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open ocean capeable living space bubble

Home Forums Archive TSI Engineering open ocean capeable living space bubble

This topic contains 85 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of shredder7753 shredder7753 3 years, 11 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 86 total)
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    Profile photo of elspru

    Farmer wrote:

    Alan desktop fabrication is still decades off I think. At least I hope; Economists talk about “disruptive technologies” desktop fabrication, even the most modest kinds would be downright catastrophic for pretty much all extant industries. It would be pretty much the end of the world as we know it economically.


    You’ll have to convert to Price Calculated Barter,

    become free people, producing your own products,

    just like a biological cell produces it’s own proteins.

    A resilient, adaptable, redundant and distributed society.

    Moving at your own pace as you replicate we your tribe.

    A very good thing in the end but slow change is good change.

    Ya, well I’m one of the full-time dedicated people towards the singularity.

    making human speakable programming language operating system,

    to be the foundation of an integrated general intelligence,

    capable of storing and expressing the required information,

    to fully reproduce a technologically and biologically enabled tribe.

    The diner plate seastead is my favorite idea yet. Not scalable but perfect in so many ways. One suggested modification? Raise the outer wall up 30-40 meters and you will never get your lawn soaked in salt water.

    hey I made a model of one

    EDIT: the plate and submerged tower are complementary, not mutually exclusive. Put industrial space on the bottom, commercial space above that, residential space, schools etc. there they can get a little indirect sunlight and a big shared garden/park on top for everybody.

    Ya, well I’ve been thinking that can grow more of them, like the duckweed multiplies, or in a similar fashion,

    though I was thinking it might be easier to build on top of a floating seastead, so that it continues to be boyant.

    then can seperate them by submerging, and you have two seasteads you could have side-by-side or whichever configuration.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move


    elspru wrote:

    diner plate seastead – hey I made a model of one…

    I really like your method of finding the way by experimenting. As you see a diner plate of any size is a rigid structure (shell structure) that can be made thin walled and still hold a surprising amount of force. Plate shapes have been performed in concrete and floated out in industrial scale with diameters up to 70m. The engineering of building them and floating them out is “of the shelf”. The building cost and technique is compareable to other civil engineering projects – so is their cost in squaremeter of living space. Slight variations like ring breakwater floating plates has also been successfully performed on industrial scale.



    European Submarine Structures AB


    When talking about protection from wave damage we should have clear that one thing is being protected from wave hazard and sea sickening movements what happens inmediatly when you are submerged – and the other thing is how deep in the ocean you might notice the pass of big waves.

    Wave hazards come from 2 factors:

    1) breaking crests that can hit a structure with hundreds of tons of force

    2) Hog and Sag, bending and torsion, forces which appear when a ship is supported by water (and bouyancy) at one end and in the air at the other end. Those forces can break a ship or lead to fatigue. They make a ship stamp and roll.

    If you leave the math and wave amplitude thing apart, you can easyly understand that neither wave crests nor hog and sag can exist anymore as soon as you have a thin water layer closing above you, even when this layer is just a foot deep. The structure will be supported uniformly by water at its whole length and this uniform support leads inmediatly to a much calmer behavior.

    This is what a diver experiences when he jumps from a rocking surface boat – there is inmediatly this incredible calm uniformly supported floating status when you go below the surface it dos not start gradually dozends of meters down – it is just below the surface. No wave is HITTING you anymore no wave is pushing you and your equpment around as it is the case when you swim on the surface. The only thing you experience below is a kind of current that changes direction with every wave. So you can “percieve the wave movement” when you have a visual reference to the sea bottom. If you don`t have this visual reference you will not notice the movement.

    I know a lot of divers that are suceptible to seasickness in a rolling diveboat and they are always the first to jump overboard – once you are below seasickness is gone.

    I experienced this in extreme form at Malpelo Island which is a island in the pacific 500 km off the coast of Colombia between Cocos and Galapagos – you have those real big pacific waves comming in directly towards a volcanic rock face. There is no doubt that any ship no matter the thickness of its steel plating would be hacked to small pieces within minutes. The divers jump overboard far from the rocks and swimm below the surface directly towards this rockfaces – this is where all those beautiful fishes are. You hang there 1-2m below the “hackzone” relaxed enjoy the smooth waiven of the waves comming in, you can feel the real big suckers in your ears, as the waterdepth changes while the crest goes trough. It is a wonderful place to mediate about the fact why nature never developed a surface swimming animal for the open sea – maybe living below is just so much better.

    The other experience i can contribute is the experience i had with the submarine yacht prototype – while i had the sub on its anchorplace and was tooling around inside i closed the hatch to avoid questions from courious visitors – i was there for an hour or so and when i opened the hatch i noticed that a storm had come up, several trees felt down, sailing yachts in the 30 foot range where calling SOS, and the local rescue crew was busy to assist. – I did not even notice the storm. And the hull was still on the surface exposing the sail (tower) and the central rounded part of the hull a bit above the surface. Obviously this did not present enough wave and weather attack surface to make the hull rock and roll.

    sub on anchorplace inside the sub on anchorplace diver below breaking waves structural weakness of a whale body no stifness required as supported by water


    The difference between being hit by the waves on the surface and being supported completly by liquid is paramount – this is why whales have structural weak bodies compared to a ship, they can live with a lot less structure.

    Modern shipbuilding is including ballast tanks into the design to deepload the vessel when necessary to avoid excessive bending in the violent surface layer and get a more uniform hull support.

    The question how deep is deep enough is most of all a practical question – i would say a few feet is enough for leaving your coffee cup on the table in 99% of the sea states you will experience, 10m will be enough for leaving the coffee cup on the table in the perfect storm. What means that there is no need to go beyond a depth where a decent snorkel is still possible.

    I know that there are people theroizizing that big waves reach deep down in the ocean – the point is theirs hazardous and seasickening action depends on intermittent air/iquid contacts with the hull – and those are gone inmediatly below the surface. What is left below is waiven that does no harm and no seasickness – any diver can tell you that.



    European Submarine Structures AB


    The question how big is the pressure pulse when a wave passes over you is interesting. The worst thing i have ever heared is a report from submarine Albacore running trough a hurricane. The man on the pressure gauge reported 16m pressure difference. The problem is we do not know which percentage of that was caused by the (widley documented) instability of the first albacore type sub hulls for holding a constant depth and which percentage was really caused by the waves.

    It is a fact that in a violent storm a big surface ship can experience a situation where the bow goes under and becomes “submarine” for a short period of time while the wave passes. If the wave is extremly big and steep the bow can “go several meters deep like a submarine” which can build up sufficient pressure to reach crush depth of the hull which is less than 10m for most surface ships and especially for the weak hatch covers of bulk carriers.

    The unexpected sudden loss of the Bulk carrier M.V Derbyshire in a cyclon might have been caused by this phenomena.

    Therefore it seems prudent to design anything that will have to go trough hurricanes with the ability to take at least short periods of submerged status down to 10m or more even if it is a “surface ship”. This is a design goal hard to achive for a surface ship.

    On the other hand a round concrete hull is good for submerging down to 1400m – so the pressure hazard of waves passing which may sum to a few meter in extreme cases will not cause any headache. Therefore i like the term “living space bubble” it suggests something round with a inherent capacity to submerge a few meters and hold the water pressure in this depth – which can be defined as “design need in violent storms”.

    A bulk carrier going submarine video ( bulk carrier going submarine in a violent storm ) a ship can avoid that conditions by speed and weather forecast – a seastead is better off to be prepared for it.

    If you look at the poor ship in that video – it gets the worst of all worlds. Direct hits of massive water by wave crests, hog and sag forces, and in occasion the waterpressure of being submerged several meters on the hatch covers. How far better would it be submerged. Of course this is not a design option for a ship designer as ships are designed for quick load unload operation in ports and to fit into the worldwide port and marine transport infrastructure.

    But a seastead can be designed without this kind of considerations we CAN design “living space bubbles” – a ship designer can not.



    European Submarine Structures AB

    Profile photo of

    I stumbled across the following concept at Gizmag;

    Oasis at sea: The Ark hotel concept


    It’s provocative, but I fail to see any structural logic in the design. Thoughts?



    The concept seems to lack a profound feasibility study – how is the engineering of the transparent part? – easy to do in photoshop – hard to do on a real world building site…with real world real estate funds and frames.

    The closest thing to a transparent bubble concept that i have knowledge of are those:

    Houston dome, Eden project, … they go with (ETFE) foil in aluminum frames – if this kind of bubble living space is strong enough to take a direct wave hit or submerge is doubthful so it might work as the cover of a big plate seastead where direct wave hits to the fragile transparent structure can be excluded. The picture in the middle above does not look like if direct wave hits to the transparent part can be excluded.

    Acrylics is a high strength material that can take direct wave hits but acrylic domes are limited to a 6 foot diameter size and single panels of a few meter are the (expensive) stars of top aquariums – no way to do them in Building size nor city size.

    A 6 foot acrylic dome can easyly cost 150.000 USD … a panel like the picture above a million… seasteading will only happen if real estate costs in squaremeter floorspace are similar to land based real estate prices – this excludes the abundant use of exotic building materials and quantum leap engineering in a seastead very much.

    So i fear we have to limit things to concrete shells for practical reasons… – what does not mean that the feel and style of such living space bubbles can not be light, futuristic and wave hit resistent at the same time.



    European Submarine Structures AB


    Marmaray submerged tunnel segment floating out – many submerged structures already exist – the engineering is solved…

    sea orbiter

    submerged tunnel acrylic

    Rion antirion bridge pylon (70m underwater 70m diameter of the disk it is hollow inside access by stairway ) the bridge is standing on the seaflor with no connection to allow moves in earthquakes.

    floating building site of the bridge pylon – would this be a seastead? (skip the bridge – take the disk)

    a 70 diameter disk is wider than the nkossa barge 50m (means much more stable) – so obviously open sea capeable on the surface and 70m submersible in spar mode.

    Building of the bridge pylon in drydock, floating out the disk, engineers inspecting the holow pylon base 70 m below the waves video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch this is engineering directly appieable for surface floating seasteads and submerged seasteads.



    European Submarine Structures AB

    Profile photo of

    Why not consider glass? It’s cheap, recyclable, easy to find, strong,… Sure, It’d require custom cutting, but laminated flat panels are bullet proof. Wire-reinforced is even stronger… There are new coatings that resist dirt collection… Salt washes off, so does bird crap…



    Never be afraid to try something new…

    Remember, amateurs built the ark, professionals built the Titanic.


    J.L. wrote:

    Why not consider glass? It’s cheap, recyclable, easy to find, strong,… Sure, It’d require custom cutting, but laminated flat panels are bullet proof….

    Glass is a material that can stand hundreds of years at sea maintenance free, it can be strong (when laminated) impact resistant, – if you can get curved laminated panels cheap – is doubtful…

    Glass has been used as pressure cover for oceanographic gear, as buoy for netting in the fishing industry. As bottle message for centuries – so it has a long record for surviving at sea in small structures – big marine structures made of glass has not yet been performed (i assume due to building cost). Combine concrete shell and glass to get the best of both worlds protection and transparency can be definitly an option.



    European Submarine Structures AB


    combine a open ocean aquaculture sistem with a submerged living space for comfort at sea – you get a business and a fine way to run it.

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    Ocean Farms has put a lot of design into their mooring systems as well as the pens themselves.

    single point mooring

    The above is a rotary joint for mooring

    The rotopent joint allows the whole sphere to rise to the surface and spin for cleaning by exposing a portion to the atmosphere a day at a time.

    Profile photo of

    Cliff has done some incredible work in the field of aquaculture and marine technology. He proposed a version of the spar bouy single family seastead a while back, complete with aquaculture pen:

    ocean drifter aquaculture pen

    Here’s a submerged structure from Ocean Farm Technologies which Cliff also worked with which has a proven track record of submerged service as an aquaculture pen, the Aquapod:

    aquapod aquaculture pen

    These pens can be towed intact behind a ship,

    aquapod towed by ship

    They can also be self-propelled with twin 4.6 kW electric motors and 2.4 meter props:

    aquapod propulsion

    Cliff’s presentation on mobile cage culture is at https://microsite.accenture.com/innovation/Documents/Clifford_A_Goudey_Massachusetts_Institute_of_Technology.pdf .

    His work is central to a business plan a partner and I submitted to the Sink or Swim Contest, Delishus Fishes.

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    Vince Cate put together info on the Aquapod thrusters on the wiki at http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Thrusters .There is also a thread on them at http://seasteading.org/interact/forums/engineering/structure-designs/efficient-thrusters .


    admiral wrote:

    Ocean Farms has put a lot of design into their mooring systems …

    The mooring sistem looks like a version of the “tendon concept” (frequently seen in Oil/Gas platforms). Where a floating device (buoy, spar) holds a tendon under tension.

    This concept was suggested for mooring of floating breakwaters, floating tunnels… if the tendon is a buoyant polypropylen line, the sistem can work in depths of thousands of meters and requires very little anchor handling logistic costs.



    European Submarine Structures AB

    Profile photo of Farmer

    Excellent information.

    I have been chewing on a way to ranch those fish that live their lives drifting on the edges of major ocean currents because it seems impossible. This is a good answer.

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