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open ocean capeable living space bubble

Home Forums Archive TSI Engineering open ocean capeable living space bubble

This topic contains 85 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of shredder7753 shredder7753 2 years, 4 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 61 through 75 (of 86 total)
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  • #12279
    Avatar of admiral-doty
    admiral-doty
    Participant

    Yes, for farming the deep water fish you mentioned, the mobile pens make sense. The Aquapods are great since they have enough structural strength to be towed or self propelled through thermoclines in the ocean, following the gyres.

    #12280
    Avatar of admiral-doty
    admiral-doty
    Participant

    admiral wrote:

    Ocean Farms has put a lot of design into their mooring systems …

    The mooring sistem looks like a version of the “tendon concept” (frequently seen in Oil/Gas platforms). Where a floating device (buoy, spar) holds a tendon under tension.

    This concept was suggested for mooring of floating breakwaters, floating tunnels… if the tendon is a buoyant polypropylen line, the sistem can work in depths[/quote]

    Yes, it is similar to a tension leg platform, but designed for the cables to go sideways to the submerged sphere, allow the cables to spin with the sphere, and allow the shere to move vertically to different depths or surface. The neutrally bouyant tendon/anchor line is a clever idea so the line doesn’t need to support its own weight.

    The tension leg was originally my preferred mooring system for a seastead city. An array of these connected in a spaceframe or tensegrity truss, with submerged floats and second set of floats at the surface for wave power generation would support a city above the maximum wave height.

    Then, later it seemed preferable to have a more mobile, megaship based plan. I had thought of a fleet of permanently moving ships going in a circle along the coasts, with modular housing using shipping containers, light industrial for onboard manufacturing, and port facility on the stern for ferrying cargo, living units, and people to and from shore. There can also be land based habitats where the shipping container units can stay until they are ready go back to a ship to live and move on. Also, the megaships would have a modular design so they could expand while travelling and split into two ships, multiplying like cells.

    When I was a teenager, I use to dream of living in an underwater city and travelling in a live-aboard sub like Captain Nemo, but then caught the space bug. Thanks, Wil, for showing that living in an underwater city or mobile sub can be feasible after all.

    #12281
    Avatar of tusavision
    tusavision
    Participant

    admiral wrote:

    admiral wrote:

    Ocean Farms has put a lot of design into their mooring systems …

    The mooring sistem looks like a version of the “tendon concept” (frequently seen in Oil/Gas platforms). Where a floating device (buoy, spar) holds a tendon under tension.

    This concept was suggested for mooring of floating breakwaters, floating tunnels… if the tendon is a buoyant polypropylen line, the sistem can work in depths[/quote]

    Yes, it is similar to a tension leg platform, but designed for the cables to go sideways to the submerged sphere, allow the cables to spin with the sphere, and allow the shere to move vertically to different depths or surface. The neutrally bouyant tendon/anchor line is a clever idea so the line doesn’t need to support its own weight.

    The tension leg was originally my preferred mooring system for a seastead city. An array of these connected in a spaceframe or tensegrity truss, with submerged floats and second set of floats at the surface for wave power generation would support a city above the maximum wave height.

    Then, later it seemed preferable to have a more mobile, megaship based plan. I had thought of a fleet of permanently moving ships going in a circle along the coasts, with modular housing using shipping containers, light industrial for onboard manufacturing, and port facility on the stern for ferrying cargo, living units, and people to and from shore. There can also be land based habitats where the shipping container units can stay until they are ready go back to a ship to live and move on. Also, the megaships would have a modular design so they could expand while travelling and split into two ships, multiplying like cells.

    When I was a teenager, I use to dream of living in an underwater city and travelling in a live-aboard sub like Captain Nemo, but then caught the space bug. Thanks, Wil, for showing that living in an underwater city or mobile sub can be feasible after all.

    [/quote]

    They certainly have quite a bit in common. The engineering for deep water habitats and Venus surface structures are virtually identical:

    The atmospheric mass is 93 times that of Earth’s atmosphere while the pressure at the planet’s surface is about 92 times that at Earth’s surface—a pressure equivalent to that at a depth of nearly 1 kilometer under Earth’s oceans.

    source:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus#Atmosphere_and_climate

    The two go hand in hand in my opinion.

    #12282

    admiral wrote:
    … travelling in a live-aboard sub like Captain Nemo, …

    Capitain Nemo in Jules Vernes Novel was a hunter and collector, he might be a aquapod farmer, a mining prospector, a tourism operator, a trader, in real life…

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #12407
    Avatar of R-B-Wood
    R-B-Wood
    Participant

    @ Will – You don’t need curved panels. What about doing a dome with hundreds of flat square or octogonal panels held in a metal or ferrocement frame?

    J.L. wrote:

    Why not consider glass? It’s cheap, recyclable, easy to find, strong,… Sure, It’d require custom cutting, but laminated flat panels are bullet proof….

    Glass is a material that can stand hundreds of years at sea maintenance free, it can be strong (when laminated) impact resistant, – if you can get curved laminated panels cheap – is doubtful…

    Glass has been used as pressure cover for oceanographic gear, as buoy for netting in the fishing industry. As bottle message for centuries – so it has a long record for surviving at sea in small structures – big marine structures made of glass has not yet been performed (i assume due to building cost). Combine concrete shell and glass to get the best of both worlds protection and transparency can be definitly an option.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    [/quote]

    @ Elspru – This is a good idea, except that each ‘module’ would have to be able to support more on top of it and you wouldn’t be able to have any exterior areas. Why not build one next to another and make a long chain of them floating on the water that can work together to move them all and can break up and go their own ways? Then you can have seasteads with rooftop gardens and solar panels and such. I don’t see any reason to build something several stories both above and below the surface when it’s easier to expand outwards.

    elspru wrote:

    The diner plate seastead is my favorite idea yet. Not scalable but perfect in so many ways. One suggested modification? Raise the outer wall up 30-40 meters and you will never get your lawn soaked in salt water.

    EDIT: the plate and submerged tower are complementary, not mutually exclusive. Put industrial space on the bottom, commercial space above that, residential space, schools etc. there they can get a little indirect sunlight and a big shared garden/park on top for everybody.

    Ya, well I’ve been thinking that can grow more of them, like the duckweed multiplies, or in a similar fashion,

    though I was thinking it might be easier to build on top of a floating seastead, so that it continues to be boyant.

    then can seperate them by submerging, and you have two seasteads you could have side-by-side or whichever configuration.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    [/quote]

    @ Admiral Doty – The fishery idea is awesome. My biggest fear for seasteads is that they would have lots of trade between themselves, but would eventually run out of hard currency for buying necessary materials from land without some major industry. These fisheries could be a viable solution. I see a floating breakwater surounding a plate seastead with those aquafarm cages all the way around and underneath it. Just attach them to the breakwater and suspend them with weights.

    How would that structure adapt to more of a longer cylider shape?

    It seems to me that you guys have brought everything together for a major seasteading operation: Plate seastead with a high wall and a dome over the top that can take any seastate. Aqua-Farms to feed the people and to harvest fish for export to keep the seastead alive. Ability to expand and build more seasteads at sea. All of the technology is there right? You just need to draw up a business plan and get some financial backing. I find it hard to believe that with a good business plan you couldn’t get a good sum of money for the fishery idea. I know seafood in the US is getting crazy expensive. You probably coudn’t market the fish as “wild caught” but maybe “Ocean Raised” instead of “Farm Raised”.

    #12408
    Avatar of Ken Sims
    Ken Sims
    Keymaster
    R wrote:

    You probably coudn’t market the fish as “wild caught” but maybe “Ocean Raised” instead of “Farm Raised”.

    “Free Range Fish”?

    #12410
    Avatar of admiral-doty
    admiral-doty
    Participant

    Actually, a business plan has been developed. You can download it at http://www.seasteading.org/sinkorswim-contest-winners#firstplace .

    The pod structure could be adapted to a cylinder, like buckyballs (fullerene) are the basis for carbon nanotubes.

    carbon nanotubes

    @ Admiral Doty – The fishery idea is awesome. My biggest fear for seasteads is that they would have lots of trade between themselves, but would eventually run out of hard currency for buying necessary materials from land without some major industry. These fisheries could be a viable solution. I see a floating breakwater surounding a plate seastead with those aquafarm cages all the way around and underneath it. Just attach them to the breakwater and suspend them with weights.

    How would that structure adapt to more of a longer cylider shape?

    It seems to me that you guys have brought everything together for a major seasteading operation: Plate seastead with a high wall and a dome over the top that can take any seastate. Aqua-Farms to feed the people and to harvest fish for export to keep the seastead alive. Ability to expand and build more seasteads at sea. All of the technology is there right? You just need to draw up a business plan and get some financial backing. I find it hard to believe that with a good business plan you couldn’t get a good sum of money for the fishery idea. I know seafood in the US is getting crazy expensive. You probably coudn’t market the fish as “wild caught” but maybe “Ocean Raised” instead of “Farm Raised”.

    #12921

    …”how do you connect submerged living space bubbles..”

    I repost the link here because it is part of the “submerged living space bubble” thread but popped up on the “artwork thread”

    seasteading.org/interact/forums/community/dreaming-/-crazy-ideas-/-speculation/artwork-share-your-stuff-if-you-dont-

    conclusion – there are existing engineering solutions like REMORA rescue sistem and segmented submerged tunnel construction – so it is basicly “off the shelf engineering”.

    Pictures: Remora / Marmay submerged tunnel

    This means that scalability is still possible if a seasteading structure is submerged. If you check the details it is eaven easier to connect a thousand ton segment to a segmented submerged tunnel than a thousand ton hollow segment to a structure on land. Water allows a much better handling.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #12923

    …ou just need to draw up a business plan and get some financial backing…

    I would consider the engineering and design the easy part – what is the hard part is the project management and implementation and especially the get finance part.

    Wil

    #12924

    caveden wrote:
    Inflatable boats instead? Why connecting submarines with complex structures? Wouldn’t it be easier cheaper to just have some inflatable boats attached to the sub with engines that could sink with it when needed? Whenever you want to visit your neighbor you go by boat… At least while we don’t yet have enough money to have submarine-cars and submarine-garages in our submarine-houses

    I agree it is a failure in the “thought model” to assume that just because you install your private space in a hull with the capacity to submerge you are kind of obligated to live without surface contact – doing everything submerged. You still might opt to NOT submerge except in a 100 year storm where you will probably opt to do so for survival reasons.

    A submersible living space bubble habitat blends nicely into the existing yacht ambients and can use all the existing infrastructure it is up to the owner if he preferes the life of a “normal yachtie” or of “captain nemo” both lifestyles are at hand ther is no “meet up limit” – on contrary – the remora and marmay tunnel connection will still work in a hundred year storm in open sea when surface floating structures must break up any kind of “gangway” between them.

    Although we mght have underwater cities connected with underwater tunnels in a future – the first submerged living spaces will be mobile and operate in a normal yacht ambient more or less this way : living in a submerged bubble other than yachts that minimize ocean activites and maximize marina stay for comfort reasons, mobile submerged living space bubbles would extend gradually their activity spectrum to the open ocean as the comfort difference ocean/marina for the crew is minimal. It is just like settlement in the great plains – once you have a waggon (which is a technical solution for average joe to do so) and a reason to go for it (land, gold, oil, fish, mining) – settlement starts gradually beginning on the boarders extending farer out over time.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    [/quote]

    #11695

    I would not see the structures above (seastar restaurant and jordan observatory) as a spar design also they look similar – in a typical spar the underwater part is not used for living – just to stabilize the platform. This means you have a lot of expensive structure to create a very small living space (suspended above the waves) so you get a incredibly bad cost per squaremeter what is not a big problem for oil industry but it IS for seasteading.

    I would call those structures above a submerged living space bubble with a relative thick snorkel that can contain a stairway for easy access to the submerged living space. Sea orbiter is a similar concept. The argument against submerged living space bubbles (i avoid the misleading word submarine) was “complicated to build” needs complicated machinery for buoyancy and depth control. It is obvious that those structures do not contain ANY machinery nor depth control mechanism they are “hanging on the snorkel” to keep depth – they are not complicated and not expensive to build they are able to survive ANY wave the ocean may bring up they are scaleable (a small one of a few meter diameter can host a family – a stadion size one can host a village) they can be connected among each other – they are not prone to violent horizontal movements, they do not need a lot of fuel for station keeping, they are not influenced by wind, they do not track waves…etc…

    All in all a LOT of good reasons to build a seastead in a similar (in part submerged) way.

    At the end seasteading burns down to a very basic engineering and real estate question – what is the most economic way to build a save living space bubble in the high seas ? can we compete with land based living space in the end?

    Possible there are multiple answers …. and answers we have not considered yet…

    We should start to investigate all concepts that bring living space to the high seas and compare their real estate prices in cost per cubic meter. I am sure there will be no elevated platform concept among the winners.

    Maybe we should take the 3 best concepts and do some practical development from there.

    I am sure that concrete flat rafts and (part) submerged concrete shells are two of the winning concepts.

    Breaking it down further there are several axes along which seasteading will probably develop:

    The catamaran float / The plate float out / The real estate squaremeter deal / The Captain Nemo float out / The bubble hotel / The current turbine / Breakwater lagoon marina / Oceanic port city design /

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #15227

    It is interesting that elspru made a small structure that was intended to be a “ferrocement dinghi” and ended up to be something like a small “living space bubble” .

    Just imagine this “dinghi” 10 times bigger – change the square entrance with a hatch – you end up with a shell structure you can live in and that can survive a 100 year storm in open ocean a few feet submerged…

    You might have it a bit more streamlined (like a blimp) to increase mobility and increase shell thickness to improve dive capeability …but that would already be the “captain nemo float out“…

    see more about the submerged living space bubble concept

    Wilfried Ellmer

    concretesubmarine.com

    #16777
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    how many miles can i go in my “captain nemo” machine between fill-ups for fuel oil? what is the cost per fill-up?

    ____________

    strongly interested concrete submarine buyer

    #16785
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    shredder7753 wrote:

    how many miles can i go in my “captain nemo” machine between fill-ups for fuel oil? what is the cost per fill-up?

    ____________

    strongly interested concrete submarine buyer

    Ideally there would be solar-power that can convert sunlight+water+air into basic sugars just like plants, which could be used as fuel.

    In case of emergencies there should always be a manual-override option, so can use peddle power to propel the craft.

    Captian-nemo-float outs, often also have folding sails, folding out of the way underwater, or used as a fin, and above water can be used as a sail.

    So for instance can sail to many locations, but in case of large storm can submerge and wait it out.

    As for fuel consumption, I checked out a diesel generator, makes 450 watts for 5 hours from 1.1 gallons. Ellmer was saying that a 200watt worked on the 20ton to get it up to 3 knots, that would roughly be 0.4L an hour, or 133ml per nautical mile.

    For crossing the pacific from Vancouver, Canada to Sydney, Australia, you’d need roughly 920Lt of fuel, At current diesel prices that would be just under a $1,000. Though it’s suggested to have at least one third extra, so more like $1,300.

    We with You are a Network, our goal to become technologically-enabled reproducible family communities. http://weyounet.info

    #16790

    For a deeper and compact insight on the captain nemo float out i have a collection of material to offer at the blue link.

    What concerns range : a 20 m boat comes with a general load capacity of 100 tons – so if you use about 50 kilo of fuel a day to cover your comfort and locomotion needs you can have 2000 days of service without refueling.

    This enables you to run the captain nemo seastead similar as a whale runs his business, you perform oceanic travel because staying on one spot or wandering thousands of miles would burn down to almost the same energy requirements.

    Therefore whales give birth in the tropics and refuel in the arctic where food is abundant. In a captain nemo float out sub you would refuel in Venezuela (at low fuel cost) and then travel around the world just on your reserves.

    Keep also in mind that using the right ocean currents a captain nemo boat could do voyages of thousands of miles without any fuel consumption. Just travel into the right current and go with the current until it delivers you on the other side of the ocean.

    All big oceanic animals sharks, whales, turtles, travel this way. See the voyage of the BEN FRANKLIN in the gulf current as a model.

    Although fultons boat had a sail – sailing for submarines did not really get popular…

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

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