years in practice on a mooring site and it turned out to be much more economic than a similar sized surface yacht in all aspects, fuel cost, maintenance cost, aircon cost, etc…so it seems to be THE concpet to put affordable freak wave safe living space in mid ocean in a nomadic ship concept.
concretesubmarine.comDecember 16, 2011 at 7:33 am #16822
really hard to picture moving a 20 ton sub on a 60 HP (a fifth of 300 HP requirement for a surface vessel) and I didn’t get it,… Regardless, unless a sub is nuclear powered (or by other few fancy, expensive, prohibitive and secretive propulsion systems) it will be diesel powered on the surface and electric powered while submerge. So it will have to surface often to run the diesel engines to charge the batteries. And 60 HP on a 20 ton sub (now a surface vessel) will give you 2-3 knots, if so.
This whole scenario won’t get you too far…That’s the main reason that we don’t have cargosubs. Plus, to equip each cargosub with nuclear propulsion will be cost prohibitive.
Also, lets keep in mind that ” During normal weather conditions, a submerged submarine will not rock with the motion of the waves on the surface. In fact, during even moderate storms the submarine stays perfectly level at its submerged depth while the waves crash above. In extremely violent storms like hurricanes and cyclones, wave motion can reach 400 feet or more below the surface. Though not as violent as on the surface, these large waves can cause a submarine to take 5 to 10 degree rolls.” (as per navy comment, not mine) So, it won’t be that comfy unless you go deeper. For a big substead to go deeper than 400′ it will translate in extra $ millions spent on the technology to get there and stay there for a while.December 16, 2011 at 8:19 am #16823
… a cargosub would be hell, I didn’t think about it. Thanks for the answer.
@Oceanopolis, why do you say that everytime it’s submerged it needs electric power? Can’t a combustion engine works with a snorkel?December 16, 2011 at 3:20 pm #16824
But how long of a snorkle? 50′-100′-400′-600′? Can you drag 200′ of snorkle behind you while doing 5-10-15 knost under water? And what’s the point of the whole exercise, avoiding a storm? All this subseasteading it’s just a fantasy guys,…December 17, 2011 at 12:58 am #16838
In any case, Open Ocean Capable Living Space Bubbles, is a generic enough concept to include any kind of vessel.
While I personally like floating, I’m also interested in the possibility of submerging.
For an ocean-worthy-boat it’s best to be water-tight, even if it’s upside-down,
to be able to deal with large waves crashing overtop of it.
Can’t outrun every storm, so gotta have tactics for riding them out.
Submerging is also a great method for docking the boat without a fancy marina.
can simply set it down on the beach.
My idea is to have external manua ballast/bilge pump,
so can get out on the surface, and then pump out some water to set it down on the seabed,
then can only find it if know location, and how to operate the bilge-pump to get it back up, though it could have a lights, perhaps can make it look like a buoy or something.
In Canada people are very hesitant to get into the water, and buoy’s are well recognized markers. Need to have a white anchor light anyhow for collison avoidance. So would need some kind of electricity no matter what, if only to power the lights.
My thought on power is to have solar-panels.
Though we can also take the example of the whale, which has large lungs, and the ability to quickly flush them, and get new air, through a relatively descreate nozzle. So ya resurfacing would have to happen occasionally to exchange air, though it would require either a seperate air compartment for the engine, or some electronic controls, to make sure the engine doesn’t eat up the occupant’s air, seperate compartments are recommended, they could even be rubber bladders much like whale lungs, though heat might be an issue.
A stirling engine can use any heat-source including diesel, and firewood, it’s very efficient and has been used to propel submarines. A pilot flame could give a visual indication of the oxygen level, while at the same time propelling the craft.
Otherwise during transit I see submerging as more of an emergency activity, most of the time can float at the surface, and make use of seed-boat as your own personal island, can grow things on it,
hmmm, I’m gonna have to do some calculations to see what kind of sails I’d need to propel a ton of phiboat.
We with You are a Network, our goal to become technologically-enabled reproducible family communities. http://weyounet.infoDecember 17, 2011 at 1:48 am #16839
this sounds vaguely familiar
Inventor of the “Bergstead”
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